VIDEO: NY man dies after police place him in chokehold for selling untaxed cigarettes

originally posted by: doompornjunkie
a reply to: alienjuggalo

This is not a case of police brutality! The officer never slammed his head into the ground, and didn't even keep him in the hold for long, just long enough to bring the man down. This is just a tragic death. Although 9 times out of 10 I agree with the OPs in this forum, this time I cannot. That officer followed sound procedures throughout the arrest. A head lock to bring someone down, then pinning their head to the ground is quite effective and normally safe. It is widely taught in self defense and in martial arts. Control their head and you control their body.

Arrest that cop for murder!
No, at best it would be involuntary man-slaughter.

Where are the tazers?!
Good one, use a tazer, then when ever someone dies from use of a tazer everyone gets all uppity and demands justice.

S*** happens...s*** just happens sometimes.

People need to remember that instead of yelling brutality in cases such as this. Save all the cackling for true police brutality cases, like the horrific ones that seem to be pouring in more and more frequently.

Please watch starting .38 where the arm goes around his neck and on from there frame by frame. That arm tightens into a strangle.
Now first off the guy never hit anyone that I can see nor threatened with a weapon, why were so many police called? he said he was not selling anything, I don't see the supposed cigarettes.

WHY is there always 20 police arriving in a few seconds when they have someone they simply suspect of a non violent crime?

originally posted by: alienjuggalo

originally posted by: mikeone718

originally posted by: CallmeRaskolnikov
i swear to god working in NYC scares the sh!t outta me sometimes.

I work in one of the worst areas of NYC (Harlem) and have yet to be scared or intimidated by the police.

This man's death is unfortunate but at the same time, he was very large, belligerent and uncooperative.

When the hell did it become illegal to be very large, belligerent and uncooperative. It is not illegal to be uncooperative.

Again he had no smokes and none in his car and witnesses said he was breaking up a fight.

I don't have to do what a cop tells me just because he fkn told me to.

Right, and someday we may see a thread on here of an ICP fan who was tazed, fell on his head and in critical condition after an altercation with police at a wal mart.

Being uncooperative might not be illegal but why give them a reason to hit you with a resisting charge?

originally posted by: mikeone718

originally posted by: alienjuggalo

originally posted by: mikeone718

originally posted by: CallmeRaskolnikov
i swear to god working in NYC scares the sh!t outta me sometimes.

I work in one of the worst areas of NYC (Harlem) and have yet to be scared or intimidated by the police.

This man's death is unfortunate but at the same time, he was very large, belligerent and uncooperative.

When the hell did it become illegal to be very large, belligerent and uncooperative. It is not illegal to be uncooperative.

Again he had no smokes and none in his car and witnesses said he was breaking up a fight.

I don't have to do what a cop tells me just because he fkn told me to.

Right, and someday we may see a thread on here of an ICP fan who was tazed, fell on his head and in critical condition after an altercation with police at a wal mart.

Being uncooperative might not be illegal but why give them a reason to hit you with a resisting charge?

Because eff them that's why.

a reply to: mikeone718

Because the more you just bend over and take it the further they will push it. More and more of our rights continue to be eroded and people seem fine with it. I don't understand it.

a reply to: mikeone718

This is getting awfully close to accepting that we have to beg for our rights.

The police kill about 500 US citizens a year. What I wonder is, did/do the military folks have the same "stop to death" ratio in Iraq or Afghanistan? Were this same scenario to shop up in an Afghanistan village would the "suspect" be just as likely to die?

How have we gotten to the point where death by cop is seen as not only reasonable public policy but the BEST public policy.

How have we gotten to the point where collecting taxes and fines, this is the cops real job, is to be done under threat of death?

Why do so many people value their own life so little that they speak out in favor of these actions and policies, knowing that they are soon to be on the receiving end of a stop and kill by public policy?

a reply to: alienjuggalo

Yup you can assume whatever you like...

a reply to: alienjuggalo

After looking at the video again, it does not look like the choke hold killed him. He was still moving after the police man mushed his head into the ground...the clip does say in small letters that he was 400 lbs and asthmatic...this may be a case of positional asphyxia.

If you listen to the video it's seemed to be more about the person allegedly breaking up a fight...not sure if the police were under the impression that he participated in fight? It does not appear that this was just over the person selling cigarettes according to the camera person..


And now watching the video for the last time I would say with that it was his asthma and his position that lead to his death, not the choke hold..regardless how he died still somebody's dad or son..

a reply to: chrismarco

After looking at the video again, it does not look like the choke hold killed him

That's like saying well I shot him but he was still alive when I left so I did not kill him. If the cop had not put him in a chokehold he would not be dead.

So of course the chokehold is what killed him.

originally posted by: Pimpish
a reply to: mikeone718
Because the more you just bend over and take it the further they will push it. More and more of our rights continue to be eroded and people seem fine with it. I don't understand it.

They are not fine with it.

Everyone is trying to figure out how to deal with it without becoming violent themselves. Especially in a world where the venue that it is intended to be handled without violence has itself fallen back on those tactics.

NO... people are NOT fine with it... but most people aren't spending every day of their lives trying to figure out how to use violence, deception, and fear tactics to build a career and earn a paycheck. Most people also don't have 20 armed trained fighters ready to jump in and defend them in that moment if they DO stand up for themselves.

Taking someone to court isn't really a priority while you are actively being intimidated or outright assaulted. Especially when we all already know it's a futile effort anyway and liable to just bring *more* attention and harassment down on your head. The police are being provoked by people who want the police to view every human as a threat... the people are being provoked to view every police as a threat... etc.

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
a reply to: mikeone718

This is getting awfully close to accepting that we have to beg for our rights.

I'd take it more as keeping a level head and letting a lawyer do the talking later.

a reply to: alienjuggalo

Look up positional asphyxia, I had some training around this subject many years ago..This guy was thrown to the grown with asthma and obviously overweight...I think he died as a result of his position on the ground and his asthma...I'm sure the choke hold didn't help the situation. You can clearly hear him say "I can't breath several times while on his side on the ground".

Positional asphyxia, also known as postural asphyxia, is a form of asphyxia which occurs when someone's position prevents the person from breathing adequately. A significant number of people die suddenly during restraint by police, prison (corrections) officers and health care staff.[1] Positional asphyxia may be a factor in some of these deaths.

Positional asphyxia is a potential danger of some physical restraint techniques, People may die from positional asphyxia by simply getting themselves into a breathing-restricted position they cannot get out of, either through carelessness or as a consequence of another accident. Research has suggested that restraining a person in a face down position is likely to cause greater restriction of breathing than restraining a person face up.[2] Multiple cases have been associated with the hogtie or hobble prone restraint position.[3][4] Many law enforcement and health personnel are now taught to avoid restraining people face down or to do so only for a very short period of time.

[1] Risk factors which may increase the chance of death include obesity, prior cardiac or respiratory problems, and the use of illicit drugs such as coc aine.[5] [5] Other issues in the way the subject is restrained can also increase the risk of death, for example kneeling or otherwise placing weight on the subject and particularly any type of restraint hold around the subject's neck. Research measuring the effect of restraint positions on lung function suggests that restraint which involves bending the restrained person or placing body weight on them, has more effect on their breathing than face down positioning alone.[6] Other restraint positions

Positional asphyxia is not limited to restraint in a face down position. Restraining a person in a seated position may also reduce the ability to breathe, if the person is pushed forwards with the chest on or close to the knees. The risk will be higher in cases where the restrained person has a high body mass index (BMI) and/or large waist girth. [7]

I'm not justifying any of this stuff but giving this explination but as usual the public court of ATS has already determined his cause of death..I'm simply stating it may be another reason...and is it possible that without the choke hold we may have seen a similar turn of events minus the choke hold?

We don't know what led up to the incident and we don't know the history the person has with the police...

I'd bet from the short amount of time watching him in this video that he was a gentle giant. Probably tried to help any and all who needed it in his community.

The issue here is not the choke hold or the process in which the cops took him down. The issue is one of respect and sensitivity that the cops treat the public that they serve.

This man should not have been confronted at all. The cops should have been interviewing witnesses and took the guys info just in case he becomes accused. From what I can see in the video, they had no reason to detain him.

a reply to: mikeone718

I am extremely goal oriented. Having to take time out of a very busy day to deal with nonsense is not only unnerving, it is enraging.

Why should I have to pony up for a lawyer to fend off over reaching cops?

It is still sounding like having to beg for your rights. Except now it sounds like you have to pay for them, too.

originally posted by: mikeone718

originally posted by: CallmeRaskolnikov
i swear to god working in NYC scares the sh!t outta me sometimes.

I work in one of the worst areas of NYC (Harlem) and have yet to be scared or intimidated by the police.

This man's death is unfortunate but at the same time, he was very large, belligerent and uncooperative.

that really doesn't mean much considering the population here in NYC, you're lucky.

unfortunate? you make it sound like the police just spilled this guys coffee when they literally squeezed the life out of him. being large, cursing or being "uncooperative"(because you can't breath or are being wrongfully arrested) doesn't equal justification for any action that would result in death, accidental or not.

there is a line and the police are habitual line crossers without any apparent ramifications.

a reply to: Quauhtli

Man you are a defense attorney's wet dream....you have no idea what led up to this and yet you are assuming he was the salt of the community which he very well could have been...but we don't know anything other than the take down and what the camera man is reporting...and obviously that a man has lost his life...

originally posted by: Quauhtli
I'd bet from the short amount of time watching him in this video that he was a gentle giant. Probably tried to help any and all who needed it in his community.

The issue here is not the choke hold or the process in which the cops took him down. The issue is one of respect and sensitivity that the cops treat the public that they serve.

This man should not have been confronted at all. The cops should have been interviewing witnesses and took the guys info just in case he becomes accused. From what I can see in the video, they had no reason to detain him.

They just saw "Big black guy" and thought he must be trouble, let's take him down.... no thought for the rule of law or respect or tact, just felt like whooping someone.

originally posted by: Quauhtli
The issue here is not the choke hold or the process in which the cops took him down. The issue is one of respect and sensitivity that the cops treat the public that they serve.

This man should not have been confronted at all. The cops should have been interviewing witnesses and took the guys info just in case he becomes accused. From what I can see in the video, they had no reason to detain him.

Exactly! Police are paid to enforce laws where they are being broken. So many cops today act as if it their job to instill a 'healthy' and submissive fear of authority into every civilian they encounter. Reasonable suspicion and probable cause used to be impetus for arrests in the US. Now they simply place a person under false arrest, and when the person doesn't immediately comply and hop in the patrol car they bring out the absurdly unconstitutional (and wholly unnecessary from a legislative view) charge of resisting arrest.

This recent incident restored some of my faith in American police officers. Notice how differently the arriving officer treated the citizens involved. If this had happened in NYC, they would have needed a paddy-wagon and several body-bags:
www.liveleak.com...

What was the probable cause that justified the arrest in the first place?

Anyone?

Ok, so in the past he has been busted selling single cigarettes for 50 cents each. This is illegal and if that is in fact what was going on, then witnessing this transaction would be probable cause. That is not what happened here though.

This man broke up a fight, then when the cops saw the group and Eric Garner in the middle, they ASSUMED he was selling cigarettes. The reality was that he was doing nothing more than breaking up a fight and stopping people from hurting each other.

Are past crimes now considered probable cause? If i got caught shoplifting in my youth, could any cop arrest me at any time on suspicion of shoplifting despite zero evidence to back it up?

There was no probable cause to arrest Eric Garner in the first place. People have the right to defend themselves when getting attacked, and when a cop, or multiple cops, attempt to illegally arrest a person, that is considered an attack and he had every right to try and defend himself.

These cops MURDERED this man, plain and simple. At the very least it was involuntary manslaughter, but judging by the video and the complete lack of any resuscitation attempts after he was unresponsive tells me it was intentional.

I live in Staten Island. Small place, didn't think we'd be on the news. A friend of mine's father personally knew the man. Tragic day, the most that'll happen is they'll lose their jobs. Period. But that isn't the only problem here. Society is comprised of selfish people, teenagers and adults alike, always on the lookout for a fight to pick. People are entertained by other's pain, whether it's physically or emotionally. The kids do drugs every day, and the girls are such sluts. It's disgusting what media has done to this generation, and I have doubts in the next.