The Coming Caliphate who will it Love?

originally posted by: OpinionatedB
a reply to: LightningStrikesHere

Enlighted YOURSELF:

islamic-world.net...

Teachings like this COULD NOT EXIST but for the fact you have NOT 1 hadith in your books which expressly forbide it!

Shia do have many many ahadith which expressly forbid such things... MANY.....

Sunni are left trying to jump hoops with polemics and playing catch-up with the jihadists because your books do not forbid such action as the jihadi's promote.

It's not to put down you or your ahadith either, it was simply my point. Ahadith ties the hands of the shia, while sunni have no such laws tying their hands.

...... I don't know weather to laugh or cry right now....

What hadith's do you take knowledge from?

Bukhri & Muslim ? Are in FACT the most accurate books containing hadith !

If you say anything els then surly we can diagnose your problem ......and I'll better understand your backwards mind on basic Islamic knowledge.

a reply to: dawnstar

I'm going to say something here. But its not America's fight. Yes, win or loose America and western countries have to bear what the end result is..

but this time... it HAS to be the fight of the Muslims... It's not America who should be fighting this.

Caliphate=misunderstood=scares people=why it's even being brought up in the MSM.

Buck buck buck buck bawwwwwk. (chicken noises)...

Religion is one of the most dangerous things on the entire planet and needs to be kept in the realm of personal choice only, and not considered in any decision process which involves any larger number of people.

Religion wouldn't be involved in the "People Management" business if people weren't so completely ignorant, bad enough people don't realize they're being "managed" and think they are free somehow or other.

a reply to: LightningStrikesHere

Maybe you've been too busy studying ISIS to realize the differences in your own religion, between other Muslims.

We have different books of ahadith, Shia do not follow or read or learn from Bukhari and Muslim.

You accuse me of being backwards for condemning those who do nothing against the jihadists, who do take their religion from Bukhari and Muslim just like the jihadists.

When you learn more about the nuances within your own religion, we can talk, about religion and you can disagree that I take my religion solely from Muhammed wa Aale Muhammed (saww) rather than from your Bukhari and Muslim.

Until then, let us stick to talking about something you should concern yourself more with, and that is action in the face of real threats.

a reply to: LightningStrikesHere

You claim to fight jihadists on the internet, and DO NOT KNOW which scholars they listen to and learn from?

Before you call others dumb, you really need to expand upon all this knowledge you say you have.

originally posted by: OpinionatedB
a reply to: dawnstar

I'm going to say something here. But its not America's fight. Yes, win or loose America and western countries have to bear what the end result is..

but this time... it HAS to be the fight of the Muslims... It's not America who should be fighting this.

Right so America just usherd in the ISIS by destabilizing Iraq, and they have to responsibility of fixing it?

You sound like you belong in the Obama administration....

a reply to: LightningStrikesHere

Muslims have the obligation to fight those born of a bastardization of the religion. NOT America... MUSLIMS.

Obama administration? No...

But since its Muslims who are being killed at the current moment, you would think it would be them to take up the axe. Shia are.. even shia children in Iraq are... they are Muslim

and they need help from other Muslims, larger groups, you know... sunnis.

a reply to: OpinionatedB

We have different books of ahadith, Shia do not follow or read or learn from Bukhari and Muslim.

You accuse me of being backwards for condemning those who do nothing against the jihadists, who do take their religion from Bukhari and Muslim just like the jihadists.

Well here's the problem! Forgive me I don't center my studies around shia belief.

But i fully understand why your saying these strange things.


Again i have proved to you that sunnie are fighting the ISIS and you somehow keep denying it? Why?

Yes these "extremist " might read from the same hadith books, but they interpret the meanings and understandings wrongly!

And these Muslims are referd to as the khuaraij

From their essentially political position, the Kharijites developed extreme doctrines that further set them apart from both mainstream Sunni and Shiʿa Muslims. The Kharijites were particularly noted for adopting a radical approach to Takfir, whereby they declared other Muslims to be unbelievers and therefore deemed them worthy of death.

They are a danger to both shia and sunnie savvy?

Is it starting to set in now ?

a reply to: LightningStrikesHere

As the sunnis around the world sit still and let the new caliphate rise to power in the ME, it will be the most damning condemnation of all... because you all sat back and watched it happen.

One little video of those who have spent years now enabling ISIS, supposedly fighting against them, in a country where ISIS is being defeated, does NOT mean that the sunni can sit back and let them take over Iraq so they get enough power to go back to Syria and win.

Your video in no way suddenly absolves sunni of the responsibility to fight them in Iraq, or ANY country where ISIS tries to take hold.

originally posted by: OpinionatedB
a reply to: LightningStrikesHere

Muslims have the obligation to fight those born of a bastardization of the religion. NOT America... MUSLIMS.

Obama administration? No...

But since its Muslims who are being killed at the current moment, you would think it would be them to take up the axe. Shia are.. even shia children in Iraq are... they are Muslim

and they need help from other Muslims, larger groups, you know... sunnis.

OK......OK..... Its obvious your stuck on shia power mode!
I am done debating with you .

Unless you can present FACT ! That sunnies are NOT fighting against the ISIS
Then we are done here.

When ever your ready to acknowledge the FACT I presented ,then we can talk .. And maybe not make it a shia sunnie issue ?

Right.....best of luck

I

a reply to: LightningStrikesHere

Fact? read on the ground accounts of what is right now happening in Iraq!

Your not absolved of the responsibility to actually fight them because you can show one video.

a reply to: LightningStrikesHere

Just an FYI here and I know I'm a bit late to the party...but ISIS isn't a threat to fundamental Sunni. They are executing people by summary field action when people cannot answer the right questions of detailed theology based on Sunni fundamental belief. Answer it wrong? You're dead...and that is what these guys have been video taping and showing the world, from their own efforts.

This has been a Sunni/Shia war beneath everything else, going back long before the United States was even an idea to form a nation with. It's carried to this day...and Shia represent 10-12% of the over 1 billion Muslims world wide.

We've been conditioned, trained and all but told we MUST hate Shia. Iran is evil Assad is evil...oh but the Saudi Royal Family are good good friends we must cherish at all costs. Same with Oman, Qatar and Kuwait. These aren't Shia nations. They are Sunni ones and the only Shia nations left on Earth are Syria and Iran. That likely won't last much longer if the Caliphate forms as they seem to intend here.

The ultimate goal of the fanatic and fundamentalist Sunni is a world without the Shia. ISIS is formed, lead by and operated upon the fundamental principles of Sunni Islam. The most extreme sides of it...and they're murdering anyone who doesn't like it, wholesale.

a reply to: Wrabbit2000

I have to disagree .

The ISIS have executed leaders of the FSA who were "fundamentals".

the ISIS are a threat to both shia and sunni . watch the video I posted.

I haven't ever been "condition or traind " to hate shia ?

This of your opinion.

I don't know anything about them really, and I surely have not heard any of my imams talking bad about them?

a reply to: OpinionatedB

Some cultures are better suited to benevolent dictators. It's folly to have tried to inject our own western sense of government on them, simply to expedite the flow of oil money out of the ME. Whatever bill corporations may have run up, U.S. taxpayers have paid ten fold through endless war.

As for the Caliphate, I don't see how, liberty and western freedoms are like a bell that can't be unrung. Some attempts may rise here and there but they will fail.

In my honest opinion, not to be heartless, the only way to bring about an end to Islamic extremism is to stop all immigration out of those countries. If moderates continually leave for the west, then they cede the country to radicals. They then move west and become inadvertently radicalized simply because their customs and culture are so different, they feel as outsiders and turn to what they know
w or feel accepted in - their religion. Let them stay in their homelands and fight for their principles.

originally posted by: OpinionatedB
a reply to: LightningStrikesHere

Fact? read on the ground accounts of what is right now happening in Iraq!

Your not absolved of the responsibility to actually fight them because you can show one video.

OK for the sake of argument ... Iets go fight them ! You and me !

A sunnie shia partnership! Yeah?

a reply to: LightningStrikesHere

Lightning, I've been conditioned by media, upbringing and societal norms to hate Iran since the Embassy fell in 1979. Of course that's been happening and it was reinforced in countless ways during the endless Iran/Contra hearings. It may not be something as strongly pushed now ..but then I also recall Vice President Cheney's "joke" and parody of a famous song to say "bomb bomb bomb Iran" toward the end of the 2nd term, when asked a question on the matter.

Now, yes, ISIS is a threat to SOME Sunni. In fact, most of them in reality. If you aren't fanatic enough, it doesn't seem to matter to these guys if you are a direct descendant of one of the figures of the Faith itself. You'll get the same bullet as a Shia who answered their questions wrong. The same questioning to an execution we've seen in other places, come to think of it. Shia just means you won't even get "The Questions" if they know it outright. At least this has been their behavior and what they are taping themselves doing for support of those who like this.

BTW... If you want to see a very good example of the United States taking direct sides in the Shia/Sunni war, take a good look at Bahrain and particularly in the 2011 period of time. Those were often U.S. tools being used to suppress the Shia there. It's downright silly when they didn't even take off the Pennsylvania address and company logos from the CS gas canisters and other 'non-lethal' methods used to back the Saudi's and Bahraini Government. (One of ATS's own members was an Visa Student here and returned into that mess in Bahrain. A very nice woman I'd spent hours and hours chatting with on the subject. It IS my opinion..but a well considered one for what that's worth)

We take sides, and we have from the start. We just don't like to admit we take sides because we claim we don't while managing a straight face.

originally posted by: Wrabbit2000
a reply to: LightningStrikesHere

Lightning, I've been conditioned by media, upbringing and societal norms to hate Iran since the Embassy fell in 1979. Of course that's been happening and it was reinforced in countless ways during the endless Iran/Contra hearings. It may not be something as strongly pushed now ..but then I also recall Vice President Cheney's "joke" and parody of a famous song to say "bomb bomb bomb Iran" toward the end of the 2nd term, when asked a question on the matter.

Now, yes, ISIS is a threat to SOME Sunni. In fact, most of them in reality. If you aren't fanatic enough, it doesn't seem to matter to these guys if you are a direct descendant of one of the figures of the Faith itself. You'll get the same bullet as a Shia who answered their questions wrong. The same questioning to an execution we've seen in other places, come to think of it. Shia just means you won't even get "The Questions" if they know it outright. At least this has been their behavior and what they are taping themselves doing for support of those who like this.

BTW... If you want to see a very good example of the United States taking direct sides in the Shia/Sunni war, take a good look at Bahrain and particularly in the 2011 period of time. Those were often U.S. tools being used to suppress the Shia there. It's downright silly when they didn't even take off the Pennsylvania address and company logos from the CS gas canisters and other 'non-lethal' methods used to back the Saudi's and Bahraini Government. (One of ATS's own members was an Visa Student here and returned into that mess in Bahrain. A very nice woman I'd spent hours and hours chatting with on the subject. It IS my opinion..but a well considered one for what that's worth)

We take sides, and we have from the start. We just don't like to admit we take sides because we claim we don't while managing a straight face.

Rabbit I fully believe what your saying and I agree with most of it. I was coming from a religious point of view.
No doubt the US has an agenda for Iran. And I find it awful that sick groups like the ISIS are killing shia and sunnie Muslims.
The current debate on this thread was "weather or not the sunnie are fighting the ISIS"
And the answer is YES they are .. They might not be a huge force but they are fighting I have proved that much at least.
Like I said from a religious point of view I haven't been condition to hate shia or anything like that.
Even though the US takes a position against Iran & shia does not mean the citizens of the US have to.
Likewise with these terrior groups , just because they claim to be sunnie and take up arms against the shia , that does not mean I have to .
Anyway. ..I am so over this thread lol

a reply to: LightningStrikesHere

Okay, to be very strict and narrow to the thread topic then...and with all due respect (as we disagree on this one) what Sunnis are fighting ISIS?

Not which Sunni individuals, as individuals...but what Sunni groups or organizations as a Sunni group are fighting ISIS? The main Government of Iraq has specifically excluded the Sunni from government and military positions of any importance, which is precisely why many of the average Sunni have backed ISIS to various degrees up to this point. In this case, and for them? The devil they know is worse than the devil they don't know that well yet, or so it seems?

I tend to think ISIS represents the worst and most base behavior the world has seen on open display for a good long time. In some ways, going back to the Cambodian "Killing fields" and that effort to "purify" a society for ideology. In this case, it's Theology and they mean it by what I've seen.

There is a book which may help a great deal for understanding the true fanatic side of of the Sunni Faith as it appears in Al Qaeda as well as what that has now evolved into.

Inside the Jihad: My Life with Al Qaeda

That is the book and story of a man who grew up in the fanatic environment of the war against France during the 90's for one of their last African colonial concerns. The author was part of a cell in Europe, not Algeria. The DGSE got their butts kicked, but that's secondary to the story.

The guy was spooked and cornered to flip sides and help the French, then later the German intelligence services with a very unique inside look at the most extreme of the time ..and ISIS is worse. What the guy did tho was thumb his way into Pakistan and manage his way into the training pipeline that was based in Afghanistan before the U.S. war with them began. It's not overly dramatic as much as a day to day account of life in the camps, training and MOST important, the inner mindset and private behaviors of the true fanatics. They are even identifiable in public, if you know what you're seeing, as their service to Allah demands some things in a non-negotiable way, in their mind. Some of it is literally visible from a distance.

I think you'd find that very interesting as a primer to understand the inner working of what immediately preceded and spawned the evolution we see in Iraq and Syria now, building their Caliphate. Like demented Sea Bees.

a reply to: Wrabbit2000



Opponents
Syrian Armed Forces
Syrian Opposition[19][20][21]
Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps[22]
Iraqi Armed Forces
Multi-National Force (2004–2009)
US Forces – Iraq (2010–2011)
Awakening Councils
Turkish Armed Forces (border clashes)[23][24][25][26]
Hezbollah[27]
Iraqi Shia militias
Al-Nusra Front [28]
Ansar al-Islam[29]
Peshmerga
Iraqi Turkmen Front[30]

People's Protection Units



en.m.wikipedia.org...

They may be small in number but their are still sunnies fighting the ISIS.
www.abovetopsecret.com...