An End to " It Takes Faith to be an Athiest too!"

originally posted by: sheepslayer247
Sounds to me like some folks that call themselves atheists are actually agnostic. And yes, it does take faith or "belief" to say absolutely that God does not exist.

No, some gnostic atheists try to suggest they are just atheists is the problem

An atheist has no belief in a deity..doesn't mean they flat out reject the notion based on nothing or pretending to have supernatural knowledge...just a general lack of belief. Sort of like a lack of belief in purple aliens in some distant planet. There may indeed be some, but due to no information about them or any evidence of their existence, there is no reason to believe.
That is an atheist..or rather, and agnostic atheist

A gnostic atheist knows magically that there are no deities...that is a belief, a religion, etc. having a knowing is gnostic, not knowing is agnostic. then theist is deity belief, and atheist is deity disbelief...so you have to be a something atheist or theist.


agnostic atheist: don't know...so I won't believe until evidence presented.
gnostic atheist: I know for really realz there are no gods, cause I checked under every stone and did magic and etc...
agnostic theist: Don't know,,,but I believe there is a god(s)..accept on faith kinda thing
gnostic theist: The Flying Spagetti Monster is the one true god because I have supernatural truth and its written right here!

the term "agnostic" can be applied either way...most people who claim to believe in god and maybe even attend church occasionally are agnostic theists. they speculate, they read about other religions, etc...they are seeking the deity on their own accord with what feels right to them. These people I can deal with...
Gnostics (not to be confused with the strange Gnosticism religion, but the actual meaning of the adjective) annoy everyone equally.

a reply to: AfterInfinity



OK, well if that's what you or others believe.....I'll respect that.

a reply to: SaturnFX

I'll ask you the question also because it's one that hasn't been answered yet..

If Jesus was to appear tomorrow, undeniable proof that it's him would you suddenly convert to Christianity (If you are an atheist of course) and with that do you think that by converting you have upheld the faith of Christianity based off simply observing Jesus in person and believing based off physical evidence taking into consideration that you never believed once before in your life and the Bible was nothing but bs prior to Jesus appearing?

Would Jesus himself Justify your sudden conversion? Does the Bible justify this also or doesn't it?

originally posted by: DarknStormy
a reply to: SaturnFX

I'll ask you the question also because it's one that hasn't been answered yet..

If Jesus was to appear tomorrow, undeniable proof that it's him would you suddenly convert to Christianity (If you are an atheist of course) and with that do you think that by converting you have upheld the faith of Christianity based off simply observing Jesus in person and believing based off physical evidence taking into consideration that you never believed once before in your life and the Bible was nothing but bs prior to Jesus appearing?

Would Jesus himself Justify your sudden conversion? Does the Bible justify this also or doesn't it?

Silly, silly loaded questions.

If a purple monkey with the ability to fly could prove to you 100% that he is the one true god, would you suddenly convert to monkey-ism?

I mean really....

a reply to: captaintyinknots

So your answer is Sarcasm? Wrong answer and a narrow minded one at that.

originally posted by: sheepslayer247
a reply to: AfterInfinity

OK, well if that's what you or others believe.....I'll respect that.

That's not what I asked. What would your initial response be to hearing, "Oh yes, I worship giant purple unicorns orbiting Saturn! They send me such wonderful dreams, and did you know they're responsible for the beautiful colors in the electromagnetic spectrum? They built it themselves!"

Honestly, what would your first thought be?

originally posted by: DarknStormy
Would Jesus himself Justify your sudden conversion? Does the Bible justify this also or doesn't it?

Okay ... you reworded it in a way that I can wrap my head around it.
That's a good question.

And I think that I answered it. There are people in scripture that didn't believe until they saw Jesus perform miracles. They didn't have faith in just His words or they didn't have faith in stories about Him, they had faith only after they saw Him raise people from the dead or only after they saw him do other miracles. These people were just as 'saved' as those who believed Jesus words without having miracle backups.

Did I understand what you were getting at and address it or did I miss the direction you were going in??

a reply to: AfterInfinity

My first response or thoughts would be that this person believes in some crazy stuff.

I think I know where you may going with this, but I will wait and see.

originally posted by: DarknStormy
a reply to: SaturnFX

I'll ask you the question also because it's one that hasn't been answered yet..

If Jesus was to appear tomorrow, undeniable proof that it's him would you suddenly convert to Christianity (If you are an atheist of course) and with that do you think that by converting you have upheld the faith of Christianity based off simply observing Jesus in person and believing based off physical evidence taking into consideration that you never believed once before in your life and the Bible was nothing but bs prior to Jesus appearing?

Would Jesus himself Justify your sudden conversion? Does the Bible justify this also or doesn't it?

If Jesus appeared, and for arguments sake, proved he was indeed him, to include prove he isn't just some advanced alien or dimensional traveler / time traveler, etc..but satisfied understanding that he is the actual avatar of a singular creator where he is the ultimate bridge to divinity...
I wouldn't "convert" to Christianity. no. I would accept it instead as being the reality in the same way that I would accept gravity or anything else proven
Do I think I then I am I guess what..worthy of the religion?
Well, according to my understandings of that guy, then sure.
Now, if John or others were calling the shots..I don't reckon I ever met anyone worthy, but Christ guy seemed to not be about all that structured crap. The whole thief right beside him on the cross was meant to teach the dumbass Christians something which they totally refused to learn.

So yeah, the bible justifies.
Now
Same question back to you, but its Muhammed and not Jesus.
I may have not believed simply based on scientific understandings, but you chose a completely different person to worship and flew in the face of his messages.
I have a 50/50 chance, you have a what, 1 in a 100 chance of getting it right?
and I can change as evidence becomes more available...I have no strong beliefs, just a simple acceptance that I don't know and guessing and pretending to believe would be more insulting than just being honest with myself.

originally posted by: DarknStormy
a reply to: captaintyinknots

So your answer is Sarcasm? Wrong answer and a narrow minded one at that.

Wrong answer? So only the answer to your loaded question that you approve is the right answer?

Yup, Im the one who is narrow minded.

originally posted by: FlyersFan

originally posted by: DarknStormy
Would Jesus himself Justify your sudden conversion? Does the Bible justify this also or doesn't it?

Okay ... you reworded it in a way that I can wrap my head around it.

That's a good question.

And I think that I answered it. There are people in scripture that didn't believe until they saw Jesus perform miracles. They didn't have faith in just His words or they didn't have faith in stories about Him, they had faith only after they saw Him raise people from the dead or only after they saw him do other miracles. These people were just as 'saved' as those who believed Jesus words without having miracle backups.

Did I understand what you were getting at and address it or did I miss the direction you were going in??

Hmm...but at the point they see him doing miracles, doesn't that kill the "faith" part of it? Faith is not built on observations. So Lucifer was evil for demanding that Jesus prove he's the son of God, but peasants who witness his miracles are perfectly legit? If I see some dude successfully revive a dead body, that's not faith I'm feeling there. I saw a supernatural phenomenon happen right in front of my eyes. The impossible made possible, the world turned upside down. Everything I thought I knew, gone in an instant. Particularly if I continue to see and hear about other strange deeds and impossible feats. That's a display, a demonstration, and it is not meant to instill faith. It is meant to cement certainty. A strange contradiction.

a reply to: SaturnFX

You are correct, but I tend to keep it simple.

Theists believe in a "god".

Atheists believe there is no "god"

Agnostics don't believe anything, but are open to the possibilities.

But that's how I look at things.

a reply to: FlyersFan

I'm far from a specialist ... but doesn't this well-known one cover it?

16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. (John 3:16)

a reply to: FlyersFan

Back in the day, it would of been easy if you could observe his miracles and wonders but we can't today. So if he was to turn up tomorrow leaving the knowledge in the New Testament and people not living by that knowledge (Which they are meant to) yet converting because they can physically observe him and for that reason only, would that be enough?

It may seem a silly question to some but if this guy is meant to return, then would converting overnight knowing you had your life to live by his teachings be enough? Or wouldn't it be justified because of your ignorance prior to his return?

BTW, your answer is good..

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: FlyersFan

I'm far from a specialist ... but doesn't this well-known one cover it?

16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. (John 3:16)

There is more to believing in Jesus than simply acknowledging that he was here and died for us.. The idea is that if he was willing to die for you, you in return should give up your life and live by his teachings.

originally posted by: AfterInfinity
Hmm...but at the point they see him doing miracles, doesn't that kill the "faith" part of it? Faith is not built on observations.

This is disingenuous.
Why do you have faith (or any other Christian) that jesus rose from the dead on the 3rd day?
Is it because one guy said so? no..its because hundreds of accounts (supposedly) spoke of it, of many, many observers linking it...so, your faith is built on (what was qualified by the church) a fact...Faith is most certainly built on observations.
Problem is, at this point, people are questioning the observers existence, and a host of other things...suddenly we want a better look at the evidence that has been ultimately locked away...so faith is being called into question because the evidence itself may not be solid.

Why don't you believe that say, Beyoncé is a deity? What if I said she can do miracles but chooses not to and you simply have to have faith? Would you believe me?
I would hope not...but you may if you want to.

Faith is a strange creature that is often confused with the term "hope". one can hope their understanding is correct, but that hope is only as strong as the foundation it sits on..and that foundation is evidence.
I hope (have faith) that mom loves me...and I think that is a well grounded faith..because everything she has done through the years gives tremendous evidence of this being true.
I can have faith that the lotto ticket I picked will win...and that is just sheer hope against all odds.

No...a faithful person can gladly condition the amount of faith based on evidence presented...because hope and faith are interchangeable words...and hoping for something with significant evidence is a good thing.

So Lucifer was evil for demanding that Jesus prove he's the son of God,

Lucifer was/is not evil from my understanding in the same way a hurdle is not evil to a runner..its a obstacle that strengthens.

A strange contradiction.

Welcome to religion

originally posted by: sheepslayer247
a reply to: SaturnFX

You are correct, but I tend to keep it simple.

Theists believe in a "god".

Atheists believe there is no "god"

Agnostics don't believe anything, but are open to the possibilities.

But that's how I look at things.

I think the world has become simplified enough. black, white, or gray...but its more than that.
If a person decides to put enough thought into being something, they should take the extra step and know how to classify more specifically.
atheists are wide and varied overall in their structure of understanding...from jerkbags who demand they know for certain that there are no deities, to downright spiritualists that feel there is some structure, but have no actual evidence to support the claim outside of personal feeling, but cannot honestly suggest they have some sort of universal truth verses just a feeling and hope.
Problem is, to the moron mainstream, atheism is popularly seen as the former...and an agnostic seems like just someone who hasn't put much thought into the subject itself and is simply deciding on a religion...

originally posted by: captaintyinknots

originally posted by: DarknStormy
a reply to: captaintyinknots

So your answer is Sarcasm? Wrong answer and a narrow minded one at that.

Wrong answer? So only the answer to your loaded question that you approve is the right answer?

Yup, Im the one who is narrow minded.

A purple monkey flying and it's religion called monkey-ism isn't answering the question.. I'm speaking about Jesus and btw, I believe he was a man who was persecuted because of ignorance and corruption, not some flying human being who had mystifying powers like superman.

a reply to: SaturnFX

Like I said, that is just how I see things when it comes to religion. But you do make some very good points.

I would fall in to your definition of an agnostic. I read and research on religion from time to time, but I haven't put too much thought in to it because I don't feel the need. There is not a void in my life that I feel needs to be filled and I am content being open to possibilities.

originally posted by: DarknStormy

originally posted by: captaintyinknots

originally posted by: DarknStormy
a reply to: captaintyinknots

So your answer is Sarcasm? Wrong answer and a narrow minded one at that.

Wrong answer? So only the answer to your loaded question that you approve is the right answer?

Yup, Im the one who is narrow minded.

A purple monkey flying and it's religion called monkey-ism isn't answering the question.. I'm speaking about Jesus and btw, I believe he was a man who was persecuted because of ignorance and corruption, not some flying human being who had mystifying powers like superman.

You obviously missed my point. You can replace purple monkey with ANY deity. If they present themself to you, will you convert?

No, wait, its only about YOUR god...i forgot....to closed minded and all.....