An End to " It Takes Faith to be an Athiest too!"

a reply to: ArtemisE

It really is very simple to set someone strait that says atheism requires faith.

Atheism is "lack of BELIEF" in deities.

Faith is "Belief without evidence".

Those two things are not compatible. To say an atheists stance on deities requires faith would be an oxymoron or more like a paradox.

If they need further explanation just tell them you don't believe fairies have taken up residence on Saturns moons either. That is the same lack of belief in deities. Call me an Atheist or A-fairiest that just means I do not believe in either gods or fairies. No faith required for that stance.

Could I be wrong........Maybe....who knows. If someone does know for certain they certainly don't live on earth.

a reply to: benrl

Its all subjective, and you need to guard against the confirmation Bias.

I will give you an example on how some atheists confirmation bias where what they think they know, becomes faith. They might not have Chakras all quantified yet for Science but that do not mean they are not on the verge of reaching a greater understanding of intent->manifestation effecting the bodies self healing/placebo effect with chi/light energy.



To make it clear I am not a follower of a specific man made religion but a tester of each view.

originally posted by: captaintyinknots
No, wait, its only about YOUR god...i forgot....to closed minded and all.....

No, I see God as the creator of Our Universe, Our Galaxy, Our Solar System, Our Sun, Our Planet, Our Moon, Our Science, Our Wildlife, Our Everything and that includes you amongst that also regardless of what you believe and how you apply yourself in this life which was also given to us from something much more greater than me and you. God in all religions is the creator of all things, not just the things that are observed by the naked eye. Now if you call it something else or don't believe that's truth, then I don't care.

originally posted by: AfterInfinity
Hmm...but at the point they see him doing miracles, doesn't that kill the "faith" part of it?

.
You can have faith that someone is who they say they are based on what you have learned about them, right? I get what you are saying, but I think that believe/faith ... they both work. (Unless God is some kind of legalistic sadistic oinker ... and then who would want to worship someone like that anyways??? )

originally posted by: DarknStormy

if you call it something else or don't believe that's truth, then I don't care.

exactly my point.

originally posted by: DarknStormy

There is more to believing in Jesus than simply acknowledging that he was here and died for us.. The idea is that if he was willing to die for you, you in return should give up your life and live by his teachings.

"And we indeed are suffering justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong." 42 And he was saying, "Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!" 43 And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."

You are literally actively misrepresenting the last hours of Christ. Have you even read the bible?
Why do Christians refuse to teach Christs teachings?

The thief asked to be remembered, that's all that was enough..he knew he was a screwup, probably deserving the fate handed to him, but J was all, no. to hell with that, these jerks are my peeps!
Did the thief ask forgivness? no..he didn't. he knew what he did, he had self regret, but he didn't ask Jesus for forgivness.
thing is
he didn't need to if you spent even a bit of time listening to Christ.
He gave it...accept it or not, you already have it..its there.

YOU are now suggesting that because you say so, its not that easy..that his sacrifice and intent are not his to give, but yours to loan out to people whom have followed your religion (a religion that jesus is not a fan of if we know anything about his views on religion). you cannot box up or contain salvation..you cannot take people already rescued from the drowning pools and toss them back in until they bow to your desires verses his salvation
Who just in the living hell do you think you are to deny christs salvation? Are you a god?
As jesus said to Peter (and very fitting here): "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns"

You know your religion..thats cute
now drop it and learn the messages of Christ...if it is true, you are going to have some serious explaining to do by trying to block his sacrifice for your own ego.

-still an agnostic atheist...just..I quite like the Jesus chap..he pisses self righteous Christians off.

originally posted by: SaturnFX
The thief asked to be remembered, that's all that was enough..

That's why I brought him up as a perfect example to answer the question put forward .... if Jesus returns and people convert on the spot and say 'I believe, remember me or forgive me' ... that is enough. We've already seen it's enough.

originally posted by: DarknStormy
a reply to: ArtemisE

If Jesus turned up tomorrow and you decided that you would convert because of it, what makes you think you would get away with it?

2nd, the Big Bang theory is, a theory.

What is there to get away with? Nobody believed in him the first time around except a small group of followers. And according to scripture all you have to do to get in to heaven is accept him. This includes death bed conversions. Besides all that, wasn't his whole message love and forgiveness? Of not then what's the whole point of it all?

2nd. Gravity too is a theory but I don't see anyone disputing that. There are any number of scientific principles that are just "theories" that apply to your every day life and allow it to function in a modern world. The only time people dispute theories is when it conflicts with the tenets of their faith like evolutionary theory and the Big Bang. Both of which have been accepted as valid and not contradictory to catholic teachings, the same teachings on which all western versions of Christianity are based.

From my point of view there are at least 2 different way you can interpret the New testament.

1 Jesus saves the ones who behave (he calls them sheep) and condemn the ones who do not (goats) regardless of faith. Faith Without Works Is Dead for instance. Parable of sheep and goat where some people of faith are condemned.
2 Jesus saves the ones who have faith in him/their view of him regardless of works (control of behaviour).

originally posted by: captaintyinknots
originally posted by: DarknStormy

exactly my point.

No your point was comparing Purple flying monkeys to Jesus who was possibly a real person back in the past. Have you heard of Buddhism? They believe they are the incarnate of previous spiritual leaders, why isn't it possible in Christianity also? Have you ever thought that maybe someone is going to be the incarnate of Jesus somewhere down the track?

a reply to: peter vlar

Where does it say that death bed conversions are acceptable? I am really interested to see where people got that from because from what I have read, it's one big pile of bs.

originally posted by: DarknStormy
Have you heard of Buddhism? They believe they are the incarnate of previous spiritual leaders, why isn't it possible in Christianity also?

We were just discussing that on another thread .... reincarnation in Christianity. Jesus pretty much confirmed it with his statement that John the Baptizer was Elijah returned. If you look at the teachings of Jesus, they kid of look like a cross between Judaism and Buddhism. Really. If you look at the teachings from a Buddhist slant, a lot makes sense that way ... But again ... that's for a different thread discussion.

originally posted by: DarknStormy
Where does it say that death bed conversions are acceptable?

Death bed ... death cross ... same thing. This 'good thief' (St. Dismas) didn't even say 'I believe you are the Christ'. All he said was 'Lord, remember me when you enter your kingdom'. And Jesus accepted Him. BAM ....

Luke 23:32-43, (NAS95) 32 Two others also, who were criminals, were being led away to be put to death with Him. 33 When they came to the place called The Skull, there they crucified Him and the criminals, one on the right and the other on the left. 34 But Jesus was saying, "Father, forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing." And they cast lots, dividing up His garments among themselves. 35 And the people stood by, looking on. And even the rulers were sneering at Him, saying, "He saved others; let Him save Himself if this is the Christ of God, His Chosen One." 36 The soldiers also mocked Him, coming up to Him, offering Him sour wine, 37 and saying, "If You are the King of the Jews, save Yourself!" 38 Now there was also an inscription above Him, "THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS." 39 One of the criminals who were hanged there was hurling abuse at Him, saying, "Are You not the Christ? Save Yourself and us!" 40 But the other answered, and rebuking him said, "Do you not even fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? 41 "And we indeed are suffering justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong." 42 And he was saying, "Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!" 43 And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."

originally posted by: peter vlar

What is there to get away with? Nobody believed in him the first time around except a small group of followers. And according to scripture all you have to do to get in to heaven is accept him. This includes death bed conversions. Besides all that, wasn't his whole message love and forgiveness? Of not then what's the whole point of it all?

Have you heard of "Transgression" and the "Laws of the Bible"? They aren't harsh and the theme is Self-Control. Through those religious people can expose anyone who says they are believers yet do not uphold the teachings. Believing in Jesus is believing in his teachings and laws.

So tell me where it says in the Bible that a death bed conversion is accepted? Can you point out the verse where it's referenced? Remember, if you are going to say such things, they must be written in the Bible to prove you are correct otherwise they really don't have any merit religiously speaking even if a Pope or priest seems to think it's legitimate.

2nd. Gravity too is a theory but I don't see anyone disputing that. There are any number of scientific principles that are just "theories" that apply to your every day life and allow it to function in a modern world. The only time people dispute theories is when it conflicts with the tenets of their faith like evolutionary theory and the Big Bang. Both of which have been accepted as valid and not contradictory to catholic teachings, the same teachings on which all western versions of Christianity are based.

As I said earlier, I see God as the creator of the Universe.. Everything after that is merely part of the creation and this includes science.

a reply to: DarknStormy


Because that's the whole thing about Christianity! No matter what you've done. As long as you repent an mean it you get to go to heaven.


Any serial killer who " found Jesus" is going to heaven, but every Indian medicine man who devoted his whole life to helping his
People is gonna burn in hell forever!

a reply to: FlyersFan

So using those two criminals on the crosses is enough to suggest you can be forgiven on your death bed even after let's say you are a serial killer or something? Someone who has continuously sinned knowing their actions are wrong? Boy it must be hard to get into hell...

a reply to: facedye


No atheists think there's no evidence god exists and atheists don't believe in a nuthing with no evidence...

a reply to: SaturnFX

So what you are saying is that I could go out and commit a genocide and when my number is called, I am forgiven if I understand what I done was wrong and repent? I will be in Paradise with Jesus? At least I know why terrorists are slaughtering people now, it makes sense.

a reply to: AfterInfinity

Yea, but my premiss is a hypothetical where somehow your able you verify the guy who shows up is the real son of god.


Like if a blonde haired blue guy showed up walking on water an manifesting all the wine and fish we could want.

a reply to: DarknStormy

Mathew 20: 1-16

20 “For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire workers for his vineyard. 2 He agreed to pay them a denarius[a] for the day and sent them into his vineyard.

3 “About nine in the morning he went out and saw others standing in the marketplace doing nothing. 4 He told them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right.’ 5 So they went.

“He went out again about noon and about three in the afternoon and did the same thing. 6 About five in the afternoon he went out and found still others standing around. He asked them, ‘Why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing?’

7 “‘Because no one has hired us,’ they answered.

“He said to them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard.’

8 “When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, ‘Call the workers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last ones hired and going on to the first.’

9 “The workers who were hired about five in the afternoon came and each received a denarius. 10 So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. 11 When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner. 12 ‘These who were hired last worked only one hour,’ they said, ‘and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.’

13 “But he answered one of them, ‘I am not being unfair to you, friend. Didn’t you agree to work for a denarius? 14 Take your pay and go. I want to give the one who was hired last the same as I gave you. 15 Don’t I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?’

16 “So the last will be first, and the first will be last.


Sorry but I'm very familiar with both Christian and gnostic writings. I've also been told the same thing by every priest I served as an altar boy under. You get the last rights, you're on the golden ticket to pass St. Peter.
You are bastardizing scripture to make yourself feel better about your superiority complex. If you actually read the NT you would know you are not espousing the values of Christ with your presumptive judgementalism. Best of luck to you with that.