Ground Zero Cross: Court presses atheist group to explain why artifact is 'offensive'

a reply to: undo

Sorry UNDu I couldn't listen to more than 10 minutes of it. Just that amount was heavily laden with BS. Some extraordinary claims. Does the video show extraordinary evidence for those claims at any point because if it doesn't it reads like sci fi. Words will not cut it.

originally posted by: Sremmos80
a reply to: tsingtao

How does the cross cover everyone....
Yes it my have a past of being involved with some other religions, but far from covering everyone.

That was the whole point of dying on the cross.

Grace is a hell of a thing.

a reply to: TiedDestructor

Sure if that is your belief, but if you don't subscribe to that or lend your faith to another deity or prophet then by no means does it cover you.

a reply to: Sremmos80

How does the cross cover everyone.... Yes it my have a past of being involved with some other religions, but far from covering everyone.

Long before a cross was a Christian symbol a cross was used as a grave marker . So in that context it covers all the dead there.

originally posted by: Sremmos80
a reply to: TiedDestructor

Sure if that is your belief, but if you don't subscribe to that or lend your faith to another deity or prophet then by no means does it cover you.

In the spirit of believing...just how you can't control the air around you; the same goes for grace.

Now I'm not religious but Id hope grace from anything good in this world covers me.

You may not want it but you have no choice in accepting it; if it exists of course. Now I'll steer back on topic.

originally posted by: Sremmos80
a reply to: TiedDestructor

Sure if that is your belief, but if you don't subscribe to that or lend your faith to another deity or prophet then by no means does it cover you.

it doesn't matter.

it's there if you want it. free.

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: undo

Yep, me too. For all this time, the cross was hung on the outside wall of the St. Peter's Parish, for all to see, with no problems.

Then it was replaced with a more stylized version after it was moved to where it is now.

Why would anyone have a problem with a cross hanging on a Christian church?

That's where they're supposed to hang.

a reply to: Annee

it was moved to ground zero cause that's where it came from

originally posted by: Grimpachi
a reply to: undo

Sorry UNDu I couldn't listen to more than 10 minutes of it. Just that amount was heavily laden with BS. Some extraordinary claims. Does the video show extraordinary evidence for those claims at any point because if it doesn't it reads like sci fi. Words will not cut it.

are you sure?

a reply to: undo

I just can't buy into the sparkly thingamajiggy with a button that will help them control the world.

a reply to: Grimpachi

Do you mean like taxfree status for religions?

Only if you can show that atheists have it within their power to revoke the tax free status of Churches and haven't done so. The limited power of atheists isn't something I question, it's what they would do if they had more that concerns me.

You were ranting

Care to provide anything in my statements that justifies your characterization of my writing as "ranting"? It's not "ranting" just because you say it is. I've seen a lot of trolls use the phrase "You were ranting" and similar.

you "think" atheists are going after more than just separation of church and state though you didn't give any examples.

Yes I "think" as opposed to "know" that atheists are going after more than just a separation of Church and state. I think it's safe to say you "think" rather than "know" they aren't. You're not on any stronger footing that I am in your "thinking". What I asked for was an example of atheists being tolerant of Christians, something you still haven't provided. If you can show me examples of how atheists have been tolerant to Christians it might assuage my concerns.

Who decides what is "within the bounds of decency and common sense"?

I think there are objective measures of this, but I don't expect you to agree. I'm sure you can imagine where I draw those objective standards/measures from, at least in part. Beyond that, the culture decides and they do so in this country by choosing who they put in office. I think the part of the culture that I represent has been asleep for too long, been too tolerant. I think it's time we woke up, understand the situation as it really is and act accordingly.

We have a system of courts that decide these things, but it seems you are not happy with how things are going.

Lets be honest, "the law says" and "the court says" gets thrown around a lot here on ATS, but only when what they say and how they interpret things align with the viewpoints/causes that speaker holds. If the ban against atheists serving on juries goes to court and the court finds that it's Constitutional, atheists won't simply shrug their shoulders and say "well it must be right because the court says so" Don't expect me to surrender my right to decide/advocate for what I think is right based on laws or the decisions of the courts. They've been wrong before and they'll be wrong again.

You seem pretty angry

Another phrase I've seen commonly used by trolls. Again, care to demonstrate what in my writing indicates anger?

The opposite of tolerance is intolerance and that is what you seem to be endorsing.

Endorsing? No, I'm not sure yet. Considering? Yes, as a matter of self preservation. I believe there are times when tolerance is not the right course of action and times when it is. I strive to be tolerant when I should and intolerant when I should be. I'm not wedded to the concept of tolerance as a virtue and so when I'm not tolerant I'm not being hypocritical, unlike some people.

If you are for changing the system to favor a religion and being intolerant of others not of that religion you are describing a theocracy

No, in and of itself that's not a theocracy, look it up.

I have to inform you that is not what our forefathers envisioned and is completely un-American.

I have to inform you, based on the historical record, the idea that the founding fathers envisioned a nation where Christians wouldn't be able to publically express their beliefs, that predominately Christian communities couldn't express there religious beliefs within their civic proceedings or that a cross would be removed from anywhere based on the say so of an atheist or Muslim is ludicrous and dishonest. As has been stated elsewhere here, freedom of religion, not freedom from religion was the goal and while the founding fathers were concerned with protecting minority elements within our society, they weren't advocating a tyranny of the minority. There isn't any Constitutional protection against being offended.

You can dress up your wording however you want, but there is an old saying of "don't piss on my back and tell me it's rain" which is exactly what you are doing

I could say the same about many atheists who claim they're only be advocating for separation of Church and state, tolerance and equality. In fact I am saying it.

Your last paragraph sounds like chest thumping and war drums.

Well, no chest thumping, just a dose of reality, that some of you anti Christians need to hear. As to war drums? Maybe, I hear it often enough from the other side. Maybe it's time more of us beat ours.

hopefully it will not come to another war like the last where Hitler felt that God wanted him to purge the earth of the unclean, impure, and unfit.

Please. I'm faced with two possibilities here, either you've been exposed to some really #ty pseudo scholarship and you really think that Hitler was a Christian and operated out of Christian motives, in which case I suggest you read up on the subject, or you know very well that he wasn't and you're behaving like a troll again. Either way, if you want to stand by the statement, open up a thread on the subject and either myself or someone else will school you on the subject.

Cultural Christian

That's me and a good chunk of non-Christians in the United States. Forget about the 75% of the nation that actually is Christian.

The U.S. wasn't founded as a Christian nation; it was, however, founded by men that were culturally Christian and got their philosophy from Western thought and teachings, which has been intertwined heavily with Christianity for the past 1500 years.

Christian iconography at a major national tragedy is appropriate in my opinion, like it or not.

originally posted by: Grimpachi
a reply to: undo

I just can't buy into the sparkly thingamajiggy with a button that will help them control the world.

what sparkly thingamajiggy? it's talking about cellphone towers and other electronic radiation, isn't it? i just noticed that everything that was said, is actually true today. ever seen this?



www.youtube.com...

www.youtube.com...

www.youtube.com...

so they are willing to collapse the world's economy. they put hundreds of thousands of small businesses in the usa alone out of business. what is there not to believe?

a reply to: imwilliam

Only if you can show that atheists have it within their power to revoke the tax free status of Churches and haven't done so.

So are you saying because we haven't gone after it means we can't?

Care to provide anything in my statements that justifies your characterization of my writing as "ranting"? It's not "ranting" just because you say it is. I've seen a lot of trolls use the phrase "

Don't believe I have to justify anything to you. Do I? If I do why? BTW it has been my experience that trolls are the first to throw out the word troll.

Yes I "think" as opposed to "know" that atheists are going after more than just a separation of Church and state. I think it's safe to say you "think" rather than "know" they aren't. You're not on any stronger footing that I am in your "thinking".

So let me get this strait. You want me to justify why I think your ranting yet your thinking needs no justification. Hmmm...OK.

I have to inform you, based on the historical record, the idea that the founding fathers envisioned a nation where Christians wouldn't be able to publically express their beliefs

What places can you not express your beliefs. Don't go on about public schools as that pertains to the staff/employeees of the state. Employees of the state represent the state and you can't have the state endorsing religion. That is part of the constitution as well.

Tell me the places "you" can't go and express your belief.

that predominately Christian communities couldn't express there religious beliefs within their civic proceedings

You seem kinda hung up on who the majority is. "We the Christians"...oh no that isn't how it goes it is "We the People".

or that a cross would be removed from anywhere based on the say so of an atheist or Muslim is ludicrous and dishonest.

You know there have been many debates about what the majority wanted and time and time again people need to be informed this is a constitutional republic not a democracy. You don't get to say what color of people get to sit where or what other people of other beliefs get sit where and you don't get to dictate what is exceptable simply because you are the majority.

As has been stated elsewhere here, freedom of religion, not freedom from religion was the goal and while the founding fathers were concerned with protecting minority elements within our society, they weren't advocating a tyranny of the minority.

Can you show where the founding fathers said that?

There isn't any Constitutional protecting against being offended.

That is right. Try to remember it.

Well, no chest thumping, just a dose of reality, that some of you anti Christians need to hear. As to war drums? Maybe, I hear it often enough from the other side. Maybe it's time more of us beat ours.

OK..well I beg to differ with all your I am in the majority I quote "if Christians in this country, which even today still hover at around 70% of the population, really decided that your beliefs/lifestyles/etc. weren't going to be tolerated, then they wouldn't be and the Constitution wouldn't protect you."

It is nothing but chest thumping.

Here I will thump back.

Please. I'm faced with two possibilities here, either you've been exposed to some really #ty pseudo scholarship and you really think that Hitler was a Christian and operated out of Christian motives, in which case I suggest you read up on the subject,

I have looked it up. You folks can deny it all you want, but they were his own words and his own claim. He knew himself better than you do.

or you know very well that he wasn't and you're behaving like a troll again.

Perhaps you are not familiar with T&C here or maybe you just don't care. This is me being tolerant.

Either way, if you want to stand by the statement, open up a thread on the subject and either myself or someone else will school you on the subject.

You want me to start a new thread on it. You are new here.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

If you don't like that one use the search function. Just type in the words Hitler was Christian and there are 10500 links for that on ATS.

originally posted by: TiedDestructor

originally posted by: Char-Lee

originally posted by: TiedDestructor

originally posted by: Char-Lee

originally posted by: TiedDestructor
a reply to: Char-Lee

Well this memorial is in America.

And to a lot of peoples represents every single human life that was "taken" that day.

Their countries can choose how they depict their memorials; we won't be offended. Scouts honor...

Yes deluded and dumb and stupid too. Soooo sorry.

I am not sure what you are saying? All Americans are Christian? Or only the majority of belief systems should be represented and not by who was killed but by the country they died in?

No. I would have just said that.

What I said was pretty self-explanatory and delving into the issue microscopically serves no further purpose than to complicate the discussion.

Hummm so you are saying,

Well this memorial is in America.

And to a lot of peoples represents every single human life that was "taken" that day.

Their countries can choose how they depict their memorials; we won't be offended. Scouts honor...

Ok... thanks for clarifying that.

So your deluded comprehension hinders your ability to conceive and appropriate a legitimate response?

"Um so your saying".... What? Your countering me with my own statements?

Dang...

a reply to: undo

Look undo I just don't buy it. If you are trying to get me to believe that in 1957 they knew there would be cell phone towers I am not going to buy into it.

Something that may sound similar but isn't. You know people have been interpreting things like Nostradamus for years in every era they find something similar but isn't.

I understand what happened with the financial meltdown. I lived it. I watched 10 minutes of that video can't take any more.

You are going to need to give me a real good reason to watch 4 more youtube videos.

a reply to: Grimpachi

oh, well it was deliberate and it followed exactly what they said they were going to do. take control of the usa economy and bankrupt the world.

a reply to: undo

Its cool man. I am just not into that stuff.

My standard for evidence is pretty high.


Ever since I watched a bunch of free energy videos that got me wound up. I even tried to duplicate some of the experiments. After I felt like a fool.

I did get acquire a significant amount of knowledge on the matter from it so it wasn't a total bust, but I have become very weary of youtube since.

a reply to: Grimpachi

how far ahead of actual technological break thrus do you think our technological industries actually are, versus what they tell us?

i like the space program, don't get me wrong.

a reply to: undo

Lab wise about 8 years ahead of this www.abovetopsecret.com...


Some very high level practical applications they are probably a year ahead.


I have a cousin that works at the pentagon in charge of installing systems 10 years ago he was in charge of the entire satellite IT section. Most of my family on my mothers side worked in various positions in Washington even have an Aunt whom I am unsure of her position, but was always on diplomatic positions. My neighbor worked for NASA and now is working for DOD designing a dart like projectile and cannon to destroy mines for the NAVY.


Look I know a lot of people think the military is decades ahead of everything else and there are all these super secret advanced projects going on but the reality isn't as exciting.