Ukrainian Su-25 warplane detected heading toward Malaysian Boeing

a reply to: darkorange

You have no clue what you're talking about. If you have an aircraft that has a bad thrust to weight ratio, having an oxygen mask on isn't going to magically make you able to climb to 40,000 feet.

The Su-25SM has a 0.7-1 thrust to weight ratio, and the Su-25 or Su-25T has a 0.69 thrust to weight ratio. That means that the plane's weight is close to the thrust the engines can produce. That means there is no way in hell you are going to get anywhere NEAR 12,000 meters, even with an oxygen mask on.

The Su-25 empty weight is 21,605 pounds (9800 kg). The normal take off weight is 32, 187 pounds (14,600 kg). That means for a normal take off weight, you have 46,657 pounds of thrust (roughly). You're not going to reach anywhere even REMOTELY close to 12,000 meters with that thrust. I don't care if you're wearing a mask or not.

Oh, and my books? Have an actual basis in aerospace engineering, not fantasy.

originally posted by: StratosFear
a reply to: spy66

While that does seem like a plausible explanation why would the Ukrainian AF use Su-25 ground attack aircraft as interceptors when they are equipped with the Mig-29? Also what Xcalibur254 said about the damage and details of the R-60 missile. IR guided missiles will hit the heat source, radar guided missiles hit the biggest radar cross section which is usually the fuselage. Most if not all A2A and SAM missiles will have a fragmentation warhead.

I`m not saying it was a SAM that shot the aircraft down, I'm saying its not very likely that a Su-25 shot it down, and either way with modern missiles smoke trials are something of the past, a missile contrail however is different.

And another point all add if Zaphod hasn't is the fact the Su-25 has a horrible time to climb ratio after a certain altitude, meaning that an airliner already upstairs cruising at its cruising speed could easily cruise on out of range before the Su-25 even gets up there.

Dont you understand the game here? This thread and whats going on the News is why a SU-25 is Perfect for this type of job. Who in hell is going to believe this....Right?

This Whole thing is a staged set up from start to end. Its just to bad that Close to 300 People had to be sacrificed to confuse the Public.

As long as there two different sides among the Public, the authorities can play their game without being cought. They are playing Your Words against theirs. There are no evidence right. Just Words.

a reply to: spy66

There is no way that an air to air missile does that to a 777. Their warheads are just too small. Even if it detonated near the cockpit (which is extremely unlikely in an air to air shot), it would not have instantaneously blown the aircraft apart, or caused all the damage that this missile did. What hit Malaysia 17 was a big missile, much bigger than any plane can carry.

The R-60 has between a 7 and 13 pound warhead. The R-77, which is one of the bigger air to air missiles has a warhead around 50 pounds. Korean Airlines 007 was hit with two air to air missiles, and flew on after being hit for several minutes before finally dropping off radar. And there's evidence that they may have ditched the aircraft near an island, despite the two missile hits.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: spy66

There is no way that an air to air missile does that to a 777. Their warheads are just too small. Even if it detonated near the cockpit (which is extremely unlikely in an air to air shot), it would not have instantaneously blown the aircraft apart, or caused all the damage that this missile did. What hit Malaysia 17 was a big missile, much bigger than any plane can carry.

The R-60 has between a 7 and 13 pound warhead. The R-77, which is one of the bigger air to air missiles has a warhead around 50 pounds. Korean Airlines 007 was hit with two air to air missiles, and flew on after being hit for several minutes before finally dropping off radar. And there's evidence that they may have ditched the aircraft near an island, despite the two missile hits.

I hear You but i dont believe you. Air to air missile have been used before to shoot Down comersial plains.

Russia have done it at least once.

Sept. 1, 1983 — Korean Air Lines flight 007 was shot down by a Soviet fighter plane near Moneron Island, Russia, killing 269 crew and passengers including U.S. Congressman Larry McDonald. The plane drifted into Soviet airspace due to pilot error.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: darkorange

You have no clue what you're talking about. If you have an aircraft that has a bad thrust to weight ratio, having an oxygen mask on isn't going to magically make you able to climb to 40,000 feet.

The Su-25SM has a 0.7-1 thrust to weight ratio, and the Su-25 or Su-25T has a 0.69 thrust to weight ratio. That means that the plane's weight is close to the thrust the engines can produce. That means there is no way in hell you are going to get anywhere NEAR 12,000 meters, even with an oxygen mask on.

The Su-25 empty weight is 21,605 pounds (9800 kg). The normal take off weight is 32, 187 pounds (14,600 kg). That means for a normal take off weight, you have 46,657 pounds of thrust (roughly). You're not going to reach anywhere even REMOTELY close to 12,000 meters with that thrust. I don't care if you're wearing a mask or not.

Oh, and my books? Have an actual basis in aerospace engineering, not fantasy.

Jeez, calm down.

I am citing what experts say who built and tested the fighter. That's all. You are acting like you were the one who designed it.

Easy pal.

cheers.

a reply to: darkorange

The ones that build it say that it can barely reach 10,000 meters for a short time. That's it.

originally posted by: darkorange

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: darkorange

You have no clue what you're talking about. If you have an aircraft that has a bad thrust to weight ratio, having an oxygen mask on isn't going to magically make you able to climb to 40,000 feet.

The Su-25SM has a 0.7-1 thrust to weight ratio, and the Su-25 or Su-25T has a 0.69 thrust to weight ratio. That means that the plane's weight is close to the thrust the engines can produce. That means there is no way in hell you are going to get anywhere NEAR 12,000 meters, even with an oxygen mask on.

The Su-25 empty weight is 21,605 pounds (9800 kg). The normal take off weight is 32, 187 pounds (14,600 kg). That means for a normal take off weight, you have 46,657 pounds of thrust (roughly). You're not going to reach anywhere even REMOTELY close to 12,000 meters with that thrust. I don't care if you're wearing a mask or not.

Oh, and my books? Have an actual basis in aerospace engineering, not fantasy.

Jeez, calm down.

I am citing what experts say who built and tested the fighter. That's all. You are acting like you were the one who designed it.

Easy pal.

cheers.

That guy dosent know what he is talking about. The SU dont have to be at 33000 ft to shot at the Mh17.

The evidence that the russian briefing showed was that no fighter jet appeard until after the MH17 was hit and freefalling.

It was when MH17 was freefalling With 200km/h that a New mark showed up right by the MH17 mark.

This means that if the SU did the shooting. It did so from bellow 16404 ft. Bellow 5000m.

a reply to: spy66

Which if you bothered to read ALL of my post, you would see that I cited that flight. And you would have seen that I said it took two missile hits, and flew for several minutes afterwards. It didn't suddenly drop off radar, and it didn't just suddenly blow apart in flight. The crew even radioed Tokyo ATC after being hit. That was after being hit by two missiles with 88 pound warheads on them. The R-60 warhead is a fraction of that size, but you expect us to believe that it hit a plane similar in size to a 747, and exploded instantly?

I didn't say that an air to air missile COULDN'T shoot down a commercial flight. I said that it wouldn't do this. It wouldn't caused a plane the size of the 777 to disintegrate instantly.

a reply to: spy66

It was when MH17 was freefalling With 200km/h that a New mark showed up right by the MH17 mark.

It couldn't possibly have been parts of the plane picked up on radar as they fell to the ground. It HAD to be an Su-25. I mean the fact that it was right next to where that amazing 6 pound warhead caused it to disintegrate means it had to be a fighter.

And I didn't say that the Su-25 had to be at 33,000 to shoot now did I. I was refuting what was said about service ceiling.

You really should stop putting words into people's mouths.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: darkorange

The ones that build it say that it can barely reach 10,000 meters for a short time. That's it.

So, basically it is Cessna only with primitive unguided rockets attached. OK. You win.
wiki en.wikipedia.org...



cheers)

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: spy66

Which if you bothered to read ALL of my post, you would see that I cited that flight. And you would have seen that I said it took two missile hits, and flew for several minutes afterwards. It didn't suddenly drop off radar, and it didn't just suddenly blow apart in flight. The crew even radioed Tokyo ATC after being hit. That was after being hit by two missiles with 88 pound warheads on them. The R-60 warhead is a fraction of that size, but you expect us to believe that it hit a plane similar in size to a 747, and exploded instantly?

I didn't say that an air to air missile COULDN'T shoot down a commercial flight. I said that it wouldn't do this. It wouldn't caused a plane the size of the 777 to disintegrate instantly.

I am not saying that you have to believe it. That is the point With the Whole thing. That is why its very clever to use the SU-25. Because People like you would not believe it.

This event is not random, It is not an accident, it's pre-planned With People like you in mind. This event would not have worked if evertyhing added up. It would be to easy to pick apart and Place the blame.

a reply to: darkorange

Wow, you guys are really good at putting words in other people's mouths.

The Su-25 is a great ground attack plane. Ground attack planes are designed to fly low, and fairly slow so they can attack targets on the ground. Which is exactly what the Su-25 does, and does well.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: darkorange

The ones that build it say that it can barely reach 10,000 meters for a short time. That's it.

....without face oxygen mask, because the cabin is not air pressure proof.

if the pilot wears oxygen mask, higher altitudes can be achieved up to 12000 meters.

a reply to: darkorange

Sorry, but even for Russians, it doesn't work that way. It's all about thrust to weight ratio, and I've already shown that the Su-25 doesn't have the ratio to get that high.

Ceiling has nothing to do with the pilots having a mask or not. It's the absolute altitude that the aircraft can safely maintain level flight. Service ceiling is the highest altitude a plane can reach with a 100 ft/min climb rate.

originally posted by: darkorange

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: darkorange

The ones that build it say that it can barely reach 10,000 meters for a short time. That's it.

....without face oxygen mask, because the cabin is not air pressure proof.

if the pilot wears oxygen mask, higher altitudes can be achieved up to 12000 meters.

yes...but 12000 m is 39370 ft. The Su25 (all variants) will not go this high - unless they have HIGHLY modified engines - which as far as I know, none do. How is this hard to understand?

another sofa expert. Did you read my previous post?


2nd.

originally posted by: darkorange
another sofa expert. Did you read my previous post?


2nd.

Lovely, your polite too.

Yes I did read your previous posts. So...

I would love to know where you are getting your info from. I can't find anything that says the Su-25 is capable of the SERVICE CEILING you are claiming it can achieve.

Service Ceiling


Even if it was approaching ABSOLUTE CEILING, how could it possibly maneuver well enough to fire AND hit the target? Again, assuming the "Su25" isn't rigged with afterburners and or BVR missiles.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: darkorange

Sorry, but even for Russians, it doesn't work that way. It's all about thrust to weight ratio, and I've already shown that the Su-25 doesn't have the ratio to get that high.

Ceiling has nothing to do with the pilots having a mask or not. It's the absolute altitude that the aircraft can safely maintain level flight. Service ceiling is the highest altitude a plane can reach with a 100 ft/min climb rate.

So there is no way possible for the SU to fly above 5000m = 16404 ft With just air to air missiles. Its exstra weight would be 2 x 43,5 kg = 87 kg in tottal.

Not even if the SU starts to climbe over a long distance and not vertically?

How does the SU get of the ground fully loaded ?

SU-25 top altitude is 10000 meters with full load out, 12600 meters with 2 R60s, and peak altitude on a bell at 14000 meters clean.

Go here, read, buy sim, load, test your self;

lockon.co.uk...

If in doubt, the very same company was contracted by Unites States National Guard to supply a full featured flight sim for A-10 Thunderbolt.

This product has been released over 15 years ago and is a well established benchmark in the military aviation flight simulators.

All flight data modeling is based on actual test flight data gathered from actual platforms by direct data transfer.

Get the sim, create a mission and test it out your selves.

SU-25 can easily intercept a huge commercial liner at cruise altitude.