Firefighter chases dog and both are missing 411?

This forum seems appropriate.

Above Top Secret

There is just no reason this guy should not be able to survive
these past five to six days, considering his experience, fitness,
and the mild conditions he's had to face.

I'm posting this because I think it's time ATS starts watching just
exactly what is going on with these, seemingly familiar circumstances
Involved with this missing Arcadia Ca firefighter. Seemed odd enough
to me a couple days ago but I waited thinking they
would find the thirtysix Y-O Herdman.

But this may be shaping up to be another one for Missing 411. I mean you
add it up and tell me.

Well just about anything can and does happen in the wilderness..

It always cracks me up when people post ....

"Well I've been in the wilderness umpteen years"
"I've never had XXXXXXX happen"
"I would have XXXXXXXX"
(Fill in the Xs)

Anytime someone posts such garbage, you know they truly have little experience..

In the wilderness, one small mistake, that even the most seasoned professional can easily make, can put you into a life and death struggle..

I hope this guy and his dog turn up Okay...

Fit man, mild conditions, just chasing a dog.... no dog returning on its own? I think he met the wrong crowd and they have him and the dog (the evidence). Foul play. Or, the dog has remained by its masters side and he is dead or disabled. But really.... its a fair sized search and even a nube in the woods should have absorbed SOME survival skills if only from watching tv. He had water, a warm dog, was fit, fuels for fires if he could start one.... which alone is a good idea for signalling searchers, if not heat at night. So, foul play is my guess so far.

a reply to: semperfortis

I waited to post because I thought for sure this would turn
out good. As you and I of course hope. But the time is just
getting beyond that now IMO. For a guy like this I mean.
Still hoping for good news today but thought it would be
good to post now and watch this develop either way.

a reply to: jaxnmarko

I wondered first off how a dog and a man just disappear
right under the nose of the person they're with? And he
just comes walk'n out with out them?

At what point does he quit looking for them?

I bet something spooked him to just give up like that and
we never get the full story.

a reply to: randyvs

What a horrible story, I sincerely hope they find him and his dog.
He was barefoot and just in shorts and T shirt when he left 5 days ago? That doesn't sound good to me. It only takes a few seconds to break a bone or slip and fall.
I see what you mean though, it has the hallmarks of a 411 type of case. Hopefully this one will have a happy ending.

i cant cope any longer what is a 411 please

ps hope they are found safe and well
a reply to: beansidhe

Wouldn't a search and rescue be made easier if they had a few drones available. But then again people are do hell bent on saying drones are nothing but killing machines

a reply to: randyvs

There's no reason he couldn't have survived?
Surely running off into an unknown, uninhabited area with only a t shirt and shorts provides with us at least 1000 good reasons why he could be dead.

Some guy on the Missing 411 thread lives in a national park and he was incredulous that people were surprised by the numbers given the lack of knowledge MOST people visiting national parks have about survival.

I enjoy a bigfoot tale every now and again and the 411 stuff is interesting but when your example is a guy running off (i.e with no prior planning) after a dog in his pants it sort of undermines the mystery.

Stub toe, trip, bang head, get eaten by any scavenger that has evolved to smell Cadaverene/ death (the thing about not finding clothes always makes me think of how my shoes routinely go missing if left outside over night in the UK....it's the foxes and the smell of Humans on a strange material makes a good play thing for their cubs).

I hate to think how many animals might take/move human clothing for other such uses in a big a forest...

a reply to: maryhinge

David Paulides has written a number of books about inexplicable disappearances in the North American wilderness:

A tip from a national park ranger led to this 4+ years and a 9000 hour investigative effort into understanding the stories behind people who have vanished. The book chronicles children, adults and the elderly who disappeared, sometimes in the presence of friends and relatives. As Search and Rescue personnel exhaust leads and places to search, relatives start to believe kidnappings and abductions have occurred. The belief by the relatives is not an isolated occurrence; it replicates itself time after time, case after case across North America.

It was called Missing 411, and he's had several books since then too. They are full of very strange and sad stories about people who just seem to vanish, sometimes whilst in the company of parents or friends. I think Randy is wondering whether this might be a similar incident

I wouldn't think a barefoot man would make it very far from camp. That no trace has been found is very concerning.
I think I would want to wear a GPS unit if I were camping in a National Park, after reading David Paulides books!

a reply to: beansidhe

We're on the same page.

Well just about anything can and does happen in the wilderness.. It always cracks me up when people post .... "Well I've been in the wilderness umpteen years" "I've never had XXXXXXX happen" "I would have XXXXXXXX" (Fill in the Xs) Anytime someone posts such garbage, you know they truly have little experience.. In the wilderness, one small mistake, that even the most seasoned professional can easily make, can put you into a life and death struggle.. I hope this guy and his dog turn up Okay...

I agree with you but your assumption that one small mistake can (easily?) lead to a death struggle seems a bit sensational.

I grew up with a gun in my hand and a dog at my side in Northern Montana and have hiked and camped alone (save for my dog) more times than I can count. My experiences are my own, I'm not at all bragging just sharing,. I don't know your experience but I can tell you that to put one small mistake, easily and death struggle in the same sentence is pretty sensational IMHO.

I make small mistakes all the time in the bush, who doesn't? Perfection hardly exists anywhere, especially alone on a mountain. A careless step/sprained ankle can of course happen, getting over excited and thinking you can go further than your body will allow... Ha ha happens almost every time I'm out! But usually not enough firewood or a root in the back from a poor choice of sleeping spots is the extent of easily made mistakes. Inclimate weather...The list can go on for a while for sure and while these can technically lead to death struggles, IMHO, it's rather unlikely that such lead to his ordeal. Due to how quickly and thorough the response was. Hard to loose yourself when you have heavily trained dogs looking for you...Again, IMHO.

I know personally that without anything too insidious happening, a person can survive out and about in the temperatures and terrain he's in for a week especially if they have his experience with the area, a water supply and are in good shape. They wouldn't like it much and would be aching for some good food and a soft bed when they're found but its doable. Again, this is talk in a forum so I understand your original reply, really I do! Cheers

a reply to: spookysully

Hard to loose yourself when you have heavily trained dogs looking for you...Again, IMHO.

There it is. Another point I was waiting for someone to bring up? When dogs
are given a scent especially a human scent. How do they not come up
with a human? Body or whatever? Good dogs don't get skunked from my
understanding.

See this just doesn't make a lick of sense. Because guy runs into dark
after dog. Guy falls gets hurt, disabled, he's still in the immediate area.
Easy find for partner even looking for him. Guy doesn't get hurt and
keeps going after dog? Alone? Barefoot? Doesn't add up!

originally posted by: semperfortis
Well just about anything can and does happen in the wilderness..

It always cracks me up when people post ....

"Well I've been in the wilderness umpteen years"
"I've never had XXXXXXX happen"
"I would have XXXXXXXX"
(Fill in the Xs)

Anytime someone posts such garbage, you know they truly have little experience..

In the wilderness, one small mistake, that even the most seasoned professional can easily make, can put you into a life and death struggle..

I couldn't agree more. You can easily be walking a trail you've walked everyday of your life but one day a seemingly easy negotiation on the trail can turn bloody deadly by a rock sliding out from under your feet down the side of the mountain, one you've stepped on thousands of times. Worse yet, because of your confidence in knowing the trail, the unexpected change wasn't planned or prepared for and you don't have the time or reaction speed to catch yourself. Down the side of the mountain you go.

I will add though, an experienced climber, even when faced with such situations typically have the right instincts. Meaning, in a situation like that as I'm falling, I'm already looking to position myself into a controlled fall to mitigate any damage to oneself. Whether or not most experienced climbers are like that remains to be seen, but for me, my survival instinct allows me to respond rather rational in precarious situations.

Here's an update. Seems the dog may have turned up.

Couple points:

Footprints and a backpack belonging to Mike Herdman, 36, were found Tuesday, but the boulder-strewn and tree-covered terrain exacerbated the effort.

As I was saying before about rocks sliding. The terrain is described as boulder-strewn so the wrong step could easily send you tumbling if a rock were to slip....happens all the time. Doesn't help he was barefooted.

About 50 people searching the area on foot have to be flown in due to how remote the terrain is, authorities said. Herdman and his friend were camping about 15 miles into the forest, an area they were both familiar with.

So remote they flew in a search party.

Lastly, as for the bloodhounds, it should be noted that although they are a great tool they are not an end all. For consideration, the Casey Anthony murder, cadaver dogs were used and although they detected decomposition of flesh in the trunks of Casey's car, the dogs never detected the body that was buried shallow only a few miles from the Anthony's home.

originally posted by: randyvs
Here's an update. Seems the dog may have turned up.

I fear if the dog was spotted than it may not look good for the firefighter. On a positive note, dogs typically hover around their masters, loyal to the end. At least it allows the search party to narrow there search grid. Fingers crossed.

a reply to: Rosinitiate

Fingers crossed.

Yes indeed. A happy ending with a faithful dog would have me cheering. Bigtime!

any of those underground bases around that area!

a reply to: PLAYERONE01

The only thing in that respect that I'm aware of is further
south and in the ocean off L.A. somewhere. And those ancient
tunnels running under L.A.