The Coming Caliphate who will it Love?

originally posted by: OpinionatedB
a reply to: maes2

We need to stand for what is right, I mean really right. God's kind of right - not our own.

There are some who are God's in every group of us, even wahabbis who are God's in heart and spirit, which is why we cannot judge all as a group, but rather only the individual based on action.

To clarify, I believe what you are saying is that there are those who are God's people in every group, and not that they are actual deities. I think the way it was written could be misconstrued.

When we eradicate the group as a whole, we also run the risk of eradicating those within it who actually DO belong to God, and who have themselves done us no personal harm on that account, as individuals.

a reply to: nenothtu

Thank you and yes that was my meaning. Sorry. I edited it now to reflect the clarification better.

originally posted by: nenothtu

originally posted by: deadeyedick

a reply to: nenothtu You claim you have no right to say what path someone should take but i say you are getting sort. ILet's just say that the path one could take requires the blood of you and everyone you love before they complete their requirments. That would be a path that involves you and you should be concerned at that point with what your neighbor is up to. Basically the path that you want people to have the freedom and choice to be on should not exist at the expense of the saftey of the world? If someone started worshipping gun powder as their god then people should worry. if that god then ask for blood of the infedals then we should get involved. One should always be careful when trying to understanding a religion that is being used to outright kill folks. They can take a soft heart and turn it hard as death.

I stand by what I said.



Their path means nothing to me, and is none of my business, until it crosses mine and endangers me or my own. At that point, their rights cease to exist where mine begin, and a good time will not be had by all.



UP TO that point, their business is none of mine. I have no more right to infringe on their free choice than they have to infringe on mine.



Nor can one take an entire religion and slander it because of a minority of miscreants that are present in it. Christians say to "hate the sin but love the sinner". I can condemn the radical's ideology, but until a radical raises his sword to ME, I cannot condemn that radical, for there are good people found in all groups, and one eliminates them as well when one eliminates parent group wholesale.



One cannot prosecute a war of self-defense before there is anything to defend from. In doing so, he runs the risk of throwing the baby out with the bath water, and on the last day will have to answer for that to God.

I can respect that view. I have to ask though what is mighter the sword or the pen? You can see the sword coming but the pen chips away at the edges in an effort to get those to raise swords that never would have had a sword. When those select few as you all put it plan and declare death to america so much that the threat is ignored then you may be asleep when the sword comes. Until the voice of the majority speaks up louder than the terrorist then all the group will be viewed as terrorist by way of ignorrance. I am certain that everyone on this thread has been threatened by those so called violent few and until the peaceful ones speak out loudly about the violence and wrong doing to others then they are continuing to contribute to the power of those few.

a reply to: deadeyedick

a reply to: Seede You claim they would have to have world domination but i heard that it would take 51% to complete their goal and i do wonder how you can be so sure that the u.s. is not under their control already.

No, it is they who claim that they will have world domination and the 51% thing is off mark. The Muslim goal is that they must have the entire world converted to their Allah. There is no acceptable percentage except 100 %. The infidels must be slaughtered and their Muslim Allah must rule in their likeness. That is the Muslim way. The Christian way is just as radical except that the Christians believe that they will all inherit the celestial kingdom and this world will be destroyed. The Jews are also just as radical. They will tolerate the gentile but the world will be governed from Jerusalem by the Jews. Everybo0dy believes that their little corner of the world is the way to go.

How do I know the U.S. is not under their control already? I don't really know for a fact even though we do have a Muslim president who controls the U.S. without authority. My belief is that within two years we will know whether they have succeeded or have not succeeded. There may be a blood bath that will surpass all history before this is settled. In fact I don't believe it will ever be settled without wholesale murder or a natural catastrophic event. In either case world domination by any one group of people is not possible in my estimation. According to history this has been tried many times and will be tried many more times.

"world domination by any one group of people is not possible"

"that at the name of Jesus ,
every knee should bow,
of things in heaven,
and things in earth,
and things under the earth;"

for and by one name,
and one name alone,,
may mankind be saved.

originally posted by: deadeyedick
I can respect that view. I have to ask though what is mighter the sword or the pen? You can see the sword coming but the pen chips away at the edges in an effort to get those to raise swords that never would have had a sword. When those select few as you all put it plan and declare death to america so much that the threat is ignored then you may be asleep when the sword comes. Until the voice of the majority speaks up louder than the terrorist then all the group will be viewed as terrorist by way of ignorrance. I am certain that everyone on this thread has been threatened by those so called violent few and until the peaceful ones speak out loudly about the violence and wrong doing to others then they are continuing to contribute to the power of those few.

I can say that I've not been asleep when the sword came so far, but there's a first time for everything, and one day my number will be up, same as everyone else. I cannot live my life in abject terror of a maybe. All I can do is remain watchful, and keep on living life as it comes. With any luck, old age will kill me before the sword does, but if it gos the other way, then so be it. I will have lived my life as me when the end comes, and not be cowering in a corner when it finds me.

"The voice of the majority" is a funny thing. if a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound? Likewise, just because you don't hear of a thing, does that mean it never happened?

I know a Muslim that ran a website for a few years combating the radicals. They actually ran into some success at getting radical websites shut down, but amazingly three letter agencies entered the fray and REOPENED them, with the excuse that they could "watch the radicals" via those websites.

There is a big difference in my mind between facilitating a thing and merely watching it, but I digress.

The upshot is that I am willing to bet that you have never heard of that occurrence other than from me. No media attention. The only way I know it is personal acquaintance. It didn't make the news, either mainstream or alternative, so I am sure you never heard about it until now. If you've not heard of that, how many OTHER voices raised have you not heard about?

Just because you don't hear it where you sit doesn't mean that voices aren't being raised in a scream.

Just because you don't hear the tree fall doesn't mean it didn't.

Some of us in this thread have been threatened by those violent few much more personally than a mere "newscaster" telling us that there is a nebulous boogey man out there threatening us, and we need to be scared of it and everything that they can manage to associate with it. And still, we don't hide from it in the closet... you DO know that "the monster" lives in the closet, don't you? Hiding and being continually scared is not always the best option.

Sometimes, that will run you right into the monster's claws.

originally posted by: BobAthome
"world domination by any one group of people is not possible"

"that at the name of Jesus ,
every knee should bow,
of things in heaven,
and things in earth,
and things under the earth;"

for and by one name,
and one name alone,,
may mankind be saved.

Your talking about god ..... And so are we

a reply to: Seede You said the chriastian way is just as radical as themuslims and that is bs. I have never in my days seen someone be forced into the church by threat of death but perhaps yo ment radical in the sense that an evil group would kill all christians in the end. Sounds like the same story being told from two different sides.

a reply to: nenothtu Wow you turned my post into me being scared and hiding in the closet because i was not in the part of the forest the trees were falling. What i was trying to convey is that the radicals are being heard above any voice of the peaceful ones. I never once stated that the peaceful ones did not have a voice. Perhaps they need to combat their own religion more loudly. I'm not saying it will be easy but you know what i hear those peaceful voices very much saying muslims are not violent and at the same time we have terroist attacks happening all around the world and right here in the u.s. in the mane of the muslim god. I have no doubt that letter agencies have been covering things up from time to time because of all those peaceful muslims may get their feelings hurt or possibly we may have some high up that see things simular to some posters in this thread with a bit of power.

originally posted by: deadeyedick
a reply to: nenothtu Wow you turned my post into me being scared and hiding in the closet because i was not in the part of the forest the trees were falling. What i was trying to convey is that the radicals are being heard above any voice of the peaceful ones. I never once stated that the peaceful ones did not have a voice. Perhaps they need to combat their own religion more loudly.

How loudly will they have to shout before you can hear them without MSM amplification?

LightningStrikesHere has flat out told us that he is against them, and he is Muslim - not just ANY Muslim, but specifically a Salafist... and HE is against them, and has explicitly stated so. OpinionatedB is a Muslim, and she is against them, too, and has stated so right here, rather loudly and forcefully. I believe maes2 is against them as well, although he is more soft spoken, a man of peace. I believe if you ask him flat out, he will tell you that he is against the extremists as well. That's THREE Muslims, right here in this thread, the totality of the Muslims in this thread, that are against the extremists. Possibly four, depending on how liberally one defines "Muslim", and ALL are against them. They have said so, right here, unanimously.

It's my understanding that Ayatollah Sistani, a very influential Muslim among Shi'ites, has issued a call to arms against them, the first call to arms in his life.

SO - I ask you again - how loudly will they have to shout before you can hear them?

Of course the radicals are heard loudly - "if it bleeds, it leads". Their voice and acts of violence are heard more loudly because they are amplified by a bloodthirsty press, and a few other choice characters with a vested interest in demonization.

I didn't turn your post into anything. The fear shows through, mostly as a fear of the unknown. How many Muslims do you know personally? How many do you eat with daily? From your post, it appears that you get everything you know about Islam from the MSM and/or various anti-Islamic websites with a vested agenda, and believe what you are told to believe by them. That works out as a fear of the unknown, believing that you "know" the unknown because of what you have been told, but in reality not knowing - just believing.

I'm not saying it will be easy but you know what i hear those peaceful voices very much saying muslims are not violent and at the same time we have terroist attacks happening all around the world and right here in the u.s. in the mane of the muslim god. I have no doubt that letter agencies have been covering things up from time to time because of all those peaceful muslims may get their feelings hurt or possibly we may have some high up that see things simular to some posters in this thread with a bit of power.

Don't assume an attack alleged to be "in the name" of a God to be supported by the people who claim that God. I presume you are a Christian - do the assaults by Westboro Baptist Church "in the name of God" meet with your approval? Just because some jackass does what HE wants to do and blames it on a god doesn't mean that the god, or the religion, has anything to do with it in reality, or that either of the latter approve of the actions.

Muslims are, as a rule, no more nor no less violent than any other group. They are just people, subject to all of the infirmities attendant upon the human condition, same as you or I. I've been angry. I've been violent. I have also been peaceful, and I have been content. I am human, same as you are, and so are Muslims.

Arabs, as a rule, are a bit more intense than Europeans or Americans, but that intensity doesn't equate to violence, it's just intensity. Note that I said ARABS, not "Muslims", because not all Arabs are Muslim, nor are all Muslims Arab. Their intensity is just a cultural difference. I know some Arab Christians as well, and they are just as intense.

When you shuck off the fear that has been foisted upon you, and allow the scales to slide from your eyes... when you do that, and get out among the Other, you will often find that they are not as evil as you have been led to believe, and that the fear was baseless.

Are there violent Muslims? You betcha there are, just as there are some violent caucasians, some violent blacks, some violent orientals, some violent Jews, some violent Christians. Believe it or not, one of the most violent people I have ever known was a Buddhist. He was a little bitty Thai guy who would rock your world when it hit the fan, but he was also a Buddhist, one of the most peaceful groups on the planet. Everyone has their limit, and some have a lower threshold than others - but that's not dependent upon religion. It's dependent on an individual's makeup. It's to be found in any gathering of people. You have to watch for them, of course, but you can't just automatically assume that violence will ensue.

That would be living in fear.

You're right, though. Some of the Alphabet Agencies and some other nebulous shadowy figures are orchestrating this dance in part. I believe there may be a thread in the works touching upon that very subject. The flow of "information" is under control, but it's not my control or yours. Luckily, there is a cure for that in this day and age, but it sometimes involves a bit of legwork.

It's reasonably human to fear the unknown, but the cure for that is to get to know it, not to believe whatever you're told with no experience of your own of the situation.

Get out and meet them. Do it boldly, without any fear. You may be surprised. You don't have to share a meal of goat with an Afghan as I have, but it's possible that you COULD help him build a bridge... or mend your fences.

I don't dislike you, Deadeye, nor am I "taking you to task", so please don't view this as an attack - I'm just trying to give you a different way to think, another avenue of approach to explore for yourself.

a reply to: nenothtu I really have give credit to the first paragraph of your post and those posters. However it seems strange that you keep wanting to make this about me and my fear. Everything i'm posting is typical view from a people that have had to deal with people that yell allah akbar and then shoot up the place. It is not fear it is just common sense when you have most of the people in the world that want to kill americans reading from the same book.

It's is kinda like the gm recalls going on right now and how the cars shutting off while driving. How many people are gonna question the whole lot of gm now that a very minor few cars are doing that. This is information most people would take into account if selecting a model to buy for their child. Look at criminals that have done violence against someone unjustified would it be fear or common sense to be around someone like that? For the most part they lived everyday of their lives peacefully but that small percentage they did not. It is not fear but common sense to stay away from the path they took.

I am just glad that we all have a place to talk about all this and glad i was able to entice you all here to debate. I come here to get the other sides and do not ignore wisdom.

originally posted by: deadeyedick
a reply to: nenothtu I really have give credit to the first paragraph of your post and those posters. However it seems strange that you keep wanting to make this about me and my fear. Everything i'm posting is typical view from a people that have had to deal with people that yell allah akbar and then shoot up the place. It is not fear it is just common sense when you have most of the people in the world that want to kill americans reading from the same book.

It's not specifically about you and your fear, it's about the fear in general fostered by news agencies and some others. It does show in your posts, but you are by no means alone in it. You're correct that everything you type is the typical view of many, perhaps most, non-Muslims, but being "typical" does not mean it is correct, it just means the propaganda juju is working to formulate opinion, and keep the fear pumped up. I do address you in these responses, since I am responding to your posts, but the intended audience is much wider than just yourself. Lurkers abound at ATS, they read to find knowledge and stimulate thought, and usually do not respond - they just read, and ponder. It's also for them.

I have had to deal with "people who yell allahu akbar!" and shoot up the place personally. I have also had to deal with Muslims. I find in those dealings that the two are not necessarily the same, despite the lip service to their God paid by the radicals. You see, actually dealing with them, both types, will educate one on the difference. I don't advocate for the casual Joe to deal with the radicals - I advocate the average Joe RUNNING away from them just as fast as his legs will carry him. They're not nice people. However, the propaganda postulates that ALL Muslims are radicals, and they are not. One must identify a Muslim as a radical before running away, but most don't bother to make that identification. They just use a twisted sort of "logic" to identify all as the same.

Islam is more than just a religion, it's an entire way of life comprising religious, political, and cultural parameters. The radicals stress the political, and twist up the religious to suit their world view. In other words, they use a religion to further their political goals, make new religious tenets to support those goals, and ignore the religious tenets that subvert their own goals. They use God to get their way. One day perhaps, what Muslims call "The Last Day" and what Christians call "Judgment Day", they are going to have to answer to God for their abuse of him. There are Christians around who do the same, use God as a crutch to further their own goals. They're gonna have to answer to God for that, too.

The cultural component differs from place to place, from Muslim to Muslim, because Islam is present in a variety of different cultures, where it has been adopted and adapted to suit the culture. An example is stoning for adultery. That is a cultural thing, not an Islamic one. some Muslims in the stoning cultures have wrapped their cultural trait of stoning into Islam to justify it, but from the beginning it was not so, nor is it so in all Islamic cultures.

The religious component is the core of Islam. It does not depend on the other two components, and at times is decidedly at odds with them, Muslim A, who stresses the religious and reworks the other two to fit it cannot be blamed for the actions of Muslim B, who stresses the political, and reworks the other two to conform to his own political desires. They are entirely different kinds of "Muslim", and I personally don't even consider the politically oriented Muslims to even BE Muslims - they ignore God in order to pursue their own desires, and simply pay lip service in order to justify their atrocities.

There are Christians and Jews who do the same thing, and who will pay the same price in the end. God is not there to be used by Man for politics. He's not a tool for personal political gain.

The political Islamists ( I hesitate to call them Muslims, but "Islamists" seems to fit given their abuse of the religion) are, in fact, the very subject of this thread. What IS a "Caliphate" if not a political organization? It's an empire, disguised as a religion, and God knows.

It's is kinda like the gm recalls going on right now and how the cars shutting off while driving. How many people are gonna question the whole lot of gm now that a very minor few cars are doing that. This is information most people would take into account if selecting a model to buy for their child. Look at criminals that have done violence against someone unjustified would it be fear or common sense to be around someone like that? For the most part they lived everyday of their lives peacefully but that small percentage they did not. It is not fear but common sense to stay away from the path they took.

Well, I guess it can be said fairly that I've not much common sense, because I live in the midst of criminals who have done unjustified violence. I live in a "ghetto", and thrive here, despite the criminals present... and they ARE here, amongst the rest of us. Just yesterday evening, a little Mexican guy came into the store I work at and for no apparent reason went off on a rant against "those 'n-word's". He lifted his shirt and displayed a healing, quarter-sized hole in his abdomen where he'd been stabbed a couple of weeks ago to justify his rant. It was a black woman who works with me who was the most appalled - not because of his language or his ire, but because of the unjustified violence done to him during a robbery. She could understand his ire, but not the stabbing. I would not lock her up with the miscreants, who are, after all in the minority even here, but many would, just because she shares the same race, even though she has entirely different values.

"Staying away from the path they took" involves identifying and separating that path out, and placing up road signs to warn others. It does NOT involve misidentifying all paths going in any general direction as "bad" because you don't know which one really IS. I can't help it if many people are too lazy to separate for themselves or read the signs from others who have done the separation for them. I can't help it of people decide to follow the herd and let someone else do their thinking for them.

All I can do is stake my own road signs out, and let the herd follow whichever lead bull they follow. Perhaps MY voice isn't loud enough, either. Maybe I need an amplifier.

I am just glad that we all have a place to talk about all this and glad i was able to entice you all here to debate. I come here to get the other sides and do not ignore wisdom.

And that, sir, is really what it's all about, isn't it? There is no growth, no progress, no education or wisdom, without the free exchange of ideas.



To answer your initial question of "The coming Caliphate: who will it love?" however, I say that it will love it's own, and no one else, same as any other political or cultural entity. We will know whom "it's own" are when it is established, and we see whom it loves and whom it hates. I reckon that's one way to separate the sheep from the goats, but it will have a high price in human terms, in blood and tears.

originally posted by: deadeyedick
Do you think you will be loved by the rising of the last caliphate? Where ever you are do you feel that the danger of violence will rise in your area? Do you feel that after estiblished they will find peace?

A further response, harking back to the OP, to answer each question it raises in turn:

I will not be loved by the new caliphate. I won't even be liked, nor tolerated by it. That makes no difference to me - there are just some folks in this world I don't want to be loved by, and I never intended to live on this rock ball forever, anyhow. We all die. It's how we had lived that is the important thing in the end.

I don't see how the danger of violence COULD rise in my area, but if it's possible, then a new caliphate will make it so. I have long shouted that the ultimate goal of the Islamists is a caliphate stretching from al-Andalus to Indonesia, but in reality they don't intend to stop there - their goal is WORLD domination, to have a world entirely under their thumbs, and nothing to do with a world for their God - they want a world for THEM. Here is a t-shirt being sold from Indonesia right now, which illustrates this ultimate goal -



note the world map centered in the shirt. That's not there just to take up space. Note the AKs - God has no need of rifles.

If they reach that goal, or even think they have a shot at reaching that goal, then danger of violence will rise EVERYWHERE on that map. It has nothing to do with having a "world for Allah". God is apolitical, and logic dictates that everything he created and has not given away is already his. Instead, it's all about having a world under the thumbs of the radicals, under THEIR control rather than God's.

They will be violent wherever they need to be to reach that goal, and they will continue to blame it on Allah, trying to keep their own bloody hands clean in their quest for their own political gain.

Will they find peace? That depends on how you view "peace", I suppose. Many, or perhaps most, would have "the peace of the dead", but the radicals themselves will NEVER have peace. They are of the sort who cannot find peace. There will always be something else for them to kill and conquer, and in that there is no peace to be had. If nothing else, they will turn on each other and kill each other off in the infighting, if there are no external targets to be had.

The only peace to be had is on the road less traveled, the road one takes without fear.



That's my son and his wife. the world I want is for them, and my granddaughter. THEY are the reason I still fight on, knowing that I won't live to see it... but the future generations will. It's to them that the world belongs, not to me, not to ISIS, not to a caliphate. It's for them that I do what I can to shape it into something worth having.