Ukrainian Su-25 warplane detected heading toward Malaysian Boeing

a reply to: Zaphod58

So, looking at all the data being brought up to public until today, in your opinion, is there something that doesn't add up?

Your knowledge on the matter is indisputable, so I would like for someone with your knowledge to weight this for me:

People are saying Russians must be involved because BUK systems are complex and they need expert operators to successfully operate it. Right?

Wouldn't those same experts - or operators trained by experts - also be very well capable of making the distinction between a civilian 777 and something like the aircraft's used by Ukraine?

I'm just saying this because, if it was a system like a Stinger I would get it. A couple of separatists idiots look at the sky, see an aircraft flying above a route that was being avoided, so it had to be Ukraine's military, right? They pull the trigger and bam.

But this wasn't the case. It's a BUK system. Something that is fairly advanced and should be able to distinguish targets very easily. Especially considering that the MH17 was at a FL that would make it impossible to be sighted by naked eye.

I mean, if it was a simple system, you could make such a mistake. But since you need lots of training, you also get to know your weapon system, and if you know your weapon system, you can tell the difference between a civilian airliner and a Sukhoi or something like that... right?

It just seems surreal to me that an operator would do something like that so lightly. I'm assuming those BUK missiles aren't cheap, and you can't just simply press a red button and launch them just because you think it's a Ukraine fighter/bomber is flying above you.

a reply to: VashKonnor

I think it was just an accident. Shockingly the BUK has no way to identify aircraft. It was designed to be extremely simple to operate, so they left off the two most common systems that would have identified the aircraft as non military.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: VashKonnor

I think it was just an accident. Shockingly the BUK has no way to identify aircraft. It was designed to be extremely simple to operate, so they left off the two most common systems that would have identified the aircraft as non military.

Were are the evidence that it was a BUK.

The Ukrainians might have been hiding behind the civilian liners.

The idiot Russians don't care, they just started shooting down anything. Putin armed these animals - and animals they are. Now they are stealing and using credit cards and belongings from the people they killed.

I wonder how the Russian scumbags would feel if the Europeans started running Russian registered cars off the roads of Europe. If they cause an accident and the Russians get killed, then stop, pull out their gold teeth and steal their credit cards.

Same thing.
Putin's dirty work.
Funny thing is, his daughter actually lives in the Netherlands. Or at least she did, until the Ukrainians found her. If she has half a brain, she hightailed it back to Russia.

a reply to: Matamoros

Well that explains why they were sawing the cockpit of the plane. Trophy for the boss.

a reply to: spy66

Where is the evidence it wasn't?

Take it for what it is worth. It seems plausible in relation to some of the alleged eye witness accounts.

Ukrainian Air Defense Exercises Might be Behind Malaysian Aircraft Crash – Source

en.ria.ru...

originally posted by: rustyclutch

originally posted by: Indigo5

originally posted by: rustyclutch

originally posted by: Indigo5

originally posted by: rustyclutch
a reply to: Indigo5

I won't even waste any time rebutting any of your above statements.

Yah...those annoyingly "objective" facts, evidence, audio, and imagery don't warrant a response? Not to mention the effen rebel leaders bragging about shooting down the plane on social networks and then desperately deleting posts when they realized they shot down a civilian airliner.

How do you even know who made those posts? Do people's twitter accounts never get hacked?

So those social media sites were hacked at the precise moment the plane was shot down? And then those same hackers immediately deleted the posts when it was discovered it was a passenger jet?

Are you implying the C.I.A. isn't capable of hacking a random twitter feed?

They are certainly capable, but to do so at that precise moment, before the world was aware a passenger jet had been shot down, would mean that the CIA had pre-knowledge that the airliner would be shot down...thus meaning the CIA co-ordinated the shooting down of the passenger jet. That is what you propose? And while proposing such an implausible theorey, can you provide any direct evidence? Since you seem to dismiss the tonnage of evidence demonstrating it was the Rebels, I imagine you must have very strong evidence demonstrating that the CIA decided to shoot down a passenger jet.

a reply to: Cablespider

Ukrainian Air Defense Exercises Might be Behind Malaysian Aircraft Crash – Source

Here's the thing with that...Why on earth would Ukraine have an air defense exercise so close to where other planes have been shot down?

If you know you may be a target you aren't going to go near an active war zone just to do exercises as they have many other places to do that.

originally posted by: tsurfer2000h
a reply to: Cablespider

Ukrainian Air Defense Exercises Might be Behind Malaysian Aircraft Crash – Source

Here's the thing with that...Why on earth would Ukraine have an air defense exercise so close to where other planes have been shot down?

If you know you may be a target you aren't going to go near an active war zone just to do exercises as they have many other places to do that.

Why would MH17 fly that Close to where other Plains have been shot Down?

Why was MH17 ordered to change cource 14 km to the North into the location of these BUK batteries?

Why would the Ukrains start to engage the pro-russians where MH17 crashed. They agreed no to do so?
The US have not Condemned that either.

THere are many questions that are still not answered.


Yesterday the Ukrains began to use short range ballistic missiles agains pro-russion held cities. I Wonder why the US have not commented on that??

originally posted by: tsurfer2000h
a reply to: Cablespider

Ukrainian Air Defense Exercises Might be Behind Malaysian Aircraft Crash – Source

Here's the thing with that...Why on earth would Ukraine have an air defense exercise so close to where other planes have been shot down?

If you know you may be a target you aren't going to go near an active war zone just to do exercises as they have many other places to do that.

The "Air Defence Exercise" story isn't designed to stand the test of time, it's simply a tread on the Stairway to the Truth.

First it was "The Rebels", then "The Russians". Now it's the "Ukrainians by Accident" and next will be the "Ukrainians Deliberately", but if we ever make it to the final step I have no doubt it will be "USA All the Way".

originally posted by: CharlieSpeirs
a reply to: buddah6
The SU can reach 10km, or 32.8 thousand feet...
MH17 was at 33k feet and told to reduce by 600 metres...
Not politics, just physics!!!
Peace everybody!!!

I've seen from multiple sources that MH17 had a 2 fighter Ukrainian escort as did all flights passing through Ukriane.
Here is one:

theaviationist.com...

a reply to: spy66

Why would MH17 fly that Close to where other Plains have been shot Down?

Because it was their flight plan, and they didn expect a plane that high to not be safe since there were many other carriers that flew that route.

Also at the time the separatists only had MANPADS which couldn't go that high.

In fact there were other planes flying in that area at the same time.

Why was MH17 ordered to change cource 14 km to the North into the location of these BUK batteries?

They weren't and that has already been shown in many other Ukraine threads.

Why would the Ukrains start to engage the pro-russians where MH17 crashed. They agreed no to do so?

Because the separatists wouldn't stop fighting with them.

Also know that when they had the first cease fire the separatists decided against that and kept on fighting.

DONETSK, Ukraine (AP) — Pro-Russian separatists in Ukraine's embattled east have dismissed a unilateral cease-fire ordered by President Petro Poroshenko as fake, while nine Ukrainian service members were wounded in clashes just before and after the cease-fire began.

news.yahoo.com...

Yesterday the Ukrains began to use short range ballistic missiles agains pro-russion held cities.

Any source for that?

a reply to: PleiaDsClusterDck

That's also sourced back to Iranian defense expert, who says "I believe" and "they were ready to escort planes". He doesn't have any more evidence than we do that they were actually escorting.

But he's also talking about Su-27s not Su-25s, which are totally different animals.

a reply to: PleiaDsClusterDck

I've seen from multiple sources that MH17 had a 2 fighter Ukrainian escort as did all flights passing through Ukriane.
Here is one:

Here is what I find interesting...

Iranian defense expert Babak Taghvaee believes the mistake was caused by the fact the Malaysian Boeing 777 was escorted over eastern Ukraine. Taghvaee is always very well informed and an extremely reliable source. Therefore, after he provided some details about this activity of the Ukrainian Air Force on ACIG forum thread about the war in Ukraine, we contacted him for some more insight.

Now how come these planes weren't identified as being the ones following MH 17 when the Russian trotted out their radar lies about it being an SU 25, wouldn't they have known the difference?

I also I find this interesting...

In other words: since the Russian interceptors had downed a Su-25 on the previous days, the Ukrainian escorted all military and civil flights over eastern Ukraine on Jul. 17. Including MH17.

So again why didn't these planes show up on the Russian radar that supposedly tracked MH 17, because we all heard the Russian general that said it was a single SU 25, or do SU 27 have cloaking abilities?

a reply to: Zaphod58

But he's also talking about Su-27s not Su-25s, which are totally different animals.

And this would show if true that the Russians are making up the evidence of a single plane the SU 25 being near MH 17 before the shoot down.

I am thinking Russia should use this Iranian expert for their next evidence showing, because at least he said planes that could actually fly high enough to escort a jet at 33,000 ft.

Now here is what I really find funny...If there were two SU 27's escorting MH 17 why wouldn't they have returned fire when the airliner was shot down.

a reply to: Psynic

The "Air Defence Exercise" story isn't designed to stand the test of time, it's simply a tread on the Stairway to the Truth.

Russia really doesn't want the truth to come out as it wouldn't bode well for Putin.

First it was "The Rebels", then "The Russians". Now it's the "Ukrainians by Accident" and next will be the "Ukrainians Deliberately", but if we ever make it to the final step I have no doubt it will be "USA All the Way".

It's always been the separatists, but they are supplied by Russia so ultimately Russia is to blame. The US has no reason to get involved militarily and unless something happens that calls for the US to become militarily involved we watch from the sidelines.

a reply to: StateOfWar

Get the sim, create a mission and test it out your selves.

SU-25 can easily intercept a huge commercial liner at cruise altitude

Why do all that when you can just go to the manufacturer...

www.sukhoi.org...

But since you seem to know more than the folks who built it, it might be a good time to call them and tell them they don't know the capabilities of their own plane.

a reply to: tsurfer2000h

Here you have a Source for the use of short range ballistic missiles.

a reply to: Xcalibur254

So how do think the Su-25 is going to catch up with a 777

And...how exactly do you know the SU-25 would 'have to catch MH17 up'?

Why would that be then?

Any smart mission commander would take off and position his or her aircraft ahead of MH17, and circled around in front of it, waiting for MH17 to catch IT up...they wouldn't have chased it, they would have come at it from in FRONT of it...in front and slightly from the sides probably, but that's a guess.