Firefighter chases dog and both are missing 411?

a reply to: randyvs

Sealed, huh? That's certainly very odd... considering you were told that they didn't find anything that'd be new to you, maybe there's something about Byars's testimony that they don't want the public to know?

a reply to: JackofBlades

All of this post-event secrecy just adds to the questions. I'm curious as to why no one closer to Mike is pushing for more answers from the sheriff's office. If one of my loved ones had died under such odd circumstances, I'd want to see every single line they'd written about it.

Good on you, for bring'n that up Jack. Altho we can't
really be sure Mike's family isn't persuing more information.
It opens my mind to tremendously scarey postulations, that would
involve our deepest fears and ultimate horrors, esoterically
engrained in society. If we were to find out they were not
interested, in a more concise demographic. Because I believe
it can be ruled most absolutely. That a normal family would be
doing so, just as you mentioned it and I did so concur. What
kind of people would just accept this, what barely amounts to an
excuse, of an explanation? I would simply have to ponder if
anyone really even loved this guy? If he were a loved one of
mine? It would drive me to some extreme acts that would
either satisfy. Or bury me not far behind.

Oh, by the way you're invited to tag along if you like.

a reply to: LukeDAP

Here are the three different numbers for the Ventura Co
Sheriffs dept records if anyone else would like to take a crack
at it.

805 654 2385

805 654 2375

805 654 2365

The bottom No. is most pertinent. Sargent of records.

But yes sealed which in itself is another piece of information.
I played hell to bounce her around, but she was tuff. She
pretty much handled my ass.

originally posted by: randyvs
Oh, by the way you're invited to tag along if you like.

hahah If I could afford to pay my way across the big water I'd be there in a heartbeat! As it stands, however, I'll instead be following along in spirit. And, of course, hoping you all make it back okay. I'd also like to advise not partaking of any "mood altering" substances prior to the hike. Just in case anything DOES happen and the ME starts spouting nonsense about drugs again.

And yeah... I'm seriously questioning the decision to seal these files. I'd say that if it got out the files were sealed, more people would be asking questions... however it appears everyone's forgotten about Mike Herdman's disappearance and death. Won't be long until we have another one. Then another. And another.

a reply to: diggindirt
diggin',
I have so appreciated your contributions to this thread...and this site...
...and everytime I here this song, I think of you...though you may find it entirely unrelated...

Just an "old guy" who still has that spark that made the world want so see & hear what he had to say/sing decades ago...
(BTW - if you get the chance to view/hear some of the music that is being made by the two backing female vocalists - I think they are DYNAMICALLY original - Jennie Abrahamson & Linnea Olsson)

a reply to: WanDash
Thank you good sir. That handle came about as a result of my profession (archaeology), my hobby (gardening) and my attempts to expose corruption on the local level a couple of decades ago (fairly successful, not all went to jail but all lost their jobs). As I often tell folks, it's all in knowing where to dig.
When I have a moment I'll check out your suggestions. I'm dealing with some family health issues at present so my time here in cyberspace has been very limited. When the medical industry gets their tentacles into a patient with a "Cadillac" health care policy----they don't want to let go and they don't let you rest. Okay, rant over.

a reply to: randyvs

That's very interesting. I'm not sure our local departments have that sort of power---unless something has fundamentally changed. Perhaps I'll make inquiries of our local department when I have a bit of time. I can't think how such a measure would be justified???
Know any local attorneys you could question over a beer?

The only thing that comes to mind immediately is the fact that this happened in a National Forest---yet the county sheriff's department handled it rather than the Feds. Is that the common way of handling cases in the area? Could the sealing have to do with using something in Federal law rather than state statutes?

Dang, it's quite interesting that they would bring up the toxicology report. I just had occasion to speak with a well-respected forensic pathologist recently who confirmed my belief that remains in the condition reported by the authorities would not yield accurate toxicology results.

Hey Gang - I just wanted to wish the team luck and remind you all to be very careful. From the personal account of the Fire Chief who was snake bit, a page back, it stuck out to me that his team radioed for help, and the EMT was there picking him up by helicopter within 10-15 minutes of the injury.

I just wanted to point out that there may not be cell phone coverage in the area you will be visiting. If you can line up radio coverage, that would be great! Please don't count on your cell phones in case of emergency in an area like this...

Sorry to be the mother hen, I just worry about ya'll and want you to be safe!!!!!

Hugs, and everybody please come home safe and have a beer on me!

a reply to: JackofBlades

Just in case anything DOES happen and the ME starts spouting nonsense about drugs again.

Excellent advise and I agree thoroughly.

Also some excellent advise from Gwyn.

Aned I appreciate the well wishes from everyone.

a reply to: WanDash

Hey Wan, when I I.d. myself to the lady sargent, I said this is
Randy with Above Top Secret .com. And during our conversation
she was very inquisitive about our site. I've been thinking about
that and I'm now thinking, I might give her a another call. And
introduce her to the site and ask her to come aboard. Read my
thread and answer questions.

How about that?

a reply to: randyvs
Don't see how it could hurt...
I don't recall if you mentioned Paulides and his 411 series in your previous conversation with her... (?)
If not, that might be worth mentioning... Though, some people automatically associate "BigFoot" with Paulides, without considering the evidence/argument he has put forward.
Might also ask what laws apply to "when (under what kinds of circumstances)" the records for a "ruled-accidental-death" can be "sealed". --- or, at least, direct you to the ordinance/s or statute/s or whatever/s.
Likewise, though - in directing her to the thread, you might note that this 'mystery' has drawn international intrigue...

This case reminds me a lot of the mysterious disappearance/death/recovery here in PA of Todd Sees back in 2002. An official explanation/statement has never been issued a dozen years later.

"...If the death of Mr. Sees is being investigated as an "unexplained death," and not a homicide, why are the local authorities involved in the investigation refusing to comment on the case"?
disc.yourwebapps.com...

a reply to: UnBreakable


There are many similarities that we've noticed here to
Todds case Break. Right down to the mention of a
rattlesnake. Very odd indeed.

originally posted by: randyvs
a reply to: UnBreakable





There are many similarities that we've noticed here to

Todds case Break. Right down to the mention of a

rattlesnake. Very odd indeed.

The "barefoot" similarities to me are also provides a troubling similarity, especially when one of Todd's boots was found 70 feet up in a tree. Mr. Sees likewise was an avid outdoorsman.

"In addition, it is unclear to us why an experienced outdoorsman, as Mr. Sees apparently was, would abandon his vehicle, shed his outer garments, doff his boots, and walk an estimated two miles toward his home, leaving his vehicle, still in good working condition, on top of the nearby mountain".

a reply to: WanDash

Very good idea to mention the books to her. In fact, might also be worth dropping Paulides a line directly and letting him know you're planning a hike up there to see what you can see. Never know! He might decide to tag along!

originally posted by: randyvs
Hey Wan, when I I.d. myself to the lady sargent, I said this is Randy with Above Top Secret .com. And during our conversation she was very inquisitive about our site. I've been thinking about that and I'm now thinking, I might give her a another call. And introduce her to the site and ask her to come aboard. Read my thread and answer questions.
How about that?

That is, in fact, not a terrible idea. Worst case scenario nothing happens, best case scenario she realises stuff doesn't add up and begins to look into stuff herself. Either way, it'd be good to have the reasons for a naturally occurring, accidental death's records to be closed to the public made known to us.

a reply to: JackofBlades

I'm working on it. Might be a day or two before I get a handle on her again.

Sorry for the grand span since the last contribution...but, here's the next bit.

Page 31

Missmissie173 references an odd incident from January, 1969 where 10 people were killed trying to escape flood waters…
The external reference was not specific to a particular article…but – if you’re up to the challenge – here’s the link.

~~~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~~~
Page 32

diggindirt’s forensic explanation regarding aspects of decay, depredation and decomposition…

A link to an article in The San Gabriel Valley Tribune gave some quotes from the chief deputy medical examiner…that might help in understanding the uncertainty associated with “time of death”.

~~~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~~~
Page 33

GreenMtnBoys – questioning the difficulty of the climb…references the following article, and points to the Comments below said article, regarding statements of posters familiar with the general area.
SVG Tribune article/webpage

Again – GreenMtnBoys contributes a webpage with discussion/s to consider…
SanGabrielMnts… Forum – Discussion of the Herdman mystery beginning June 17, 2014.

In response to information offered by diggindirt YogaGinns suggested the following YouTube link, regarding – The Body Farm.

FistOfFreedom references another forum where question is cast upon the official tale.
Jesses Hunting dot com – discussion

research100 commented the “Jesses Hunting dot com” link, and reposted the SanGabrielMnts forum link.

diggindirt responds to issues of decomposition, etc…and points to an educational article on the same, here.

kathael found an interesting online conversation between Mike Herdman and David Stillman, dated the last day of 2012…here.

~~~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~~~
Page 34

kathael responds to diggindirt’s request for a link where the coroner announced that toxicology tests would be performed…with this.

Tsurugi offered the first screen-shot of, and comments the Anomalous Spire.

~~~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~~~
Page 35
roadgravel
Posts a photo of the helicopter hovering near the spot where Herdman’s body was reportedly found, as well as a link to an SVGTrib une article the Chief Deputy Medical Examiner’s comments & conclusions.

Thanks for your time.

Upon arriving at Page 36, this post, and its relatively unimpressive reception, drew my attention…

dinofinder, (who has been a member for 10+ years, but with this being only the second post in said 10 year membership, attributed to said account)…purports to have been involved in the search…gives a captivating perspective of the ‘campsite location’, and other ‘facts’ worth considering further than the apparent attention and appreciation evident in the following & subsequent conversation/s evince.

-------------------
dinofinder (July 4, 2014 - 12:14 AM)

“…by far, the most rugged terrain I have ever searched…”

…Day & Night time temps (90's & 60's respectively) - Very survivable

…Running water AT campsite

…Pack was found "in camp along with bare footprints leaving camp".

"The camp site was in a steep canyon with sides [too] steep to climb. This only left up and down stream as logical directions of travel…"

"…The rocks were all moss/algae covered and very,very slick…"

"…though the creek was usually…10/15' wide…there were many deep pools…over 6'…"

…Within 10 minutes of jumping in, on first day of involvement…, had fresh bear tracks in the sand.

…Search aided by drones which were limited by the many chopper flights --- Both could not fly at the same time…

…A dive crew searched all pools below the camp site…

"…this is the most logical area to search.."

…Dog stayed within 1/2 square mile - scared - would not allow people…near…

…4-person team of professional animal trappers trying to catch…dog…

.-. -.-( 'professional' opinion follows)-.- .-.

"Our guess…"

1. Dog fighting with bear or lion
.!. !.!(justification… )!.! .!.
- Only sane reason to go shoeless
-------or-------
2. [Herdman] tangled with an animal or…tripped and fell with a fatal blow…
3. News reporting of partial brush coverage suggests an animal…
---------------------------
dinofinder has not returned to this conversation (or any other public ATS-thread/s) since this 2nd post in 10 years…and…the suspense is killing me.

First - "Thank You!" to dinofinder, for this information from the ground.

Next - I would like to challenge the above…to see if it can/will suffice as a solid story.
---------------------------
The 'placement of the campsite' hints at a possible discrepancy with other 'official' &/or 'interested' accounts.

The 'placement' puts the campsite, literally, "on" the creek/riverbed, and at high jeopardy in case of flash flood.
That does not make sense to me.
I am not even an avid hiker, and such a location would have been utterly absurd to me, if ANYONE suggested it.
So - first - we have an 'exceptional' outdoorsman, firefighter, EMT, etc…saying, "It'll be okay - I checked the weather" …and the other 'exceptional' athlete, firefighter, EMT, etc…saying, "Oh - Okay… Whatever you say." ?

The 'placement' is likely further at odds with the path/trail, drawn by the finger of the Deputy Sheriff (in the news conference announcing the body's discovery), that Duke had taken, when exiting 'camp'.

Steep canyon walls on both sides - only direction of travel was up or down the creekway

The Deputy Sheriff also pointed quite a distance downstream, at the location where Herdman was "last seen"…
I do not know if "last seen" meant 'physically witnessed by another human being', or 'logically deduced'…but…in either case, I am presuming to rely on said testimony - that Herdman continued south along the creek path…TO, at least, that point.

- moss/algae-covered rocks - 10-15' wide creek…with 6' deep pools scattered along the way…

Whether the campsite was in the riverbed, or on the rise ENE of it…the distance Herdman must have travelled…looking for (presumably) Duke…was more than a mile.

And that – with many of those steps in moss/algae –covered rocks.

If he left the campsite at ~ 9:30 PM…how long would it have taken to traverse that distance, in those conditions & circumstances, and then/thus - what time would it have been…before he decided to scale the mountain on the south side of said creek?

Did he push…all the way?

The ‘professional trackers’ said that the evidence in his footprint/s found heading south along the creekbed…showed that he was not running – not in a hurry – and, apparently ‘not injured’.
I don’t see the footprints they must be referring to, as ‘the footprints’ at the campsite, that dinofinder has identified (along with the backpack)…
~ Unless, of course, he didn't leave the campsite…in a hurry…to find/retrieve Duke…

- Duke stayed within 1/2 square mile - (scared)
…Within 1/2 square mile…of what?
…the campsite?
…the body?
The body was close to 2 miles from the campsite (whether it was on the rise or in the creekbed)…and over a mile from where Herdman was reportedly "last seen".
Meaning - if the dog was within a half-mile of the campsite - I am forced to question if Duke even knew where Herdman's body was…
And - if he didn't - - - well - - that's another can of worms to consider.
---------------------------
My Opinion
Bear, mountain lion, rabid porcupine or giant condor had nothing to do with the events that led to the death of Herdman.
No such injuries reported on Duke - and no such evidences in the footprints, as interpreted by the 'professional trackers'.

If no 'external' threat was driving him… And…he was not making haste… What else could have 'driven' him that far from camp…through such difficult & treacherous conditions…before he chose an even more difficult & treacherous path, up a steep mountain slope…that would have taken another - - - 'how long'?
And - if that isn't enough - he decides to scale one more rock wall face…

Unless he was on some warrior's quest…I don't see how or why a normally rational person would continue to make those choices.
---------------------------

Corrections to previous(/linked) post:

"… - what time would it have been…before he decided to scale the mountain on the south side of said creek? …"

I was actually looking at GE when writing the description, and, when moving-to and zooming-in on the area of interest, my GE Compass changed the perspective slightly askew, and - the mountain side would/should really be "on the west side of said creek…"…

…
(After "…Duke stayed within 1/2 square mile…")
In the phrase that ended "…another can of worms to consider.", I had intended but neglected to include another obvious question…being:
If the dog was within 1/2 square mile of the body-recovery location…how could this Expert S&R operation not have found the body…sooner…as a result of 'qualified decisions coming from the qualified decision makers'?

If I'm a tracker… And I'm tracking Herdman in and along the creek… And
-- I lose him…
…I had tracks a quarter mile back, at least…and nothing since…

My first suspect…
- "he is either ‘in’ the creek, or, left the creek between the last solid evidence of his track and here…"

ATS Big Pic
(please note that the marker/pin named "Vantage2" is generically...where the body was found)
If scaling the canyon/s on the east and southeast is nigh impossible, under the previously given circumstances…that narrows the probable focus to:
1st - within 100-200' of the bank along the creek for the last quarter mile…and,
2nd - up said mountainside looking for any 'sign'.

The decision to continue a broad-area search that expanded away from this "heart of the devil" kind of tells us how much confidence 'those making the decisions' had in the "professional trackers" … and …perhaps, that - maybe, the professional trackers were actually pretty good.
It, likewise, may have ignored the dog’s location (if the dog was within 1/2 mile of the body).
------------------

Something I have failed to note, thus far, is an appreciation for the two fishermen that helped Byars back to civilization…and who were 'inspired-enough' by Byars' story, that they not only "found their way" but also "made their way" to the campsite…within a day or so…and faded from interest (and thus - existence) since.

What a trek!
Byars must have told one good story…!Or!…the conspicuous nature of their location, nature/s and particular skillset/s might deserve a closer eye than previously given.
------------------
Set out to make correction/s… See you next time.

Page 36 (cont’d)

Missmissie73 gives a Wikipedia link regarding ‘blunt force trauma’.

~~~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~~~
Page 37

JackofBlades discusses the case of “Eloise Lindsay” and what similarities it bears with this case…while agreeing with Tsurugi that – the story seems to suggest that Herdman was ‘fleeing’ something in terror.

~~~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~~~
Page 38

randyvs offers an early account of Byar’s story…as well as this FB link regarding the “Mike Herdman Memorial Ride”. I did note no evidence of Byars on the FB link… (for what it’s worth)
From the article:

…The two fishermen helped Byars get back to the parking lot where he’d left his truck…

Then, that the fishermen had called investigators ‘after hearing about the missing firefighter on the news and indicated that they had found the bag left behind by Byars’.
(If you have considered the terrain and distance they would have to have travelled, to locate the campsite [where Byars purportedly left the bag of supplies] – and my former questions regarding these two fishermen…this aspect of the story smells of THE WORST reporting, or of something even more…fishy)
randyvs also offers a YouTube video regarding the possibility of underground primates.

randyvs responds to megabogie, with another YouTube video about Skin Walkers.

~~~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~~~
Page 39

research100 offers comment and references Page 8 of the SanGabrielMnts forum discussion of this case.

CallmeRaskolnikov draws attention to this article, dated July 9, 2014, about Mike Herdman’s Memorial Service, and highlights the fact that “His death was ruled an accident.”…
Likewise linked, in an article published by the San Gabriel Tribune regarding the funds raised for Mike Herdman’s daughter, CallmeRaskolnikov draws attention to the fact that the authorities were claiming that “death was instantaneous”.

RUFFREADY suggests that this www. history.com video made a connection similar to some in this thread… -- A segment of Brad Meltzer’s “Decoded”…

Ziming offers an excerpt regarding another oddly-similar story at Mt. Shasta.

randyvs offers this and this announcing the toxicology results.

.......................
Guessing that'll be enough for tonight... See ya next time 'round.