Ground Zero Cross: Court presses atheist group to explain why artifact is 'offensive'

a reply to: Revelations29

You still haven't answered my question about Albert Pike. Also, I don't see how the Bible and it's teachings have anything to do with a piece of re-bar being exhibited at the 911 Memorial as a religious shrine.

You can proselytize elsewhere.

a reply to: windword

My post was off topic so I have no idea why it even passed the mods.

To answer your question, I guess the only real bull# answer I can come up with is that no matter if your a Christian or an Atheist, were all in the same boat. According to Albert Pike.

But I like were this new thread direction is going. Who honestly cares about some religious shrine on 9/11? so atheists can circle jerk each and say how offensive it is. Yay.

Might as well delete all my posts, because none of them pertain to this subject matter.

a reply to: NavyDoc

St. Peter’s helped in the World Trade Center attack. So close to Ground Zero, the church sustained very little damage. Quickly on that fateful day, and the days that followed, St. Peter’s became the place workers brought emergency equipment, according to Father Kevin Madigan, the pastor. Medical supplies and food piled into the church too, and exhausted workers rested there. It was here that firefighters placed the body of their New York City Fire Department chaplain, Franciscan Father Mychal Judge, “Victim 0001” killed in the attack, before the altar.

Half a mile away, the parish’s mission of St. Joseph Chapel was stripped of pews and became the command center for police, firefighters and construction workers. Priests celebrated Mass in a tent. Now completely rebuilt, the chapel has a Catholic memorial at Ground Zero.


Read more: www.ncregister.com...

The image of the "cross" may have provided some solace to some people. but the shrine wasn't in the ruins where the beam was found lying, it was at the church, which IS memorialized at the 911 Memorial. I think the "cross" should be there, in or outside the church, where is was.

a reply to: Revelations29

at the street level, everybody is in the same boat. you know how it says god allows the leaders to be leaders? it doesn't mention what god that might be. the god of this world is in control of who leads and who doesn't. and who is the god of this world? the same one that took jesus up into a high mountain and offered him the whole planet in exchange for working under him as a world leader. this is a long story that would pull the thread off topic.

anyway, by at the street level, i mean anyone who isn't high high up in powerful organizations or anyone who isn't a leader of a country or massive financial institution. the rest of us, even the atheists, are kept almost entirely in the dark about this.

a reply to: Revelations29

Mods don't usually get involved unless alerted, imo.

Religion makes people do dumb stuff, like pray to building pieces and pictures of "Jesus" on pieces of toast.

revelations29

one more point. right now in the middle east, atheists are being killed right alongside christians, jews, buddhists, and any muslisms that aren't of a particular faction. so you can see why atheists and the other groups are upset about it, as well. nobody wants to die just because of who they do or don't read.

Reminds me of these horror/excorcism movies where the possessed get all terrified and paranoid about religious symbols. How fragile are these peoples Egos that they get all bothered and go full-blown activist over a cross? Weird times.

a reply to: windword

it shouldn't matter to you, who/what people pray to, since you're not of an abrahamic faith, praying to false idols is not something you should be worried about. only they worry about whether a statue / wall / crossed timbers / holy meteorite / ark, etc, is worth praying to and have laws both for and against it. lol

Just a simple suggestion here... why not let those who found other religious symbols amongst the wreckage display them alongside the cross?

I just hope nothing fell into the shape of a crescent moon and star, because that would be like throwing salt on the wound.

As an atheist and even Anti-religious person, I couldn't care less about there being a cross there.

If this group has a problem with that, then what about the churches that line practically every street in the U.S.?

While the symbol traditionally annoys me when I see it on buildings that aren't churches, there's tons of people that find that symbol comforting, so, whatever.

I don't think religion belongs in public schools. I disagree with the notion of swearing on a bible in court.
However, I have 0 issues with some symbol near a disaster site where sad people can make themselves feel better about the tragedy by being near their symbol of choice.

originally posted by: windword

Religion makes people do dumb stuff, like pray to building pieces and pictures of "Jesus" on pieces of toast.

Sex and drugs make people do dumb stuff as well, much dumber stuff in fact. Why don't you condemn those as well?

originally posted by: Bone75
Just a simple suggestion here... why not let those who found other religious symbols amongst the wreckage display them alongside the cross?

I just hope nothing fell into the shape of a crescent moon and star, because that would be like throwing salt on the wound.

Well, if you can find one that already had established and understood historical significance, have at it. Just "finding" one now to make a point won't fly.

a reply to: undo

it shouldn't matter to you, who/what people pray to, since you're not of an abrahamic faith, praying to false idols is not something you should be worried about. only they worry about whether a statue / wall / crossed timbers / holy meteorite / ark, etc, is worth praying to and have laws both for and against it.

It doesn't matter to me in the least what people pray to, at least it doesn't matter until a religious shrine is placed on public land for a public memorial of a public disaster and paid for by public dollars. That IS against the law, in that it appears that the public's government is promoting a certain religion, in this case Christianity. Even if it's just this one time, which it isn't, it's the precedent it sets.

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: NavyDoc

St. Peter’s helped in the World Trade Center attack. So close to Ground Zero, the church sustained very little damage. Quickly on that fateful day, and the days that followed, St. Peter’s became the place workers brought emergency equipment, according to Father Kevin Madigan, the pastor. Medical supplies and food piled into the church too, and exhausted workers rested there. It was here that firefighters placed the body of their New York City Fire Department chaplain, Franciscan Father Mychal Judge, “Victim 0001” killed in the attack, before the altar.

Half a mile away, the parish’s mission of St. Joseph Chapel was stripped of pews and became the command center for police, firefighters and construction workers. Priests celebrated Mass in a tent. Now completely rebuilt, the chapel has a Catholic memorial at Ground Zero.


Read more: www.ncregister.com...

The image of the "cross" may have provided some solace to some people. but the shrine wasn't in the ruins where the beam was found lying, it was at the church, which IS memorialized at the 911 Memorial. I think the "cross" should be there, in or outside the church, where is was.

Why? Not all the first responders were Catholic. The beam was not part of the church's story, it was part of all the responders and thus should be in the public park. Do you hate Christianity so much you would disrespect the effort and sacrifice of those brave men and women in such a manner.

revelations29

perhaps the light of lucifer pike was referring to was just pure science. if such is the case, he's sorta lying about atheists being victims to this new order. there's a section of judaism that is pretty much atheistic. they follow the law about not praying to idols. they don't believe in the resurrection. their entire approach to their form of judaism is racially based and pertaining to controlling the gentiles of the planet, utterly, who they believe are nothing more than dumb animals. they are preoccupied with material gain and tried to make it look they were being charitable, when in fact they were robbing even their own people, blind. if you read the writings of some of the most famous atheists, or those who founded their sciences, it reads pretty much the same.

so maybe what pike means is the planet will soon be ruled by atheistic jews and advanced forward under the new religion of pure science. he makes it sound like pure science is too mechanistic and as such, will be revealed to be too cruel for a control mechanism. i doubt that's the real answer. it's more likely the pure science will be reserved for them and their bestest buddies, as has always been the case through out history, and the rest of us will be subjected to some junk about worshipping grass vibrations or something.

a reply to: windword

I am a bit worried about precedent this sets. Will there be people at every disaster now looking for something resembling a cross or their particular faith? What will be the cutoff? How many people does it have to mean something to? Yes I know what I describe is a slippery slope but these questions need to be asked and settled upon.


As I said I think the current form they have chosen to display the cross beam was done in poor taste and could have been made into a more fitting display that wasn't so exclusive.

a reply to: Grimpachi

I agree. It's cheap and it's in poor, poor taste the way it is now. They could have done so much more with that cross beam, like with the statue of the men lifting the flag at Iwo Jima.

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: undo

it shouldn't matter to you, who/what people pray to, since you're not of an abrahamic faith, praying to false idols is not something you should be worried about. only they worry about whether a statue / wall / crossed timbers / holy meteorite / ark, etc, is worth praying to and have laws both for and against it.

It doesn't matter to me in the least what people pray to, at least it doesn't matter until a religious shrine is placed on public land for a public memorial of a public disaster and paid for by public dollars. That IS against the law, in that it appears that the public's government is promoting a certain religion, in this case Christianity. Even if it's just this one time, which it isn't, it's the precedent it sets.

So you would take a chisel and remove all of the religious symbols off the grave stones in Arlington?

Having a religious symbol in a taxpayer funded place is neither unconstitutional nor against the law as long as it has cultural or historical significance. Otherwise you'd have to paint over most of the art in the capital rotunda.

a reply to: NavyDoc

serving your country as a christian, does not mean you are a human being, apparently. it just means you served your country. well done thou good and faithful dimwit, is pretty much how the fundie atheist can be read. i can understand their desire to see it be equal for everyone, but i think their version of equal for everyone means, no symbols allowed. nobody's religion but theirs, which is no religion. see how fair that is? it's completely equal.

the country is a melting pot. it would be difficult to represent everyone so the atheist solution is to represent nobody but atheists. in a way, it makes sense, but it also is too exclusive.

what a dilemma.

a reply to: NavyDoc

The beam was not part of the church's story, it was part of all the responders and thus should be in the public park.

The beam was one of many.

The World Trade Center was built using prefabricated parts which were bolted or welded together at the site. This process dramatically reduced construction time and costs. Using this process, t-beams and other types of cross beams were created and used in each of the World Trade Center buildings.

When the Twin Towers collapsed, it sent debris down on to 6 World Trade Center, and gutted the interior of World Trade Center 6. In the midst of the WTC6 debris was this intact cross beam, which its discoverer believes came from the North Tower

It was fabricated. It was made to look like a religious symbol.

On September 13 a worker at the site named Frank Silecchia discovered a 20 foot (6.1 meter) cross of two steel beams amongst the debris of 6 World Trade Center, and had a cross cut from it.

Did I say that there are many?

A replica has been installed at the gravesite of Father Mychal Judge, a New York City Fire Department chaplain who was killed in the collapse of WTC 1 on September 11. Other surviving crossbeams were salvaged from the rubble; one was given to a Far Rockaway, New York chapter of the Knights of Columbus in 2004. Another replica cross was fashioned by ironworkers from Trade Center steel and installed at Graymoor, the Upper West Side headquarters of the Society of the Atonement, a religious institute of Franciscan friars.

en.wikipedia.org...

Kinda sick really! Cutting crosses from the wreckage!

So you would take a chisel and remove all of the religious symbols off the grave stones in Arlington?

There's difference between a religious symbol and shrine. In my opinion, the 911 Memorial is no place to promote Christianity in the form of one, and only one, religious shrine.

911 Ground Zero is sacred ground and shouldn't be sullied with unnecessary and divisive religious crap. IMHO