Separation of Church and State has gone too far

originally posted by: Quadrivium
a reply to: Krazysh0t
I actually agree with some of that.
Government should have no place in marriage.
So your biggest problem is with Christians.
Lets look at it from an evolutionary stand point.......
If Christianity dies out something with fill the nitch. It will most likely be Islam.

Then I will complain about that just like Christianity. Islam doesn't get a free pass either. It's just as reprehensible if not more so as a religion.

Hmmmmm.....I wonder how some in that religion treat Gays or people who don't agree with them?
The word God on money offends you? That is what makes this "ALL IN YOUR FACE", sorry I don't buy it.
I will say this though, you will get what you want and it won't be much longer either. Maybe not in our life time but eventually.
I have read the Book and I know how it ends. And that is what all this is REALLY about.

Are you speaking about Revelation? The book that is about the Roman Empire falling? That already happened. I doubt you will see anything in Revelation transpiring... Ever.

originally posted by: MrConspiracy
I think if you read my comments at how disgusted I am with the greed you'll be well aware I know this involves the Vatican. It's disgusting and immoral. But these acts shouldn't overshadow the great things Christianity has done and teaches. Granted, it DOES overshadow these, naturally. But all I'm saying it.. GREED isn't the only thing Catholicism (in your case) has to offer.

The way I see it, the bad FAR outweighs the good. If the religion was JUST about what was in the bible then it would be a different story, but it isn't. The church has been corrupt from the beginning and has been exploiting its worshipers ever since. But this is a discussion for another topic.

Meh, dumb is a bit of a stretch. Like I said before, It's not all bad. But I agree that being run by man automatically makes it vulnerable to corruption. And I didn't "need" to hear it - It's 90% of everything I see on these kinds of topics.

Being run by man exposes it to corruption. If god can't be arsed to kick the corrupt out of the church or punish them so that they don't lead his worshipers astray, then I see that religion as flawed and their god as uncaring. If god loved us as much as Christians says he does, then why let humans destroy the church like they have? Sorry it doesn't make sense to me.

Religion is in our faces? I've seen a complete denial of anything Religious in our faces for the past 20+ years. So maybe we're watching different TVs, reading different literature and hearing different things on the radio.

Like I said, you don't notice it since it is just there. How often do you see an athlete or performer thank god for their accomplishments (though as a competitive athlete, it makes little sense to me to ask for help from god so you can win, why should he bless your team over the other team?). We still have the moral crusaders who try to ban video games, violent movies, explicit music, etc. The abortion and homosexuality issues are still big and are heavily tainted with Christianity. I will say that things like I just mentioned don't really bother me. If people want to delude themselves, it doesn't bother me. Just keep it out of the government.

Give you what? Of course it SHOULDN'T be, that was the whole meaning of my post. It SHOULDN'T be corrupt... but it is. We don't live in a perfect world unfortunately.

I know and I'm saying that because it can be corrupt, it is flawed. It cannot possibly lead you to the truth since you cannot know if what you are being told is correct or not. Even the bible is quite possibly corrupt and wrong (science is proving this to be the case more and more everyday).

All I was trying to get at is - People are SO quick to jump on the "lets hate religion" bandwagon and quickly become ready to take down every aspect of it. It's not ALL bad - It's produced some wonderful, helpful people, organisations and acts of kindness over the years. It's just such a shame these get overshadowed by the FEW in charge that decide to ruin it for everyone by making it seem like all religion offers is greed and child abuse. - That might sound deep, but that's what's happened.

Humans can do without religion. It isn't necessary.

originally posted by: one4all
a reply to: tsingtao

I am simply framing a belief system as what it really is, an agreed upon idea not a concrete reality.

Religons are not reality,and they do not carry any weight beyond that which any simple belief would carry,which isnt much beyond the individual or group subscribimg to it.

If you propogate an idea or a belief you are selling something to people that is not real,you are indoctrinating them into a reality which is not grounded.

The only way religon can be validated is when every human alive sunscribes to it.This means they all will try to sell themselves to you eternally,and this creates permanent human dischord and unrest.

When the ability to SELL belief systems is abolished them many religons will disappear through natural evolution.

You cannot use numbers and power and money and force to objectify an idea or a belief and then apply the rules of an object to that idea or belief system.

You can defend an object which is concrete in our reality but you cannot defend an idea the same way and religous people want to be able to do that in fact they NEED to be able to do that.


I dont care how many people you can get to buy into your illusion,if it is not concrete and real it carries no tangible weight or value.

If it carries no tangible weight or value then it cannot be defended as if it were in fact a tangible object.

To kill to support or propogate an artificially objectified idea is a Crime Against Humanity itself .

I believe that all religons are misinformed as to their correct histories,that the leadership groups are informed but are intentionally disconnected from the masses.

Religous leaders know very well that their doctrinal writings all originate from One True Humanitarian History,that they ALL have a common origin ,and that that origin DOES NOT subscribe to any diety of god ,NONE AT ALL.

The god concept and the diety concept was ADDED intentionally to Humanitys One True History.

If you read you bible or any religous doctrine from the major groups you will find the same accurate One True History of Humanity and there will NOT be any references to dietys or gods or anything not based in concrete univerdal natural forms.

Most religous people in general do not have the ability to seive through the contextual menings of their own doctrines and their leaders nurture and use this inability to tend their flocks.

Once you learn how to understand the dynamic structures of language and communication it is easy to decipher these doctrines and to glean from them ALL one cumulative symbiotic history ,ONE PARALELL TRUE HUMAN HISTORY,and it is definitively a History NOT a theological writing .

You could look at it this way,every single human who subscribes to the belief systems of any of the Major religons or their off-shoots is ON THE SAME PAGE,and is telling the exact same story,but they cannot see this quite yet enmasse.

Religous conflict is simply not possible ,the diety and god concepts are simply not possible ,BECAUSE WITHIN EVERY RELIGON RUNS A COMMON THREAD OR VEIN and this is Humanitys One True History which CANNOT be removed from them all,it simply is not possible due to the fractioning and varied evolutions of the original History over time and distance.

What I am teling you is that you can REMOVE the parts of every doctrine that is in existance that were put there or layered over time,there is a concise and accurate methodology with which anyone can do this with a book and a highlighter pen.

You can remove layer by layer the lies and adjustments to each of these stories or doctrines and break them all down to their specific origins or contextual DNA if you will.Even ater hundreds or thousands of changes over time the fabric of this One True History remains within each doctire,and this fabric CANNOT be removed unless you destroy ALL religons emanating from this One True History.

Now you see the problem I hope, the diety or god concepts were ADDED to major doctrines in layers over top of Humanitys One True Hostory and you CANNOT erase this evidence without eraseing the belief system and religon itself.So once you remove these layers that comprise the diety or god concepts then you immediatly disenfranchise the leadership of these groups and you immediatly disenfranchise the diety or god concept.You do not destroy these beliefs but you disenfranchise them from using Humanitys One True History for their own agendas.They must survive or not on their own true merits removed from a History they have no right to hi-jack and manipulate.



The evolution of Humanitys One True History has manifested within its interactions with all religons over time as the ultimate Trojan Horse like a virus.It cannot be removed.It has been carried from progrm to program to program over time hidden within the data.

huh? lol!

any link to this "humanity's one true history" so that i might have some idea of what you are talking about?

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Are you speaking about Revelation? The book that is about the Roman Empire falling? That already happened. I doubt you will see anything in Revelation transpiring... Ever.

Lol, look around brother. It already is!

a reply to: Quadrivium

Nope, don't see any of that nonsense happening.

4 big myths of Book of Revelation

a reply to: tsingtao

You are conneted to the link right now.

The purest source of data available is the data we recieve from other people,the validation process can be one done by us as individuals or it can be a process done by others if we give up our own free-will and powers of deduction.

We do NOT have to suceed to allowing others definitions of proof and truth define our individual realitys,this would only be a wise decision of society and the influences which would these perspectives and definitions is one which itself is true and emocratic and 100% accurates as to the voices being incorporated into it.

I am saying that the fiscally catalysed systems we have in place which we all rely on to produce the Status Quo which is the cumulatively accepted truthfully subscribed to reality are defunct,corrup,manipulated and historilly machined and nurtured to misrepresent the masses .

i am saying that with out 100% true real-time democratic GLOBAL vote to re-set and purify this Status Quo or perception your current definitions of "proof" and "validation" are not acceptable to me.

Your chosen process disenfranchises individuals who are one and are giving you their truths with the likelyhood of one person misguiding you in favor of a status Quo which might be tainted by any of millions of people who participate in the process possibly lieing to you to support their own needs.

It is this Status Quo perspective which is full of Academics,Professionals,Leaders in all areas,anyone who can be controlled fiscally who have been intentionally misled right throught their educations becoming a part of the overall problem,and this is where you expect to find "proof" or "links"??? Links to what? The artificially manufactured Status Quo which you and I and everyone else very well knows is as riddled with holes as Swiss Cheeze.

Until we have a Global interest supported 100% by Humanity and projected Globally which can wash away the lies which have been intentionally woven into the Status Quo I am afraid tht your validation sources which include current Academia,Professional and Leaders in all Areas are no longer acceptable.

One Mans or one Womans WORD is now MORE valid than the input of an artificially structured and manipulative Status Quo designed to undermine the Peoples wishes as opposed to support and evolve them.

If you are interested in learning from many of these pure truths given to us during a time when the Status Quo had much much less control and impacts and was catalysed and led by influences which themselves were trying to evolve faster than the masses.Then ask some questions and together we will explain what you need explained.

I will give you a clear and simple example,Archeology can lie to you,but external Geography cannot.Archeology is manufactured and created 100% by the Status Quo and is subject to its parameters and dynamics or on simpler terms LIES AND DECEPTIONS ,external Geography is a Natural Truth which cannot be altered or mis-represented .

Internal geography which is again subject to the staining of the Status Quo as projected via the education system which is fiscally controlled and managed and full of overt lies .

This means that we CANNOT rely of Professional Geologists Internal Geological data because they CAN and DO lie and misrepresent this data and force it to fit the Status Quo perspective they have been trained or forced to follow.

Once we remove any dynamic causality related to fiscal or influence gereration then we can trust the data.This leaves us very few current sources,and it encourages us to refer to historic data which the Status Quo created and guided only as per the technology and information known to them at that time,we can easily outsmart them using better technology and our present data-base as manipulated as it has been during its evolution.


Humanitys One true History is written and recorded within every single facet of our lives,every conspiracy Theory is connected to it,every issue we ponder is connected to this One True History.

This One True History of Humanity brings together ALL religous doctrines without a diety or god concept into one single cumulative reality,the most powerfull reality this Cycle of Humanity has ever experienced.

This bringing together of Humanity has been a natural evolution which would not be denied,Nature always finds a way to create the impacts she wants.

Nature always finds the Path of least resistance,and this means TRUTHS trump lies every time,simply because it takes more energy and resources to create maintain and preserve and grow a lie,and it takes no energy to tell the truth and teling it creates an over-unity dynamic in which more truthfull influences thrive and evolve at an exponential rate .

Truth spreads faster and further than lies do,every time,and no energy is expended in growing truth energy is actually created.

Why do you think everyone says and does simply follow the money to the Humanitarian Terrorists who have been raping the Planet and manipulating humanity enmasse?

Because it takes more energy to propogte lies than it does to propogate truths, this means they leave a huge WAKE in their paths,one that is so illuminated that it cannot ever be hidden or erased,it is a DYNAMIC wake they are leaving in their paths and that they have always left in their paths.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: Quadrivium


Nope, don't see any of that nonsense happening.

4 big myths of Book of Revelation

Guess you got me on that one. We all know that the CNN Belief Blog is the leading authority on Bible Prophecy.
What was I thinking?

a reply to: Quadrivium

It's better than believing in a book written centuries ago by a pissed off guy in exile.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: Quadrivium

It's better than believing in a book written centuries ago by a pissed off guy in exile.

How so?

a reply to: Quadrivium

Well I don't know about you, but I don't read a book by Stephen King then assume that it is the gospel truth. Revelation reads like an old time end of the world science fiction novel. At least my source gives a rational explanation to what he was writing about instead of just trying to shoehorn whatever interpretation you think will fit to make the passages line up to current events (hint: depending on how broadly you interpret, you can pretty much make it say anything)

a reply to: iosolomon

You clearly have no idea what you are talking about.

a reply to: Krazysh0t
Hmmm.....
I will not waste your time, I know you are not interested. However, before letting it go, might I suggest you at least look into it.

a reply to: Quadrivium

I've read it many times. It's pretty silly to me.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

I'm not going to quote every bit of what you said to reply, it's time consuming.

I'll sum up as effectively as possible.

You ask how something corrupt can lead you to the truth. But yet you ask that religion stays our of government. The hypocrisy is quite disturbing. Also, you look to Science for the truth, are you telling me there is no corruption in Science? Like I originally said, everything is corrupt - so don't blame us when we're trying to make the best of a bad job.

You also question God's intentions because Religion has become a corrupt mess. This holds as much merit as disproving God because a Tsunami hit. I'm bored of hearing the old "If God exists why would _______ happen" This world isn't perfect, it's a natural mess and we're at it's mercy... I can't see how Religion becoming corrupt means God doesn't exist. It's ran by man... What on EARTH did everyone expect? We were given free will, and it's been poorly utilized.

"Humans can do without religion" You tell me, in all honesty, what people would do if those in charge told everyone God didn't exist. The world would be in turmoil and everyone would do what they wanted regardless of any consequences. Religion has taught GOOD morals and kept people in check. And before you go on, the keeping "in check" has gotten out of hand in the past and once again I'd like to reiterate the fact that I KNOW religion has it's fair share of faults.

Religion or "faith" has contributed a lot to society and it's ridiculous to suggest otherwise.

originally posted by: Quadrivium

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: Quadrivium


Nope, don't see any of that nonsense happening.

4 big myths of Book of Revelation

Guess you got me on that one. We all know that the CNN Belief Blog is the leading authority on Bible Prophecy.
What was I thinking?

No . . . the blog isn't. However, that is not where the information comes from. The "myths" are related through the work of Elaine Pagels, a biblical scholar who runs the Theology dept. at Princeton. (BTW - she is a Christian . . .)

Elaine Pagels, née Hiesey (born Palo Alto, California, February 13, 1943), is the Harrington Spear Paine Professor of Religion at Princeton University. The recipient of a MacArthur Fellowship, she is best known for her studies and writing on the Gnostic Gospels. Her popular books include The Gnostic Gospels (1979), Adam, Eve, and the Serpent (1988), The Origin of Satan (1995), Beyond Belief: The Secret Gospel of Thomas (2003), Reading Judas: The Gospel of Judas and the Shaping of Christianity (2007), and Revelations: Visions, Prophecy, and Politics in the Book of Revelation (2012).[1]

And if we are "qualifying" sources . . . I believe Pagels would trump you, not only, on knowledge of the bible, but also on those who wrote it, the times they lived in, and the references they make.

a reply to: Quadrivium

A very sincere post. And a lot of truth was spoken. If only it was the accepted belief amongst those who HATE "Religion" because of what the men running it have made it to be. It's like they blame God for man's mistakes because they do it under the veil of God and faith. What they do give our faith a bad name but it shouldn't be used to disprove - That's bogus.

originally posted by: MrConspiracy
a reply to: Krazysh0t

I'm not going to quote every bit of what you said to reply, it's time consuming.

I'll sum up as effectively as possible.

You ask how something corrupt can lead you to the truth. But yet you ask that religion stays our of government. The hypocrisy is quite disturbing. Also, you look to Science for the truth, are you telling me there is no corruption in Science? Like I originally said, everything is corrupt - so don't blame us when we're trying to make the best of a bad job.

I can recognize corrupt science rather easily. That is why I don't buy into the whole climate change mess. The thing about science is that since it is peer reviewed, it is rather hard to perpetrate a hoax for a good length of time. Not that it doesn't happen, but then again I don't jump onto believing fringe science because a single experiment was carried out and hasn't been repeated or peer reviewed.

You also question God's intentions because Religion has become a corrupt mess. This holds as much merit as disproving God because a Tsunami hit. I'm bored of hearing the old "If God exists why would _______ happen" This world isn't perfect, it's a natural mess and we're at it's mercy... I can't see how Religion becoming corrupt means God doesn't exist. It's ran by man... What on EARTH did everyone expect? We were given free will, and it's been poorly utilized.

I expect that if there is a book saying "This is the way to the truth," that if it wants to be taken seriously, it tells the truth. It is such a cop out that religion can just say, "well corruption is everywhere." But in reality, it destroy's religion's credibility. If it can be shown that the priests and higher ups are corrupt since the beginning of the church, why should I take what the religion says seriously? Why should I believe what they say? I mean if you want to be happy being lied to about eternal salvation, that's fine with me, but I'd rather arrive at the truth without being told what to believe by corruptible men.

"Humans can do without religion" You tell me, in all honesty, what people would do if those in charge told everyone God didn't exist. The world would be in turmoil and everyone would do what they wanted regardless of any consequences. Religion has taught GOOD morals and kept people in check. And before you go on, the keeping "in check" has gotten out of hand in the past and once again I'd like to reiterate the fact that I KNOW religion has it's fair share of faults.

HUGE fallacy here. Morals didn't come about with religion and they certainly weren't taught by religion. Look up the Code of Hammurabi. You have no idea what society would be like without religion, because you haven't seen it.

Everyone is already doing what they want and that is a good thing. Religion shouldn't be telling people what they should and shouldn't be doing personally. I agree with the golden rule, but every other "sin" in the bible is useless and dumb. Substance abuse, sex, prostitution, gambling, and all the other vices that religion likes to demonize has no baring on morality. They are just actions that people like to do, don't harm anyone but possibly themselves, and make people happy.

Also the bible contains some pretty questionable morals as well. Slavery, misogyny, stoning your children, hating homosexuals, holy wars. So don't pretend like the bible is some bastion of morality. I also find it pretty funny that whenever I point these things out, the go to answer is always, "well it was a different time." How can you just decide what is and isn't morally just in the bible? Isn't that choosing your own morality and not letting the bible or religion determine your morality?

The only good thing from the bible is the Golden Rule. Though we don't need a collection of books to tell us this. It is plain common sense.

Religion or "faith" has contributed a lot to society and it's ridiculous to suggest otherwise.

Never said it didn't. But that "a lot" happens to contain MANY negatives spread throughout history.

originally posted by: th3dudeabides
You clearly have no idea what you are talking about.

Instead of posting a one-liner, why don't you actually contribute something to the thread? Although this thread has now reached 9 pages, and I wouldn't expect anyone to sit through all the comments, in another post, I elaborated that the atheists in this country would demand that the phrase "under God" in the Gettysburg Address never be repeated by a government official; ie, president Obama's re-enactment, and that, buddy, is taking separation of church and state too far.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Do you not get it? Religion is ran by man. MAN IS CORRUPT. So your talk of priests being corrupt, therefore the religion loses it's moral value or credibility is ridiculous. Don't judge the faith based on the actions of those who run it. I don't look to the Pope or the priests for my answers - My faith runs a lot deeper than that. So no, a priest being corrupt doesn't make the faith any less credible. It just ruins it's public image.

You also just gave the "OK" to prostitution and substance abuse because it makes people happy. Well fat load of good it does for people. Religion doesn't STOP them from doing it but for you to say they should be allowed to do it because it makes people happy is hilarious. Law anyone? These things aren't made illegal by Religion.

Also, regarding the Bible's moral teachings. I'm with you all the way - It has some pretty questionable activities. But to think that everyone who has faith follows their holy book to the word is ridiculous. It WAS written at a different time for illiterate people - So naturally, teachings will change. Granted, you don't like that answer... But regardless, it's the truth. Also, remember who wrote the Bible. Man? Yes. It's been twisted, pulled apart and translated so much that it should only be really used as a guide and as a symbol. If you follow it word by word, you're silly.

Fed up of how difficult it is to try make people see that blaming the faith for the actions of man is ridiculous. It's almost impossible, you just don't see it do you? You can't discredit faith based on how some people interpret it.

Religion, like everything else, be it Science or the Government, is corrupt. There's nothing that can be done. But don't sit and bash religion with such hypocrisy when you're not forced to be a part of it or practice it. It's done a lot of harm in it's time but so have the government. So has science. There's nothing you or I can do about that.

a reply to: solomons pathI know her work. She is a very intelligent lady.
Does that make her the leading authority on Bible Prophecy. .......ummmm, not so much.