Separation of Church and State has gone too far

originally posted by: Quadrivium
I believe this entire thread can be summed up in my small quote beneath this post.
Our Founding Fathers tried to ensure that WE the People would have freedom OF religion not freedom FROM religion.
It's simple.
People with an agenda try and make it difficult (see ACLU and the likes for more details).
Quad

If you don't support my right to freedom from religion, then I won't support your right of freedom of religion.

a reply to: LDragonFire

forget that
freedom OF religion is also freedom FROM religion
many religions do not agree so the freedom to practice your religion necessitates that you also be free from the influences of someone elses religion .....which means that religion can have no place in legislation

you applying your religious views to legislation ensure that others do not have freedom of religion .....now they must follow your religion

ridiculous
im really just starting to wish we can have another civil war no holds barred loser is erased from history

originally posted by: LDragonFire

originally posted by: Quadrivium
I believe this entire thread can be summed up in my small quote beneath this post.
Our Founding Fathers tried to ensure that WE the People would have freedom OF religion not freedom FROM religion.
It's simple.
People with an agenda try and make it difficult (see ACLU and the likes for more details).
Quad

If you don't support my right to freedom from religion, then I won't support your right of freedom of religion.

You do not have a right of freedom from religion.
All we have is freedom OF religion. You are covered by this statement as well.
Freedom of religion also gives you the right to have no religion.
I believe if people want to pray out loud or read their religious text, they should be able to, no matter where they are or who is around.
People have the right to say vulgar things in public, play loud music with vulgar, obscene language in it and do almost anything else they please and no one seems to care.
Yet if someone mentions God, people go into temper tantrums.
Ever stop to REALLY wonder why?

a reply to: Quadrivium

is it because organized religion is a sham?
and when people talk about "god" they are instead talking about their own desires or interpretations of what they want god or gods message to be
and they present this under the guise of guidance from a divine being
is it because people recognize organized religion for what it is? a tool of mass manipulation used by the wealthy and powerful to goad the ignorant apathetic masses to act on their behalf and enforce their ideals

spirituality and organized religion are worlds apart and its hilarious you think essentially brainwashing an individual on a daily basis by reciting chants and performing rituals and ostracizing them if they do not is conductive to a healthy mind or a healthy society

people should not feel pressured by their peers into religion..... and they do most people i have talked to who are part of a religious community always come around to one important point in the reasoning for going to church..... they like the social network it provides.... and if they do not go..... they will in general lose friendships and family (i have seen this play out dozens of times)

a political representative should not have to declare that they are a member of any given religion to be voted into office.... but that is exactly what happens.... and if they are the wrong religion....or not religious enough this becomes a key argument as to why they should not hold office regardless of their policies

so tell me what kind of political spread do you have in your congregation? (what percentage holds the same views and reasoning for those beliefs?)

originally posted by: sirhumperdink
a reply to: Quadrivium

is it because organized religion is a sham?
and when people talk about "god" they are instead talking about their own desires or interpretations of what they want god or gods message to be
and they present this under the guise of guidance from a divine being
is it because people recognize organized religion for what it is? a tool of mass manipulation used by the wealthy and powerful to goad the ignorant apathetic masses to act on their behalf and enforce their ideals

spirituality and organized religion are worlds apart and its hilarious you think essentially brainwashing an individual on a daily basis by reciting chants and performing rituals and ostracizing them if they do not is conductive to a healthy mind or a healthy society

people should not feel pressured by their peers into religion..... and they do most people i have talked to who are part of a religious community always come around to one important point in the reasoning for going to church..... they like the social network it provides.... and if they do not go..... they will in general lose friendships and family (i have seen this play out dozens of times)

a political representative should not have to declare that they are a member of any given religion to be voted into office.... but that is exactly what happens.... and if they are the wrong religion....or not religious enough this becomes a key argument as to why they should not hold office regardless of their policies


so tell me what kind of political spread do you have in your congregation? (what percentage holds the same views and reasoning for those beliefs?)

What a complete and utter load of crap.
Do you always ASSUME so much?
For your information I am not part of "organized religion", I do not have a congregation nor do I attend church.
My beliefs are mine by RIGHT!
If you do not want to hear me or anyone else pray, tough, GET OVER IT!
It does not hurt you in the least.
So why did you feel the need to go "there" with me? You think you have all the answers huh?
Ever wonder were those REALLY come from?

ETA:
Furthermore, do you not realize that what you did in your post above is basically the same thing you get mad at those of religion for doing?
Think about it.
Quad

a reply to: abe froman

Or maybe a non-profit non-organisation?

Yes I believe this separation has gone way to far !

The notion of keep any form of religion away from them is getting crazy.


For 50+ years I have been tolerant of religious or no religion views. I tried to accept and respect other peoples views.I lost a heap of my tolerance this spring.

I was hospitalized for over a month . Was hanging on tooth and nail. I believe in a power greater than us. I had icons of faith and a inspirational painting on my night stand . Clergyman of my faith came to pray and bless me every few days since the possibilities of passing on were not in my favor.

This person who shared my room threw a fit it was a public hospital and he didn't want to be subjected to that crap! Pull the curtain don't look don't listen.

He got nurses or his visitors to put my painting away my icons of faith away . And put my bible in a drawer I couldn't get to . I went to sleep with a icon of faith around my wrist and in my hand woke up it was gone housekeeping found it in the trash can . Having tubes and wires in almost every orifice of my body I couldn't put up much of a fight.

Some nurses would agree it shouldn't be out to be seen others agreed with me and let me have my stuff. If you are on deaths doorstep if you believe in God isn't this when you need them the most? And why would some jerk try to deprive you of it. His freedom from religion was more important than my freedom of religion. Massive pile of bovine bio waste.


Couldn't pulling the privacy curtain be sufficient. This person tried to keep clergyman out of my half of the hospital room. DON'T SHOVE YOUR ANTI GOD CRAP DOWN MY THROAT I already have tubes there any how.

So many talk about religions trampling your rights . Where do you people draw the line? This person trampled my rights coerced nurses to trample my rights. What would happen if this jerk got into public office I can guarantee he wouldn't protect my rights proven that once.

when he left a old native man traditional beliefs shared the room with me. His family came sang songs I listened asked questions when they were done when my clergyman came he listened talked when we were done. Curtain was never used we accepted each other this man I respect. We had different views he didnt cram his down my throat and I didnt do that to him .

ITS CALLED MUTUAL RESPECT !

a reply to: Lostinthedarkness

I am sorry that you were forced to experience so much discomfort.

Mutual respect begins on common ground and your religous symbols being in open view and in close proximity which is how you display and project them for maximum impact and support for your beliefs and ideas is an infraction upon that common ground YOU are required to support and provide 50% of under ALL circumstances unless you ask for permission of those around you to recieve a concession to this general dynamic.

You MUST accept that for the degree and volume that those religous symbols SUPPORT you they have an exact potential to HURT someone else.

This means that you have no right to impose your belief systems or sysmbols there-of within the boundaries of the "common ground" which we all have a duty to support and provide.

You do not have the right to RISK that you might HURT another person by the display and projection of your belief system via religous symbolism.

I just read an article about the Pope meeting with sexual abuse victims,I did not read the piece,just the headline,how do you know that the person in your room wasnt raped repeatedly by a Clergy-person as so many children were?How do you know what impact your religous symbolism may have on another person?Would you like to see a Swastika on the table ten feet away from you if you were in a room with someone who believed in that symbol,what if you were Jewish and had experienced the atrocities bequeathed upon those people?

They call them semi-private rooms for a reason,the public domain is a different place than a private or Semi-private room.
You agreed to be in the Semi-private room so you abbrogated your rights to display your symbolisms,had you paid or had your church paid which makes sense to me for a private room to accomodate your mutually held belief systems then there would be no issues.Looks like a good way for hospitals to make extra dollars off of religous people.

You just dont like that someone can tell you NOT to expose them to your belief systems via symbolism which carries a tangible impact just as any advertisement does.

The very fact that this symbolism GIVES you a conduit to stronger faith by PROXY it also does the opposite to others.,it provides a conduit to diminish their faith.

I personally do not support live Human Sacrifices to ideologys like gods or dietys.

Religous wars are really mass Human Sacrifices,because the Humans WILLINGLY give up their own lives of their own free-wills.
Not taking a blood transfusion causing death is a Human sacrifice,a group subscribes to it of their own free will.

Blood Atonement is Human Sacrifice,a group subscribes to it of their own free-will.

You may add the symbolism of any of these groups and the countless others which support Human Sacrifice to ideological gods and dietys and belief systems to the list that I personally do not want displayed around me.

a reply to: one4all
Huh?
Half the room is his. If the other guy does not like something on his side........well that is what the privacy screen is SUPPOSED to be used for.
All because someone does not like looking at something does not give them the right to touch another's belongings.
It really seems, after reading your post, that the world has gone mad.
Hmmmm.......ever wonder what's REALLY going on?

a reply to: one4all

are you serious?

your post is a joke, right?

were you the guy in the room with lostinthedarkness?

swastikas? lol!

and this little gem;
"The very fact that this symbolism GIVES you a conduit to stronger faith by PROXY it also does the opposite to others.,it provides a conduit to diminish their faith. "

what faith do they have, if they don't believe? wth are you talking about?
i think you people should stay out of other peoples biz. dam busy bodies.

An Ethical state can have no Laws that are based on the super natural.
A theocratic state of any degree can not administer reasonable justice.
A law must only be based on truthful reason, almost by definition.

I am not an atheist, but a pantheist,
I concede that no man can know divine justice, and should not pretend to.

As for the prophets and their prescriptions, I have no regard.

Theistic beliefs have placed humans above nature, this is it's(theism) greatest crime.
This crime against nature will be payed for in spades.

I live in the United States of America. A great country with freedom of and from religion. I do NOT live in a Christian Theocracy, and will fight against that with all my might.

a reply to: tsingtao

I am simply framing a belief system as what it really is, an agreed upon idea not a concrete reality.

Religons are not reality,and they do not carry any weight beyond that which any simple belief would carry,which isnt much beyond the individual or group subscribimg to it.

If you propogate an idea or a belief you are selling something to people that is not real,you are indoctrinating them into a reality which is not grounded.

The only way religon can be validated is when every human alive sunscribes to it.This means they all will try to sell themselves to you eternally,and this creates permanent human dischord and unrest.

When the ability to SELL belief systems is abolished them many religons will disappear through natural evolution.

You cannot use numbers and power and money and force to objectify an idea or a belief and then apply the rules of an object to that idea or belief system.

You can defend an object which is concrete in our reality but you cannot defend an idea the same way and religous people want to be able to do that in fact they NEED to be able to do that.


I dont care how many people you can get to buy into your illusion,if it is not concrete and real it carries no tangible weight or value.

If it carries no tangible weight or value then it cannot be defended as if it were in fact a tangible object.

To kill to support or propogate an artificially objectified idea is a Crime Against Humanity itself .

I believe that all religons are misinformed as to their correct histories,that the leadership groups are informed but are intentionally disconnected from the masses.

Religous leaders know very well that their doctrinal writings all originate from One True Humanitarian History,that they ALL have a common origin ,and that that origin DOES NOT subscribe to any diety of god ,NONE AT ALL.

The god concept and the diety concept was ADDED intentionally to Humanitys One True History.

If you read you bible or any religous doctrine from the major groups you will find the same accurate One True History of Humanity and there will NOT be any references to dietys or gods or anything not based in concrete univerdal natural forms.

Most religous people in general do not have the ability to seive through the contextual menings of their own doctrines and their leaders nurture and use this inability to tend their flocks.

Once you learn how to understand the dynamic structures of language and communication it is easy to decipher these doctrines and to glean from them ALL one cumulative symbiotic history ,ONE PARALELL TRUE HUMAN HISTORY,and it is definitively a History NOT a theological writing .

You could look at it this way,every single human who subscribes to the belief systems of any of the Major religons or their off-shoots is ON THE SAME PAGE,and is telling the exact same story,but they cannot see this quite yet enmasse.

Religous conflict is simply not possible ,the diety and god concepts are simply not possible ,BECAUSE WITHIN EVERY RELIGON RUNS A COMMON THREAD OR VEIN and this is Humanitys One True History which CANNOT be removed from them all,it simply is not possible due to the fractioning and varied evolutions of the original History over time and distance.

What I am teling you is that you can REMOVE the parts of every doctrine that is in existance that were put there or layered over time,there is a concise and accurate methodology with which anyone can do this with a book and a highlighter pen.

You can remove layer by layer the lies and adjustments to each of these stories or doctrines and break them all down to their specific origins or contextual DNA if you will.Even ater hundreds or thousands of changes over time the fabric of this One True History remains within each doctire,and this fabric CANNOT be removed unless you destroy ALL religons emanating from this One True History.

Now you see the problem I hope, the diety or god concepts were ADDED to major doctrines in layers over top of Humanitys One True Hostory and you CANNOT erase this evidence without eraseing the belief system and religon itself.So once you remove these layers that comprise the diety or god concepts then you immediatly disenfranchise the leadership of these groups and you immediatly disenfranchise the diety or god concept.You do not destroy these beliefs but you disenfranchise them from using Humanitys One True History for their own agendas.They must survive or not on their own true merits removed from a History they have no right to hi-jack and manipulate.



The evolution of Humanitys One True History has manifested within its interactions with all religons over time as the ultimate Trojan Horse like a virus.It cannot be removed.It has been carried from progrm to program to program over time hidden within the data.

originally posted by: MrConspiracy

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: iosolomon

Christianity is all about greed. I don't know where you've been, but the Catholic church was the richest entity in the world for the longest time. Not to mention it most certainly benefits the rich. Heck the bible teaches you to respect your place and respect authority. And yes our founding fathers were probably secular. Just because god is mentioned doesn't mean they believed in it. Why else would Thomas Jefferson write about separation of church and state?

Christianity is ALL about greed.. sure, nothing more. Go right ahead and see the negatives - It's all you want to see.

Organized religion is dumb. Sorry you had to hear that. But it's true. It does more harm than good. Just by brainwashing people into fervent belief, it creates bad things since those people go on to make dumb decisions about how to run the country based on their beliefs which they've been brainwashed into having.

And i'm disgusted with greed of religion too though, including Christianity. Yes, other religions exist people. All I ever hear on this forum recently is how bad CHRISTIANITY is when it comes to greed and wealth. Like it's the only religion to be hypocrites.

Certainly. Organized religion is all bad. They all let some asshole in charge of the spiritual mindset of many different people. And when someone's spiritual mindset is at stake, they make irrational and poor decisions based on it. But keep in mind, most people argue against Christianity here because it is the religion we are all most familiar with, and not to mention it is in our faces ALL THE TIME. If you don't like it, fix the religion. Oh wait you can't because men are fallible and men run the religion.

A little bored of all the negatives people see and not all the great things Christians have done over the years... - Deny ignorance? Sure it's corrupt but find me something that isn't. Everything is poisoned by money.

Don't give me that. Religion is supposed to be divinely inspired. It is supposed to be about how to commune with god and worship him. It SHOULDN'T be corrupt. If it really WAS divinely inspired, god would do something about it so that it couldn't become corrupt. Yet here we are rationalizing away way it is ok for an organization that is supposed to determine how you get into heaven is ok to be corrupt and teach you incorrect things.

a reply to: one4all

It sounds like you agreed with my first room mate.

Umm yea ever think there is a thing called a privacy curtain ? Its use is if you dont want to see whats going on or witness the procedure the curtain is pulled for privacy. Oh that to hard to do or using one tramples your rights to stick your nose in some one elses business.

Sometimes you have no choice of the type of room its not a motel (yes i want to reserve a single occupancy ICU room with a king sized hospital bed ) you get whats available .

You agreed to be in the Semi-private room so you abbrogated your rights to display your symbolisms,had you paid or had your church paid which makes sense to me for a private room to accomodate your mutually held belief

I never choose hospitals decide on rooms by need and hospital population. Simply staying in a care facility doesn't remove any religious rights. You never lose your rights unless you go to prison which even there they try to accommodate all beliefs .

Oh I am afraid of flying seeing these aircraft fly over traumatizes me they got to stop. It against the law to torture some one thats what these planes are doing I cant be happy with them Its my rights are being trampled. Hmm this sounds incredible stupid but thats what some of these arguments sound like.

You just dont like that someone can tell you NOT to expose them to your belief systems via symbolism which carries a tangible impact just as any advertisement does.

Again pulling a curtain so you dont see or if its closed you still whine because you know its still there and someone may be getting comfort from it. Are you serious symbols behind a curtain can still torment someone ? I think your group has the problem. And you would deprive everyone of their beliefs if you could. You know what you are no better than us. Why should your lack of religion out weigh our religions.

Religous wars are really mass Human Sacrifices,because the Humans WILLINGLY give up their own lives of their own free-wills.

Some books people rely on for faith state murder is wrong ! To start a war to advance a doctrine is the men in power pushing for it. I really boils down to a cleric, king, sultan, or who ever is greedy or covetous or just wants to control everyone.

just wants to control everyone. sound familiar ?

a reply to: Krazysh0t
The only way it could be "in your face ALL THE TIME" is if you are looking for it.
Seriously, I am a Christian and I don't see IT all the time, as a matter of fact I hardly see IT at all.
Are you watching the religious channels on cable or something?

a reply to: Quadrivium

All you have to do is look at a dollar bill, see the word "god" on it, and see that it is in your face all the time. It is so in your face that most don't even see it, but I guarantee if we took it out of people's faces they would notice that it was there before.

We have Christians trying to use the bible to make homosexuality a sin or prevent homosexuals from marrying making a ridiculous claim that marriage is the sole property of Christianity and they get to determine the rules or something. We have fundamentalists trying to get the teaching of evolution banned in schools or have 7 day creationism taught along side it like it is a legitimate theory. Every so often, there is a case of Christians trying to get prayer in schools. You really don't have to look very hard to see it. Maybe YOU don't see it, because it is acceptable to you, but it is certainly there and at the very least is more prevalent than other religions doing it. When was the last time you saw a Jewish person trying to force circumcision on every male born in the states? Or a pagan trying to have their various solstice holidays pushed to be recognized national holidays? These things don't happen because those religions have enough sense to stay out of the government.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

When was the last time you saw a Jewish person trying to force circumcision on every male born in the states?

If you were born after 1950 ish to not many years ago 95% male children were circumcised the 5 % their parents told Dr. hands of the 4 dermis layer. Even in Indian public health hospitals .

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Or a pagan trying to have their various solstice holidays pushed to be recognized national holidays?

Umm thats kinda what happened in the combing Christmas All saints day ( Halloween ) and Easter Pagans days were rolled in to christian holidays .

a reply to: Lostinthedarkness

Explaining the Drop in Circumcision Rates

The rates started dropping in the 1980s, but picked back up in the 1990s, only to drop again at the start of the 21st century. Those dips and peaks may reflect the fact that in the 1970s, the American Academy of Pediatrics’ (AAP) task force reported that there was no medical evidence that routine circumcision was needed for newborns. It revised this opinion in 1989, citing some potential benefits for the the procedure. In 1999 the Academy once again released a policy statement summing up the potential benefits of the surgery — lower rates of urinary tract infections as well as sexually transmitted diseases such as HIV — but was still reluctant to advocate circumcision, saying that more evidence was needed to justify such a position from a medical perspective. The AAP advised parents instead to make the decision based on their cultural or religious beliefs.

Nothing about Judaism in there, just differing opinions about the health benefits of the procedure fluctuating with the times.