Ground Zero Cross: Court presses atheist group to explain why artifact is 'offensive'

I have seen many people post that "other religions should be represented as well". What a concept. The problem here is that Christians are doing what they want to do and I don't really see why I, as a Christian, should have to work to find a symbol for your religion as well. If you people want a symbol to represent you than do something about it. In other words, just because you are too lazy or not faithful enough to get off your butt to have your faith represented doesn't mean you get to stop others from representing theirs.

Interestingly, the only laws that these types of idiots get passed directly contradict the first amendment. A cross on some land is no law respecting or establishing a religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, but a law requiring the removal of said cross is exactly the definition of "prohibiting the free exercise thereof".

originally posted by: SaturnFX

But the cross is a Christian symbol, and the attack was by religious fanatics...If religion didn't exist (say it went out of fashion in 2000 globally and everyone just decided to be decent people and humanitarians), we would still have the towers...end of the day, no suicide flyers = no terrorist attacks.

Errr, no. The attacks were not by a group of religious fanatics, they were a false flag that had nothing to do with religion, although that always makes a great excuse.

Please do more research about the massive anomalies associated with the official story of that day. Just because the govt says it happened a certain way, doesn't make it so. For instance, the only evidence we have of 'boxcutters' is the supposed phone call, later denied ever happening by the FBI, to the guy who was the lawyer in charge of getting George Bush installed as president by way of co-opting the Florida vote. What are the odds, hmmm?

And more on topic, the entire building was a mass of crossed beams. The 'cross' in the rubble means nothing except to those who choose to see it as such. Seems like the christian god took a day off that day and allah won that round, or is that disrespectful to point out?

originally posted by: SaturnFX
I think a religious symbol at the site of a religious atrocity is a bit over the top...I would be for a sort of coexist type plaque with all the religious symbols (and the atom for atheists) though...
But the cross is a Christian symbol, and the attack was by religious fanatics...If religion didn't exist (say it went out of fashion in 2000 globally and everyone just decided to be decent people and humanitarians), we would still have the towers...end of the day, no suicide flyers = no terrorist attacks.

There have been plenty of politically motivated terrorists.

originally posted by: buster2010

originally posted by: Lostinthedarkness
a reply to: SaturnFX

The cross was wreckage created sticking up from the tangled mess . It is a relic of the disaster .

Any I beam could have been used for this. They chose this to try to give people the we are a Christian nation impression.

No. The beam's cultural and historical relevance is the solace and comfort the first responders took from it and "not any beam would do" and cutting it up would be a stupid and asinine way of appeasing the perpetual butt hurt. It became a shrine on day one and thus it has relevance as is.

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: buster2010

originally posted by: Lostinthedarkness
a reply to: SaturnFX

The cross was wreckage created sticking up from the tangled mess . It is a relic of the disaster .

Any I beam could have been used for this. They chose this to try to give people the we are a Christian nation impression.

No. The beam's cultural and historical relevance is the solace and comfort the first responders took from it and "not any beam would do" and cutting it up would be a stupid and asinine way of appeasing the perpetual butt hurt. It became a shrine on day one and thus it has relevance as is.

That's exactly right, and what seems to be missing from this whole conversation - everyone wants to inject their own beliefs or lack thereof into this - when in fact, it's not about "you" or "me" - it's about the first responders working on the site in the midst of the horror that surrounded them. *They* took comfort in the cross, they "consecrated" it, and they infused it with meaning.

I remember poking around the site months after, and tucked away in a corner was a wooden fence, where first responders and others had left messages, prayers, "Missing" posters, and a variety of objects were affixed to it as well - that little piece of fencing was as "holy" an object as any I saw there, bearing witness to that time and place and to the people that were there. It held great meaning for me, infused as it was with the thoughts of those who worked the site, and if someone came along and suggested that it be replaced or augmented by a piece of dry wall or brick or chain link, to represent the different types of fences in the world, they'd completely miss the point.

I don't care if it were a cross, a pentagram, or a stuffed animal - the workers on that site, who were in effect working in a huge outdoor tomb, in physically and emotionally hellish conditions, found comfort in that cross, and *that's* what makes it special, and *that's* what gives it meaning.

Bringing in some sterile symbol of some other religion or "not-religion" that wasn't there is devoid of meaning, and is an insult.

""The Third World War must be fomented by taking advantage of the differences caused by the "agentur" of the "Illuminati" between the political Zionists and the leaders of Islamic World. The war must be conducted in such a way that Islam (the Moslem Arabic World) and political Zionism (the State of Israel) mutually destroy each other. Meanwhile the other nations, once more divided on this issue will be constrained to fight to the point of complete physical, moral, spiritual and economical exhaustion…We shall unleash the Nihilists and the atheists, and we shall provoke a formidable social cataclysm which in all its horror will show clearly to the nations the effect of absolute atheism, origin of savagery and of the most bloody turmoil. Then everywhere, the citizens, obliged to defend themselves against the world minority of revolutionaries, will exterminate those destroyers of civilization, and the multitude, disillusioned with Christianity, whose deistic spirits will from that moment be without compass or direction, anxious for an ideal, but without knowing where to render its adoration, will receive the true light through the universal manifestation of the pure doctrine of Lucifer, brought finally out in the public view. This manifestation will result from the general reactionary movement which will follow the destruction of Christianity and atheism, both conquered and exterminated at the same time."

-Albert Pike

Don't worry atheists, your time is coming too.

a reply to: Revelations29

Who the heck is Albert Pike, and why should I give a rat's a$$ what he said?

Don't worry atheists, your time is coming too.

Our time is now.

a reply to: windword

You need Jesus, and the Bible friend.

You know it's funny. Many atheists always slander Christianity when of course Christianity is completely full of #. This is obvious.

All that matters is Bible, and the hidden meanings within.

See, if I was an Atheist, I would read the bible, so I can familiarize my self with my enemy. But, like all atheists, they are all mostly edgy ignorant teenagers that haven't read a single page of it. Because they think its completely wrong and laughable. (because of Christianity)

See I used to be just like you. An edgy angsty teenager athiest who thought Christianity is a personal thread against him.

Then I realized that the Bible contains a prophecy which is being fulfilled as we speak.

a reply to: Revelations29

You need Muhammad, and the Quran friend.

You know it's funny. Many christians always slander Muslims when of course Islam is completely full of #. This is obvious.

All that matters is Quran, and the hidden meanings within.

See, if I was a christian, I would read the Quran, so I can familiarize my self with my enemy. But, like all christians, they are all mostly edgy ignorant teenagers that haven't read a single page of it. Because they think its completely wrong and laughable. (because of Islam)

See I used to be just like you. An edgy angsty teenager christian who thought Islam is a personal threat against him.

Then I realized that the Quran contains a prophecy which is being fulfilled as we speak.

a reply to: xDeadcowx

Funny, but the Quran didn't predict the future. The Bible did. Which is the only reason why I think it has any legitimacy in the first place.

a reply to: Revelations29

That still doesn't answer my question about Albert Pike.

Besides, I'm no teenager, I"m probably old enough to be your grandparent. I"m very familiar with Christianity, as I grew up in a "Holy Roller" Pentecostal home last century, while "Father Knows Best" and "My three Sons" was Prime Time TV fodder.

I'm one of those people who has escaped the insanity of religion. If you need help breaking from the mind control and brainwashing, let me know. I"m here to help.

Why is the world filled with superstitious children who KNOW that there's the guy the sky that just wants/loves them?

What's next, there is a Santa Claus? Tooth Fairy?

Our first amendment is about freedom FROM religion (no state religion) so anything that can be construed as an endorsement of a religion by the state flies in the face of what/how/why the USA was established.

Derek

a reply to: Revelations29

You can believe whatever you want. You say the bible predicted the future, I say its a bunch of very vague passages that when interpreted in a certain way, kinda-sorta predict vague events in the future.

I could list books all day long that some will say predicted the future, like 1984 for example, but I don't go around telling people they need Orwell.

originally posted by: squittles

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: buster2010

originally posted by: Lostinthedarkness
a reply to: SaturnFX

The cross was wreckage created sticking up from the tangled mess . It is a relic of the disaster .

Any I beam could have been used for this. They chose this to try to give people the we are a Christian nation impression.

No. The beam's cultural and historical relevance is the solace and comfort the first responders took from it and "not any beam would do" and cutting it up would be a stupid and asinine way of appeasing the perpetual butt hurt. It became a shrine on day one and thus it has relevance as is.

That's exactly right, and what seems to be missing from this whole conversation - everyone wants to inject their own beliefs or lack thereof into this - when in fact, it's not about "you" or "me" - it's about the first responders working on the site in the midst of the horror that surrounded them. *They* took comfort in the cross, they "consecrated" it, and they infused it with meaning.

I remember poking around the site months after, and tucked away in a corner was a wooden fence, where first responders and others had left messages, prayers, "Missing" posters, and a variety of objects were affixed to it as well - that little piece of fencing was as "holy" an object as any I saw there, bearing witness to that time and place and to the people that were there. It held great meaning for me, infused as it was with the thoughts of those who worked the site, and if someone came along and suggested that it be replaced or augmented by a piece of dry wall or brick or chain link, to represent the different types of fences in the world, they'd completely miss the point.

I don't care if it were a cross, a pentagram, or a stuffed animal - the workers on that site, who were in effect working in a huge outdoor tomb, in physically and emotionally hellish conditions, found comfort in that cross, and *that's* what makes it special, and *that's* what gives it meaning.

Bringing in some sterile symbol of some other religion or "not-religion" that wasn't there is devoid of meaning, and is an insult.

Exactly. Those who bring in religion vs no religion vs "separation of church and state" miss the whole god-damned point in the first place. The beam must remain in the museum, regardless if it is a cross or not, not because it is a Christian symbol, but because of what it was during the response and what it was to the first responders. Even an atheist like me (but then again, I am not an anti-theist either, I just don't believe) can see the historical significance of such an artifact and why it should be included in the museum. It is not there to promote a certain religion--and those who say so are being a bit idiotic--it is there because of the role it played in that historical event. As you said, it could have been some other object that inspired the first responders.

a reply to: Revelations29

i have a theory about that. (i have lots of theories lol mostly hypotheses)

the vatican is using biblical prophecy as a playbook for bringing about the massacre of the people of the fish (end of the age of pisces) and forcing the rest of the political leaders to do so as well, some of them unaware they are being manipulated by the vatican, some of them completely aware and willing.

this theory shares parallel space with the theory that this exact same thing happens at the end of every precessional age, so before us were various other groups who's sole purpose was to be moral and obedient to a ruling elite of completely corrupted individuals, who have played out this role in their elite ruling family lines for thousands and thousands of years.

in other words, pike probably knew about this and was just regurgitating the data, with the previous ages sacrifices replaced by christians. for example, at the end of the age of taurus, all the bull worshippers were slaughtered. rinse, wash, repeate.

originally posted by: Viesczy
Why is the world filled with superstitious children who KNOW that there's the guy the sky that just wants/loves them?

What's next, there is a Santa Claus? Tooth Fairy?

Our first amendment is about freedom FROM religion (no state religion) so anything that can be construed as an endorsement of a religion by the state flies in the face of what/how/why the USA was established.

Derek

Not quite. It was freedom of religion and no state religion. Nothing in the first Amendment implies or even suggests that there is a constitutional right not to see a religious icon ever.

A fundamental problem is that a bunch of foolish people think anything and everything is an "endorsement" of religion when logically there are many things that are not--take the crosses and other religious symbols in Arlington Cemetery for example.

Recognizing the faith or holidays of citizens or the historical and cultural roles religion has played in our country's history and development is not "endorsement" of religion no matter how much the perpetually offended class thinks it is.

a reply to: NavyDoc

"The Beam" is NOT in the museum. It has been made into religious shrine outside of the museum, but within the 911 Memorial Park.



Does that look like a museum exhibit to you?

ETA: Why are people praying to a piece of a building?

a reply to: windword

Reading comprehension isn't your strong suite it seems. Please, if I am mistaken, try proving it to me by actually reading this post.

Like I said before. There is a fine line between the teachings of Jesus Christ, the prophecies of the bible and religion.

I think if Jesus was here today he would tear down every church built. Christians now a days are nothing but a laughing stock of hypocrisy where every Sunday they get to compare each others clothing. (Thanks Carlin)

It seems you never understood the Bible in the first place.

Again, like I said before. I'm not a Christian. I do not suffer from apparent mind control and brainwashing from religion, because I am not religious. The only reason I value the Bible is because of the hidden meanings (and not so hidden), and prophecies.

You don't have to be a Christian to understand and value what the bible is trying to say, nor do you have to be part of any religion to value teachings from the Quran for example.

I really hope you're not as old as you say you are, because you sound like someone who was completely demoralized then thought he "awakened" later on only to be completely deceived.

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: NavyDoc

"The Beam" is NOT in the museum. It has been made into religious shrine outside of the museum, but at the 911 Memorial Park.

Does that look like a museum exhibit to you?

In or out, it doesn't make a difference.

It was a piece of that history and it was put in that park because of that history and what it meant to the first responders. Being there is not an endorsement of religion, even if some citizens treat it like a shrine, it was placed there because of the meaning it had to the first responders--you know, those people who actually were trying to help their fellow man rather than sit back on their hind end and complain about symbols.

It's laughable to call it being where it is, under the context of why it is there, an "endorsement" of religion.

a reply to: undo

It's a good thing you brought up the Vatican. Because everything I'm saying is probably/could be wrong. I've always thought that the bible might have been created as a sort of disinfo tool. At the same time the Bible is linking pieces of evidence that I thought would never share a connection.

For example the Edomites and Esau war against humanity.

I haven't read much about the Vatican at all, and I need to.

For one thing, the Vatican may be in complete control. They might be using the Zionist Ashkenazi Jews as a fall man.

I've always thought that the Zionist plan for world domination was always too obvious, it's too easy to see the Zionist power structure.

What's your thoughts on the Vatican using Zionists as the fall guy? Does it have any truth to it you think?