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Ground Zero Cross: Court presses atheist group to explain why artifact is 'offensive'

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posted on Jun, 22 2014 @ 08:12 PM
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a reply to: imwilliam

long story, starting mostly at the events leading up to the enlightenment. they single handedly made most of the ancient texts of the world bare the mythology sticker. their priests started the enlightenment which resulted in the slaughter of catholics all over europe. let me put it this way, the vatican is actually a catholic person's worst enemy. and they don't like protestants even moreso. the usa's christian population is mostly protestant except for the hispanic catholic population coming up from south of the border. their military (yep they have their own military) was knee deep in communism and fascism, at the same time.

i like catholic people. i don't trust the vatican at all.




posted on Jun, 22 2014 @ 08:12 PM
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a reply to: Grimpachi





have you ever had an atheist come ringing your doorbell on Saturday


Nope but I have had bosses try to push atheism down my throat with the veiled threat of lack of advancement if I clung to those superstitions. This was with a government job I just sucked it up and made the best of it. I have inlaws who belittle me all the time over my beliefs always trying to convert me to atheism . There is no holier than thou grounds in that respect.

like I said 50 years of tolerance I am tired of it . You want respect GIVE Respect.


edit on 22-6-2014 by Lostinthedarkness because: goofed



posted on Jun, 22 2014 @ 08:15 PM
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a reply to: undo

Yep, me too. For all this time, the cross was hung on the outside wall of the St. Peter's Parish, for all to see, with no problems.



Then it was replaced with a more stylized version after it was moved to where it is now.






edit on 22-6-2014 by windword because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 22 2014 @ 08:18 PM
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a reply to: Wookiep




I do feel the "fight" is against Christianity itself more than religion as a whole. Would the Atheists be crying in the same fashion had a statue of Buddha was the symbol of choice? Something tells me, I don't think so..


I agree Wookiep and I starred your post. I rarely see the ire directed towards Christianity by atheists directed towards other religions, not even Islam, which is arguably much less tolerant than Christianity in this day and age.

I think Christians need to understand that so many of these "fights" for tolerance and equality are nothing of the sort. They're an attempt to dominate and subjugate, in a piece meal fashion, and I believe are primarily motivated by a hatred/disrespect for Christianity.



posted on Jun, 22 2014 @ 08:18 PM
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a reply to: windword

it's possible that may also be their doing, i mean if they can get atheists riled up at christians and vice-a-versa they can hopefully count on more dead christians, particularly protestants, when they pull the economic rug out from under our country.

your religious figure is not lenin or einstein or darwin. it's pope whatever ____ fill in the blank. all the atheists have to do is ask the vatican for help. afterall, they relieved the planet of millions of religious people during the inquistion. if what you want is fewer religious people, the pope's your man
edit on 22-6-2014 by undo because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 22 2014 @ 08:21 PM
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a reply to: Grimpachi




have you ever had an atheist come ringing your doorbell on Saturday



Lol, stay tuned my friend. The way Atheism is spreading, it wouldn't be surprising to see it soon. Atheism is being preached everywhere now, just like a religion. Weird isn't it?

Anyway, there are only 2 groups that primarily go door to door and that is the Mormons and Jehovah's witnesses. I agree, it's annoying, but It's not Christianity as a whole that does it.
edit on 22-6-2014 by Wookiep because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 22 2014 @ 08:30 PM
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a reply to: Grimpachi




When my father was dieing in the hospital I was interrupted several times by pastors and such trying to get me to pray with them. My dad was dying neither of us were religious and I was very polite in telling them this, but it didn't matter. I found it very intrusive yet I was still polite and put up with it.


I am sorry that transpired. My view once or twice of decline of the offer should have been respected.

I feel what happened there was as distasteful as what happened to me.



posted on Jun, 22 2014 @ 08:46 PM
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a reply to: Lostinthedarkness

i've had both atheist and religious bigotry experiences, so my view is a bit more neutral leaning moreso to the side of the religious folks but sympathetic enough to the plight of atheists, to defend their rights as well.



posted on Jun, 22 2014 @ 08:51 PM
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a reply to: Lostinthedarkness

What happened to you was distasteful as you described it, an unfortunate experience and encounter with someone hostile towards religion. I may get loud online about my nonbelief but when dealing with people in real life I believe in being respectful and tolerant. IMO I really think the internet has been instrumental in bringing atheists together and giving us a voice. Before that it was a bit tougher to be a non believer.

It has been my experience that those who are as the person you described usually have been harmed in some way by religion or have just left religion. Sometimes both. I went o a local atheist meeting once called recovering from religion. I didn't really belong there as I have never been deeply scared by it, but I didn't feel right getting up and leaving. Let me tell you there have been some people that have been seriously screwed up by religion and hey are angry. I can't blame them based on their stories because for some people it has been downright abusive to them.

The only common ground I shared with that group was a lack of belief in deities. So all I can say is everybody has their story, reasons, and personal beliefs. BTW I never went back to that meeting even though we were all atheists we had nothing else in common. I really should have enquired more before going there in the first place. I had been to some other meetings and all we did was play video trivia and drink beer or go bowling. Man was I surprised.

edit on 22-6-2014 by Grimpachi because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 22 2014 @ 08:52 PM
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a reply to: Grimpachi



Do you mean like how there are still laws in states banning atheists from holding office or serving on juries?


Yes, just like that, only more of them and directed at Christians. Thanks for illustrating the point that the Constitution does not provide perfect protection. As I said there have been and continue to be examples of Christian tolerance as well as intolerance. So were you able to come up with any examples of tolerance on the part of atheists towards Christians that I asked about?

As far as whether I think those laws should be there, it depends. If it's a choice between atheists being marginalized or Christians, then I'd prefer that it was atheists and yes, I am beginning to wonder if that isn't the choice we as a nation are faced with.



Spoken like a true theocracy advocate.


That doesn't follow from what I said, in fact I was clear that I advocated a separation of Church and State within the bounds of decency and common sense, as I believe the founding fathers did. You're throwing out a straw man argument and falsely characterizing what I said, purposely so I think.



The most recent witch trials were in the name of rooting out the communists and if you were an atheist you were labeled a communist.


I assume you're talking about McCarthy. If so, that's a simplistic and unbalanced understanding of what was going on during that time in our country. Even more so based on the relatively recently published Verona transcripts and what we've learned through other sources about the USSR's funding of groups within the United States during that time frame.



Anyway I have news for you it wasn't that Christians became any more tolerant


And I have news for you, if Christians in this country, which even today still hover at around 70% of the population, really decided that your beliefs/lifestyles/etc. weren't going to be tolerated, then they wouldn't be and the Constitution wouldn't protect you. Even though we may not like what you say, you're only able to say it because we as Christians allow it. You're only able to stick your head out of your hole because we permit it. The case was only more so in the past.



posted on Jun, 22 2014 @ 08:56 PM
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a reply to: undo

Interesting thoughts Undo, I can't say that my reaction is to agree at first blush, but I haven't read much about it and maybe it's something to explore in another thread if it hasn't been already?

Thanks for the explanation.



posted on Jun, 22 2014 @ 09:01 PM
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a reply to: undo

I wish we could find a truce . but The freedom of religion is now freedom from religion they cant even lay their eyes on any thing christian .



posted on Jun, 22 2014 @ 09:06 PM
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a reply to: Lostinthedarkness

fulfilling the occult role of out with the old age, in with the new. out with the fish people, in with the water man. funny thing, the water man IS the leader of the fish people. hehe. (he's the sumerian enki, who is ea, who is iah, who is yah, who is yahweh/ bows at applause. thank you thank you, you're too kind. hehe)



posted on Jun, 22 2014 @ 09:09 PM
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a reply to: imwilliam

hey if you're catholic, i love ya man. don't worry. they can't make me be mad at catholics. i only mistrust the vatican and their capitoline hill... hey wait a minute...capitoline hill, capital hill. i am seeing a congruence here. how'd that happen? which one of our presidents ratted us out?



posted on Jun, 22 2014 @ 09:16 PM
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a reply to: imwilliam




So were you able to come up with any examples of tolerance on the part of atheists towards Christians that I asked about?


Do you mean like taxfree status for religions?

You were ranting on and on about how you "think" atheists are going after more than just separation of church and state though you didn't give any examples.

When you said you agree with separation of church and state "within the bounds of decency and common sense".

let me ask you this. Who decides what is "within the bounds of decency and common sense"?

We have a system of courts that decide these things, but it seems you are not happy with how things are going. Do you wish to change the system and laws? You seem pretty angry talking about how Christians have been to tolerant. The opposite of tolerance is intolerance and that is what you seem to be endorsing.

If you are for changing the system to favor a religion and being intolerant of others not of that religion you are describing a theocracy and I have to inform you that is not what our forefathers envisioned and is completely un-American.

You can dress up your wording however you want, but there is an old saying of "don't piss on my back and tell me it's rain" which is exactly what you are doing.

Your last paragraph sounds like chest thumping and war drums. Oh well..the world has seen plenty of Christian soldiers hopefully it will not come to another war like the last where Hitler felt that God wanted him to purge the earth of the unclean, impure, and unfit.



posted on Jun, 22 2014 @ 09:20 PM
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a reply to: Grimpachi

if you can stand listening to some guy read someone else's book, this might help. now before you do, and if you do, listen to it, consider they are describing FASCISM. think about that while you listen. it'll fry your potatoes



posted on Jun, 22 2014 @ 09:22 PM
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a reply to: Metallicus

I think its because not only christians died in those towers. There were people of all different kind of faiths so it's offensive to the families of the dead.



posted on Jun, 22 2014 @ 09:30 PM
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originally posted by: DumpMaster
a reply to: Metallicus

I find it "slightly" offensive. It would be completely offensive if it had the traditional corpse hanging off it, but, I think it is slightly offensive because it exclude all non-christians who were murdered on that day.

If it is just a cross, it is a bit offensive. If it is a cross and there are other things there to respect non-christians as well, then I don't see it as offensive, as long as it is not the only thing.


don't worry, that cross covers everybody, if that's the problem.

whether you think so or not.

does your symbol of choice do that?

probably not, that's why the hand-wringing, gnashing of teeth and rending of clothes.



posted on Jun, 22 2014 @ 09:49 PM
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Sometimes I laugh at indoctrinated people. Like the people who say include all religions.

there are around 4,200 religions world wide.



posted on Jun, 22 2014 @ 09:57 PM
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a reply to: tsingtao

How does the cross cover everyone....
Yes it my have a past of being involved with some other religions, but far from covering everyone.



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