Firefighter chases dog and both are missing 411?

a reply to: WanDash



You know the thing about coincidences Wan?
When you get to many involved for an event to
come together. And all are vitaly important to
the events occurrence? It seems there should be
a tolerance level whereby once breached, it can
no longer be called coincidental. But I get what
you mean.

And hey you guys are still plug'n away on this and I
have the greatest reason for fall'n out of touch.

Finally got my ass back to work and I'm stoked.

But i'm still game to go out there with who ever wants to go?
I have a ride and room and it's prolly 2-3 hours away. Rattlers are all
down for the winter by now and the weather is perfect.

Badger prints taking some interest here. Very cool.

High five Wan!

a reply to: randyvs
Glad you're working & understand being stoked...as well.

Have you given much thought to how you/we would get to the campsite?

Seems we would have 3 somewhat possible routes...

1. The one Herdman & Byars took - which is reported to be 'challenging'.
It would be the shortest route possible (that I am aware of)...
2. The path Herdman & Byars had intended to hike-out.
More of a straight shot... Would be in the creek most of the way...through Devil's Gate - - (meaning - to me - no way out of the creek bottoms for a long way).
3. The longest route is almost 15 miles...to the campsite... But this is the more travelled of any of the possibilities, and actually has trails for a good portion of the distance (like 9 or more miles).

In my opinion - this will be a minimum 3-day outing...if everything goes well.

ETA: Forget everything above...if you have a whirly-bird. Even then, it would still need to be 2 days.

a reply to: WanDash

Have you given much thought to how you/we would get to the campsite?

No I haven't, i just felt like we should all be apart of
the decisions and logistics once in company. Cart before
the horse and all that.

Do you like horses?

a reply to: randyvs
I like horses.
Haven't had a lot of experience with them...though my grandfather was a rancher.
Last time I met one...it took the middle three fingers of my right hand between its teeth, and held them securely, for about 15 seconds...while we communicated telepathically.

a reply to: WanDash

Last time I met one...it took the middle three fingers of my right hand between its teeth, and held them securely, for about 15 seconds...while we communicated telepathically.

This might just get weird enough for me after all.

a reply to: WanDash
On a expedition like this, would your party be armed? Like shotguns for rattler (are they endagered?) or what one make use of; and rifles or handguns for anti-personell use?
I am asking because are here we only carry firearms when we are in hunting season and on our hunting grounds.

a reply to: WanDash

I know this might sound twisted but I keep thinking about the dog.
Another reason the dog could have been running ahead of Mike &
Mike not having time to donning his boots is maybe Byars was
attacking Mike (maybe the fisherman were or were not part of it)
& Mike & Duke had to run for their life.

I think the fishermen are strange. I did a lot of trout fishing in
Southern CA. If someone came to me in Byars condition I would be helping
them & sending my buddy to go back & retrieve our belongings & head
to the sheriff's dept. That whole part of the story makes NO sense.
That is why I entertained the above possibility.

Cheers
Ektar

a reply to: Ektar
So - under this scenario - you are suggesting that Byars (big boy…&…possibly, the fishermen) spooked Duke and Herdman.

If it was just Byars - I don't see Duke running off…before Herdman.

Byars would need to be pretty cunning and intense to pull that off.

He would need to get Duke warm enough to let his guard down…so he could land an "out of nowhere" punch or kick…

Herdman would not have been aware of it…(unless he was already terrified of Byars - but, usually - the dog will not trust someone that you do not trust - & Duke would not have let his guard that far down around someone he had no reason to trust) ---

Again - though - there are scenarios that would justify someone/Byars being good enough to pull this off… (self-made mercenary, gov't-made mercenary, industry-bought mercenary, mob…)

The two fishermen could have been the backup &/or cleanup crew.
The fishermen could have blown a dog whistle.

For any of that to work, though, we would want to know why Herdman would be special-enough that such efforts were worth it?

If Byars had not been in/at the precinct for long - where was he, before?
Looks like a college linebacker or tight-end in the few photos I've seen.
Martial Artist – 27.

Is it possible that someone would 'want Herdman' bad enough to place a killer into a/the locker next to Herdman’s…to buddy up…and cozy up…long enough to go through an elaborate charade…and kill Herdman…and cover it with a crappy story?

If so (minus the crappy cover story), then we’re probably looking at a deep grudge or vendetta.
Too easy to put a bullet in him.
Too much time to wait…for “I want him dead!”
Unless you have something special to give him…like…payback…

I had wondered if it could simply be something he’d seen, in the course/s of his Firefighting career…
But, the kind of vendetta that would justify…waiting…plotting…and killing… – … That looks personal, to me.

I know that these aren’t the only paths of thought on your proposition…
Just, my initial thought.
Good talking with you, again.

a reply to: EllsworthToohey
Hi, EllsworthToohey

I think about that a bit.
Don't know what the rules would be in California.

But - if I hear Anything...I will be screaming like a little kid.
I understand that they are frightened of adults screaming like little kids...
I hope so.


ETA: I am not a hunter.
I know little to nothing about guns, rifles, shotguns other than - I don't want one shooting me.
I have no antlers, nor do I waddle like a duck.
I don't even make a good practice target.
So - I usually rely on others with guns and with gun experience to choose or not to choose to bring guns.

a reply to: Ektar
The fishermen are strange to me, as well.
Seems that my first impression/s of them, were – ‘police’ or ‘firefighters’.
Kinda tossed that away, wanting to be comfortable believing at least, parts of the story.
But, now that we’ve revisited the part that the fishermen played…and how much is left to imagination…other possibilities are emerging.

Why would the media be satisfied with this story?
Why would the general public be satisfied with this story?
Since when does someone
- that rescued one soul,
- and gone through great effort/s and inconvenience to invest even greater effort in locating the campsite & confirming details
- …not pass that information along to authorities
- …For the Record…
- and to make that wasted fishing date count for something?

If it had been me (as one of the fishermen), and I was concerned enough with the story of the man that had interrupted the plans and efforts of my fisherman partner & me – and for whom I’d forsaken my plans, enough to listen to his story…then take him at his word…and back to civilization
…Then, find a way to “help” (if possible), by making my way to where it had taken he and his missing partner two days to hike
…And…I make it back there…presumably during the daylight…and actually locate the campsite where the rescued-feller said it would be
… And, I find the bag of supplies that the rescued-feller said he left for the missing-feller
… But – I don’t find anything-else that would help anyone out
… I AM STILL going to call the authorities…to let them know
- what just happened…and
- what I did…and
- why… AND
- …WHAT I SAW
- & didn’t saw
- & thought I saw,
- but couldn’t say
- for sure
- …(‘cause it was getting too dark)…
- WHAT I WOULD NOT HAVE DONE, was
- WAIT
- until I heard that
- this feller
- was still missing…

If it sounds that obviously Wrong to me/us…is it possible that every “reporter/journalist/news-outlet” that touched this story…totally missed it?
No-one thought to ask if they could interview these two heroes…?
No-one thought to report – “The fishermen refused to be interviewed” – or – “Could not be reached” – or – “The Sheriff’s office would not give details regarding the fishermen…”
I do not recall ONE question in the media…regarding the fishermen –or their story/ies.

Anyway…
Our suspicions could easily be proven wrong…if someone would just give some honest answers.

a reply to: WanDash

What if Byars was into drugs or something nefarious & Herdsman
just happen to catch or see something about Byars that he wasn't
suppose to see or know. Yes a bullet would be simple but others
may hear the shot...possible to trace gun & ammo....so it would
be easy for Byars just to pull a weapon (or not) but scared Herdsman
enough to run for his life & the dog of course would be running with
him & most likely ahead of him a wee bit.
Forcing someone off a cliff can be easily explained as some kind of accident.
Also might make the dog scared & uneasy not knowing who to trust.

The dog also may have been avoiding people or being captured because
he was trying to find his master...over the cliff maybe no scent to pick up.
So maybe the fisherman were on clean up.

Cheers
Ektar

a reply to: WanDash

FWIW, If I recall correctly David Paulides said many if not all of the missing people were unarmed.

He also said:

Personally, I would never go into any woods unarmed.

Besides a Gun it might not be a bad idea to rent or buy a Satellite transponder like the SPOT . www.findmespot.com...
Then you could posts your position for ATS to follow online.

a reply to: interupt42

Wow what an idea! A live search on ATS.
Now that would be fun for ALL to see.

Cheers
Ektar

a reply to: interupt42

Sorry, got lagged then it double posted.

Cheers
Ektar

a reply to: Ektar
I am quasi-satisfied to accept statements attributed to the professional trackers…regarding the tracks found down-stream…and what was interpreted from said tracks.
That information, and the way it was delivered – was, imo, the way a tracker would relate.
If Byars was with or following …to where the authorities said Herdman was last seen…he would need to have retracked himself – after the dirty deed…to disguise or annul any evidences…where they shouldn’t be.
It seems to me that the plan Herdman had put together…was to hike out on Sunday (Father’s Day). That suggests that he was planning on one more night under the stars after leaving the 2nd night’s campsite – being the fateful Friday-night campsite.
Right in the middle of the planned trip…would put you the farthest away from both ends of the trail.
That – in part – is a coincidence that does not look good for Byars (or another boogey-man).
If not for the footprints of Herdman found ‘leaving the campsite’…we would not be able to ‘lean’ on the probability that he was ever at the campsite.

To your postulation that Herdman saw Byars doing something naughty…I’m sure that’s possible.

Unless others were involved…(and – by “others” – I’m suggesting LE, LEOs, the Firehouse, or higher in government)…I don’t see Byars pulling this off by hisself.
Of all the news agencies that cared to profit from this “Heartbreaking, Terrifying Tale of Bravery, Peril, Brotherhood and a dog named Duke”…no-one has seen fit to even consider what they printed?
Does “News” just roll through them like – diarrhea?
When the story has appropriately ‘filled the slot’ – is it the same as having ‘never happened’. ..?

Maybe this story just wasn't important enough.
Maybe they couldn’t focus on ‘old news’.
Regardless of why – they let the fishermen get away; they let Byars alone; they reported what they were told to report…and were satisfied with empty or conflicting answers --- not to mention --- “Not a peep about…The Case Is Sealed!

“You heard it hear, first, folks. Right on ATS. Our very own randyvs broke the news that The Case Is Sealed!”

Ektar

a reply to: interupt42
What if I die?
Everyone will get bored...

a reply to: Ektar
(Part II)

So – what do you think?
The answer to this mystery will lie in the mundane?

What if…the story Byars related was true…?

Then – here’s one to add to Paulides’ Missing 411 series.

If it was true…with nothing super major fragilistic missing…and the dog took off from camp around 9:30 PM that Friday evening… And, Mike Herdman pursued the dog, with enough urgency that he did not don footwear or other protective clothing (and – we have regularly assumed – no flashlight or weapon/s or tool/s) … … …and… … …somehow, Byars and Herdman were together for at least some portion of the search…and…agreed (?)…to go different routes…and, that parting was the last Byars saw or heard Herdman…despite other efforts that evening…and more, the following day…(and night?)… … …and he makes a heady decision to ‘go for help’ – but, realizes he may be leaving too soon…and leaves supplies for his stranded friend (whom he suspects is back at one of the vehicles waiting for him - with this being some kind of practical joke )…
But – on his hike out – he loses his bearing/s.
Desperate, dehydrated, disoriented and even dazed, sometime on Sunday, he stumbles into two fishermen (Templars?)…who believe him…and assist him back to his vehicle…
He must have told them the whole story, and, after finding two strong shoulders to lean on – he spills the beans – recalls everything – even…how to get back to the campsite…and how far down the creek he travelled, before turning back to the campsite…
And – of course – being Templars ‘n’all, the fishermen cast aside their cares, and rushed to the aid of the missing friend…keeping an eye out for any tell-tale signs…such as – location of the campsite, and supplies left for the missing hiker…and…FIND IT…in record time…
And – that was it!
Nothing – or – virtually nothing – about Herdman or Duke or “I was yelling to the top of my lungs, and got nothing back.”

Forgive me – some Templars, while brave and true, have embarrassing priorities…if you ask me.

That would be, pretty much, The Byars’ Story… (tongue-in-cheek added)

This is the kind of story that needs some magic…or drugs…or beast…to fill in the gaping holes.
And…that may be the case.

a reply to: randyvs
[yousaid] “…the thing about coincidences…
- Too many involved for an event to come together
- All vitally important to the event’s occurrence..."

…I would add
– such ‘confluences of events’ are normally attributed to intelligence, design or…orchestration.
Why is that the wrong answer in this case?

a reply to: WanDash

My good man, there is no right or wrong answer in
this case. I just look at the similarities to other cases
not as coincidence and think because of those similarities
Herdman was killed by someone or something as it were. There
is an obvious cover up going on as Paulides has made evident. And
because of all that coupled with the fact that they don't suspect Byars
in any way? It all points to the unknown by my reasoning and the unknown,
is only that. UNKNOWN.

Very naive on their part to go n the boonies unarmed during rattle snake
season especially. That's the first reason the sidearm was made for in the first
place. I mean, what a couple a dudes?

If the following seems disjointed – that was the aim…
It is simply the evolution of conjecture…

The more I look at this story, the more it looks ‘contrived’ or ‘conspired’…
Such an explanation would require complicity in the media, Law Enforcement, Emergency Services, City Hall, and…individuals throughout the Firefighting & Search & Rescue communities of West Coast, California.

And that would make for a daunting hill to climb…

Could Herdman have committed some crime against the “code” in/of one-or-more of these communities/institutions…that all other ‘brotherhoods’ would honor (turn a blind eye toward)?
If so – that is one tight-lipped community.

This case is one of ‘the worst luck’ (for Herdman) and ‘the best luck’ (for Byars - & everything Byars touched).

Not only is Byars novice at hiking…but virgin to the Los Padres…
Yet – two days into the Sespe Wilderness…when the veteran (even – renowned among those claiming to have known & hiked with him) outdoorsman who had taken this journey three times before, does everything wrong…including his final step/s…
…while Byars…does everything (but locate his hiking partner & Duke) right
…his disorientation and confusion and dehydration…all, apparently worked together to place him on a path to meet, perhaps, the only two people in the mountains, that day…that could & would both help him, & verify his story for the authorities…
…and (luck) enabled them to make sense-enough of his directions, to think it not unfoolish to attempt to rush to the scene…and give what support they might muster
--- and --- they are lucky enough to actually find the location and bag… * ! * …but made no mention of either Herdman or Duke.

And – if you look at it through another lens…Duke appears to have been endowed with a significant dose of luck, himself.
Cougars, rattlesnakes, bear, boogie-monsters…each and all could have gotten him, too…
He could have starved…
…‘could have remained in the vicinity of Sespe Creek, the campsite or Mike Herdman’s body another day or two –
-- SCARED of people ---- ?
Now – what makes a dog go from “so scared of people (for at least 7 days) that professionals completely failed to capture”, to walking up to someone in a parking lot, and allowing them to hold him in their lap…in just two days…?
True – we could suggest – “survival/starvation” (note, however, that Duke was not reported as ‘mal/under-nourished’ but rather, ‘dehydrated’).
So he had water all around (creeks, pools, hot springs), but emerges from a week +/- of no automatic feeding…apparently unaffected --- but, thirsty… ?

Could be sold as A Tale of Three Lucks.