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The Mormons: History, Doctrine, and a scary conspiracy

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posted on Nov, 28 2004 @ 08:59 AM
Thanks for all the feedback guys. I woke up this morning and wow
. Anyway let me add a little bit more about controversial doctrine, contridictions, etc.

First of all thank you for correcting my spelling and that the abyss is the outer darkness. The first thing I will say though is that I was always taught that paradise was fairly broad on who got in. It was actually one of the doctrines that appealed to me as it seemed to answer the proverbial quiestion "What happens to good Hindu's?" I believe the quote I remember reading is that the first judgement would be on the basis of the rules that one lived by. However, it wouldn't suprise me if this is a doctrine that more gets added to as you move in so if I'm in error thanks for the correction. It would be just like coming to acceptance of the three levels of Heaven only to find out that there is doctrine stating that there are multiple levels of the Celestial and therefore multiple levels of gods lol. You get the original doctrine in a believable state and then I guess in some way it does make it easier to swallow the next step, probably the point. I even remember hearing at one point that the true LDS doctrine stated that only the church hierchy made it to the top level, but I didn't post this because I don't have anything to back it up except heresay.

Oh, thanks for the description of the telestial kingdom. I new Smith had said it was wonderful but I had also heard it said that it was pretty close to Earth, just a much much better Earth and on almost infiinate levels. In fact I've stood in the spot that Smith apparently had the vision in which he was shown the three levels of heaven, it made quite an impression on me at the time. However in thinking about this it brings up an interesting contradiction. Doctrine states that when one dies they either go to paradise or spirit prison (thanks again for the clarification of terms, its been a while since I've done this). However, the origin story of Jospeh Smith very clearly states that Moroni came to him as an angel, even stated the fact that he was an angel I think. Being an angel would denote that one had been ressurected and placed in the Terrestrial level of heaven. So, how did Moroni become an angel? My answer would be that if one examines the Book of Mormon it never mentions most of the church doctrines that came into effect in later years including the three level of heaven, the progression, etc. So, Smith probably came up with the story never prediciting that it would later contradict doctrine. The official church reponse brings up even more questions. They state that Moroni because of his mission was allowed to progress. However they had to answer another question to. If Moroni was preordained to hide the plates and then come back to Smith as an Angel, was he not denied agency (free will) and the chance to progress? He would have basically been stopped at the Terrestrial Kingdom by this reasoning from the beginning of time. The Church answer to this is not to worry about Moroni, that he is still progressing. This of course brings up the question of whether or not people can improve their position within Heaven once they get there and even possibly move up to a higher tier over time.

I'm glad you mentioned the patriarchal blessing thats a very interestiing subject. I believe the practice came around after the translation of the Pearl of Great price when Smith decided that Abraham was an astrologer and that the practice had a divine nature. From that point on supposedly elders of the church with a certain gift could look at the position of the stars and in doing so thin the veil to determine a person's past as a spirit and their mission on Earth. However, funny enough I've heard a few of these blessings / fortunes and they tend to be strikingly similar. For men it seems to be something heoric in one's past like you fought valiantly in the war in heaven and then something to spur them on in their church life to serve a mission and stay faithful to the church. For women, it seems to be essentially an order to stay good, faithful, and have lots of mormon children. So yes probably at least part of the reason for keeping one's patriarchal blessing a secret is so that 100 people don't get together and figure out they have the same one.

Another similar process to this that occurs within the temple occurs when one first gains the full priesthood and has full access to the temple. By the way thanks for correcting me, I forgot to mention that members of the church in good standing that don't have the full priesthood can get further then the gift shop
lol. But anyway the first time one gets to completely enter the temple and go to the tellestial, terrestrial, and celestial rooms they are given a name. I believe that this is supposed to be their previous name from when they were a spirit and they name they would be known by in immortality. These names tend to be from the BOM or the Bible, only used in the temple, and is not to be shared. However what they forget to mention is that they essentially have a name of the day for men and for women and everyone gets that name for that day. I guess it cuts down on the paperwork but it must be quite a divine effort to make sure that only people of the same name enter the temple for the first time on any given day.

Another controversial was polygamy. When it was introduced Smith used the precident of the kings of ancient Israel. Namely those that were chosen could have multiple wives because they were worthy. From reading and this is speculative, the policy cme around about the time that Oliver Cowdrey's wife became available (Cowdrey left the church and his wife didn't follow.) So basically in the beginning polygamy was only for certain members of the hierchy at the behest of Smith.

The church is fanatical about making sure that the prophocies of Smith and other prophets come true and they are master apologists when need be. For example there was one gentlemen that for one reason or another Smith told would never see death. Now this is a direct reference to Jesus in the book of mormon telling his 3 beloved (ones that were extremely faithful) nephites that they would not see death and would dwell on the Earth until the second coming. However, Smith seems to have gotten ahead of himself because the guy died a few years later lol. The church answer to this is that he died in his sleep there for he never realized what was happening and did not "see" his death when it occured. Another was Smith's prophecy as to where the church would end up. If I remember correctly this spot was to be in Missouri but they were driven out of the area and eventually it became Salt Lake City according to the record of a saint that was with Smith and then Brigham Young. However the church has bought a good bit of land in the area of Missouri in question and it is now where Zion will be located during the Millenium of peace. I know there are other examples and any that people want to add would be appreciated.

Another previous practice of the mormons that didn't last very long for obvious reasons was that of blood atonement. This was a short used practice in Utah where if someone supposedly committed a particuarly grievous sin they were told that the only way to attone for the sin was death. They would then under order of the church willingly be taken out and disemboweled in a process reminescent of the blood oaths that they took. Word got out about this and it ended rather fast, but I remember at least one case when the practice was used because a member of the church hierarchy had taken favor to a mans wife. The man was put to death to atone for some rather convienent sin and then as a good upstanding member of the church the elder in question took the grieving widow to be one of his wives so she would be taken care of.

Yet another interesting doctrine is the word of wisdom. The word of wisdom is basically a dietary guideline that members are supposed to follow and is actually a good thing. It precludes the use of alchohol, tobacco, tea or coffee presumably for caffeine, and encourages the consumption of fruits and veggies and moderate consumption of meat. However, after the words of wisdom had been given they were not followed by the prophet or those close to him. I remember being in Institute (LDS college indoctrination) and reading a passage where Smith and his friends went out and had a nice picnic including a bottle of wine. I was the only one that seemed to be troubled that the prophet wasn't exactly practicing what he preached.

Finally, I find it pretty fascininating that Smith's early history is pretty much sweeped under the rug because it explains a lot of later events. Smith as a young man was somewhat of a scam artist. He would take money from people claiming to lead them to the location of buried treasure. He was eventually arrested for this and his trial is a matter or public record. The fascinating thing is the process Smith used to divine the location of said tresure. He had a stone he had found and claimed it to be a seer stone. He would put the stone in his cap, peer in, and be shown the location of the treature. It must not have been much of a stone because he didn't have any satisfied customers. However it does bear a striking resemblence to Smith's description of the Ummim and Thummin (Ok I butchered the spelling again), the magical stones used to translate the Book of Mormon. Smith would evidently put the magical stone in his hat and be given the translated meaning of the reformed hieroglyphics on the golden tablet.

[edit on 28-11-2004 by jukyu]

posted on Nov, 28 2004 @ 12:06 PM
Thank you Jukyw and all other contributors to this thread here in this topic and other recent topics.

Mormons and Masons, the in depth information shared in a scholarly and reasoned manner is one of the best I have seen on ats.

I do not have anything to add to this topic, but have read it all because it was so interesting.

The way that this topic is covered goes a long way to Deny Ignorance, IMHO

posted on Nov, 28 2004 @ 02:38 PM

Originally posted by an3rkist

(Hell is the place where the original one-third population of Heaven who followed Lucipher reside, and is where the few people deemed "Sons of Perdition" will end up after the Final Judgement. Very few people will go to the place called Hell. You kind of touched on it, but a Son of Perdition is defined as "Someone who denies the Holy Ghost with full knowledge of the Gospel" or something to that effect.)

So in other words I should start stocking up on the alloe? lol

posted on Nov, 30 2004 @ 03:59 AM

Originally posted by jukyu
...I know of some if not all of them but will respect the copyright of the LDS church and not list them here...

The Mormon church copyrights its own philosophy? That should raise a red flag right there...

posted on Nov, 30 2004 @ 12:26 PM
In college, I was given a Mormon Bible at the end of a visit from two Mormons. I gave them an "interesting, but I don't know" type answer. They said to pray about it and I'd get my answer. Being Christian anyway I was accustomed to doing so and did. The next day when they were due to stop by it was gone and the space on the bookshelf where it was placed was empty (it was next to the World Religions class books). So I chalked it up to my own bad memory and said I must have lost it. They said it was no problem and gave me another. Sure enough, same thing happened. They asked what I prayed for, I said "I prayed that I'd be shown the truth. So...I guess there's my answer." They gave me an "oh...strange..." type answer and shortly were re-located in their mission. Moving out of a college room, absolutely everything has to be cleared. I was sure two Mormon Bibles would show but none there.

Six years later I'd had a discussion about the incident with my mother as we were cleaning the kitchen and she said nonchalantly, "That's funny, same thing happened to me." I asked her what she meant because I wasn't sure we were on the same page and she clarified she was given a Mormon Bible and it disappeared.

Anybody else had this happen?

[edit on 30-11-2004 by saint4God]

posted on Dec, 3 2004 @ 08:57 AM

Originally posted by jukyu

Another controversial was polygamy. When it was introduced Smith used the precident of the kings of ancient Israel. Namely those that were chosen could have multiple wives because they were worthy. From reading and this is speculative, the policy cme around about the time that Oliver Cowdrey's wife became available (Cowdrey left the church and his wife didn't follow.) So basically in the beginning polygamy was only for certain members of the hierchy at the behest of Smith.

Just a sidenote pertaining to polygamy: As I mentioned in a previous post, the Mormons believe that not only does one need to be married and sealed to their spouse in order to enter the highest level of Heaven, the Celestial Kingdom, but they also believe that the man must call upon the woman during the Resurrection, by the Heavenly name given to her in the Temple rituals, (yes, the same name given to the rest of the women in the Temple that day), in order for her to be resurrected. Basically, the man resurrects the woman.

The Mormon church at this time does not allow polygamy, considers it a sin, and will excommunicate you if you're caught practicing it. However, it's fairly well-known that somewhere in the vicinity of the Second Coming, polygamy will be re-introduced. Why? Apparently there are more righteous women than men, and in order for all the women than need to be saved to be saved, they must be married to a righteous man. And since there's not enough righteous men to go around, the practice of polygamy will one day be used again, when authorized by the Prophet after receiving one of his convenient "revelations" from God.

posted on Dec, 4 2004 @ 10:38 PM
There's no indication for the need of polygamy to be put into practice of the LDS Church via revelation. Those people could be taken care of in the next life.

posted on Dec, 4 2004 @ 11:01 PM

Originally posted by petey_pongo23
There's no indication for the need of polygamy to be put into practice of the LDS Church via revelation. Those people could be taken care of in the next life.

There can and will be polygamy in the Celestial Kingdom. That is why men can be sealed to more than one woman in the temple. Sorry ladies, only one man for you.

posted on Dec, 4 2004 @ 11:03 PM
Oh, let me add that it can only be one woman at a time. But if your wife was to die, you could be sealed to another one, and still get the benefit of both wives in the hereafter.

posted on Dec, 5 2004 @ 09:34 AM
Oh so thats how poligamy is still alive and well? Just one wife at a time? I guess it does answer the whole question though about if your spouse dies and you remarry, who you meet in the hereafter lol.

posted on Dec, 6 2004 @ 11:14 AM
thank you for clearing that point up...I choose to have one wife and one wife only...when I do get polygamy for me...

posted on Dec, 7 2004 @ 05:38 PM
Oh and to completely clear it up, the historical poligamy was having several wives at the same time. It did serve a function though in the early Utah days as there were more young women then there were men so larger family units were needed to make sure everyone was taken care of. I guess my main problem with the practice is that it started out in Navoo and at first was only allowed to Smith and those he deemed worthy. Also that there is evidence it became practice after Smith desired another women and wanted a way to make it happen and not sin in the eyes of his people. Also I believe it to be one of the clearest pieces of evidence that the revelations of the prophet come out of conviencence instead of the will of their god.

posted on Dec, 11 2004 @ 08:06 PM
Thanks again for all the information guys. I think I've decided that the mason connection probably doesn't exist. I think that there is a desire by the LDS Church to take over though, just from how they set things up and the way they do things and well, they believe that in the end they will be in control just by doctrine.

posted on Dec, 14 2004 @ 10:04 PM
very interesting read, very well researched. I had one question. as far as i can tell, the LDS church teaches from the BoM and the Bible, mainly. With so much seemingly built around being married after death and all, how is the Matthew 22:23-33 dealt with? This would seem to be contrary to Jesus own teachings.

23 That same day some Sadducees stepped forward a group of Jews who say there is no resurrection after death. They posed this question:
24 "Teacher, Moses said, 'If a man dies without children, his brother should marry the widow and have a child who will be the brother's heir.'
25 Well, there were seven brothers. The oldest married and then died without children, so the second brother married the widow.
26 This brother also died without children, and the wife was married to the next brother, and so on until she had been the wife of each of them.
27 And then she also died.
28 So tell us, whose wife will she be in the resurrection? For she was the wife of all seven of them!"
29 Jesus replied, "Your problem is that you don't know the Scriptures, and you don't know the power of God.
30 For when the dead rise, they won't be married. They will be like the angels in heaven.
31 But now, as to whether there will be a resurrection of the dead haven't you ever read about this in the Scriptures? Long after Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob had died, God said,
32 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.' So he is the God of the living, not the dead."
33 When the crowds heard him, they were impressed with his teaching.

posted on Dec, 14 2004 @ 10:30 PM
Many years ago, I did considerable research on the world's religions and I have to say that Jesus summed it all up very well in just a couple of sentences.

Matthew 22 (KJV):

[36] Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
[37] Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
[38] This is the first and great commandment.
[39] And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
[40] On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

I think all other considerations are moot.

posted on Dec, 14 2004 @ 10:44 PM

Originally posted by jukyu
I guess my main problem with the practice is that it started out in Navoo and at first was only allowed to Smith and those he deemed worthy. Also that there is evidence it became practice after Smith desired another women and wanted a way to make it happen and not sin in the eyes of his people.

I was always amazed at how few people in the LDS religion were actually aware that Smith was a polygamist and had 33 wives while still alive. Most, like you said, assumed that it had more to do with need than revelation, but that just isn't right.

And what convenient revelations they were. I always liked that Emma Smith burned the original revelation instructing the practice of polygamy. But my favorite is the revelation he got after Emma wouldn't agree to it -

51 Verily, I say unto you: A commandment I give unto mine handmaid, Emma Smith, your wife, whom I have given unto you, that she stay herself and partake not of that which I commanded you to offer unto her; for I did it, saith the Lord, to prove you all, as I did Abraham, and that I might require an offering at your hand, by covenant and sacrifice.

52 And let mine handmaid, Emma Smith, receive all those that have been given unto my servant Joseph, and who are virtuous and pure before me; and those who are not pure, and have said they were pure, shall be destroyed, saith the Lord God.

53 For I am the Lord thy God, and ye shall obey my voice; and I give unto my servant Joseph that he shall be made ruler over many things; for he hath been faithful over a few things, and from henceforth I will strengthen him.

54 And I command mine handmaid, Emma Smith, to abide and cleave unto my servant Joseph, and to none else. But if she will not abide this commandment she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord; for I am the Lord thy God, and will destroy her if she abide not in my law.

55 But if she will not abide this commandment, then shall my servant Joseph do all things for her, even as he hath said; and I will bless him and multiply him and give unto him an hundredfold in this world, of fathers and mothers, brothers and sisters, houses and lands, wives and children, and crowns of eternal lives in the eternal worlds.

56 And again, verily I say, let mine handmaid forgive my servant Joseph his trespasses; and then shall she be forgiven her trespasses, wherein she has trespassed against me; and I, the Lord thy God, will bless her, and multiply her, and make her heart to rejoice.

This is just a portion mind you - but it's basically god telling Emma to let Smith have as many wives as he wants or he will strike her down. God even threw in a BTW - you're still not allowed to screw around.

Sheesh - no wonder she left.


god's threat to Emma

posted on Dec, 15 2004 @ 08:34 AM
Interesting read Bleys. Scary actually. Marry me or die by the hand of God! What a proposal! How could you say no to that? Even Jonah who was called to be a servant of God, walked away but still was not destoyed. God guided him where he needed to go.

Also, God didn't create man and woman at the same time. It was Adam's loneliness that let to the filling of each other's desire for companionship. You'd think Jesus would've married too if it was that important for salvation. After all, He is the role-model for Christianity. I'm not even going to start on Paul. I know what he was saying but think he was a bit on the extreme side supporting the single life. I like being married, find it gives me strength, but don't think it's for everybody nor think I'd be cast into the eternal fire otherwise.

posted on Dec, 15 2004 @ 09:13 AM
The Mormons claim that the Book of Mormon contains the fullness of the Gospel. Funny that polygamy is never mentioned in it. See the Doctrine and Covenants for that.

You have to go to The Pearl of Great Price to find doctorine that even talks about the temples or the priesthood.

This is the book that Joseph Smith allegedly translated off of the Egyptian papyra scrolls he bought from a traveling Egyptian mummy display. They say it contains the story of Abraham when he traveled to Egypt. The ironic part is that the church thought these scrolls were destroyed in a fire. They were discovered some time ago, and translated today are nothing more than Pagan Egyptian funeral Texts. You can see some of the pictograms in the actual Pearl of Great Price which is readily available to anyone. Click this link and feel free to view the fascimiles.

Anyone who can translate these will tell you that the above is exactly what they are.

Now the Church will tell you that the recovered scrolls are only part of what Joe Smith had, and not what he translated off of. This has been proven to be erroneous. In one of Joseph Smith's journals was found a copy of the Deseret alphabet that he used in translation of the papyra. See the following link for an excellent article on what exactly he did:

I'd love to talk more about these subjects if anyone wants.

edit: spelling

[edit on 15-12-2004 by thirddensity]

posted on Dec, 15 2004 @ 10:20 AM
Very well written!!! I think this applies to you:

In the book of revelations it describes the seven churchs. With just a little reading you can pretty much put names on them in today's world. Which do you think fits the mormon church? I debate between #3 & #5.


"The secret of the seven stars you have seen in my right hand, and of the seven golden lamp-stands is this: the seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lamp-stands are the seven churches themselves. "


'Write to the angel of the church in Ephesus and say, "Here is the message of the one who holds the seven stars in his right hand and who lives surrounded by the seven golden lamp-stands:

I know all about you: how hard you work and how much you put up with. I know you cannot stand wicked men, and how you tested the impostors who called themselves apostles and proved they were liars. I know, too, that you have patience, and have suffered for my name without growing tired.

Nevertheless, I have this complaint to make; you have less love now than you used to. Think where you were before you fell; repent, and do as you used to at first, or else, if you will not repent, I shall come to you and take your lamp-stand from its place.

It is in your favour, nevertheless, that you loathe as I do what the Nicolatians are doing.

If anyone has ears to hear, let him listen to what the Spirit is saying to the churches: those who prove victorious I will feed from the tree of life set in God's paradise."


'Write to the angel of the church in Smyrna and say, "Here is the message of the First and the Last, who was dead and has come to life again:

I know the trials you have had, and how poor you are -- though you are rich -- and the slanderous accusations that have been made by the people who profess to be Jews but are really members of the synagogue of Satan.

Do not be afraid of the sufferings that are coming to you: I tell you, the devil is going to send some of you to prison to test you, and you must face an ordeal for ten days. Even if you have to die, keep faithful, and I will give you the crown of life for your prize.

lf anyone has ears to hear, let him listen to what the Spirit is saying to the churches: for those who prove victorious there is nothing to be afraid of in the second death."


'Write to the angel of the church in Pergamum and say, "Here is the message ; of the one who has the sharp sword, double-edged:

I know where you live, in the place where Satan is enthroned, and that you still hold firmly to my name, and did not disown your faith in me even when my faithful witness, Antipas, was killed in your own town, where Satan lives.'

Nevertheless, I have one or two complaints to make: some of you are followers of Balaam, who taught Balak to set a trap for the Israelites so that they committed adultery by eating food that has been sacrificed to idols;

and among you, too, there are some as bad who accept what the Nicolatians teach.

You must repent, or I shall soon come to you and attack these people with the sword out of my mouth. If anyone has ears to hear, let him listen to what the Spirit is saying to the churches:

to those who prove victorious I will give the 'hidden manna and a white stone -- a stone with a new name written on it, known only to the man who receives it."


'Write to the angel of the church in Thyatira and say, "Here is the message of the Son of God who has eyes like a burning flame and feet like burnished bronze:

I know all about you and how charitable you are; I know your faith and devotion and how much you put up with, and I know how you are still making progress.

Nevertheless, I have a complaint to make: you are encouraging the woman Jezebel who claims to be a prophetess, and by her teaching she is luring my servants away to commit the adultery of eating food which has been sacrificed to idols. I have given her time to reform but she is not willing to change her adulterous life. Now I am consigning her to bed, and all her partners in adultery to troubles that will test them severely, unless they repent of their practices; and I will see that her children die, so that all the churches realize that it is I who search heart and loins and give each one of you what your behavior deserves.

But on the rest of you in Thyatira, all of you who have not accepted this teaching: or learned the secrets of Satan, as they are called, I am not laying any special duty; but hold firmly on to what you already have until I come.

To those who prove victorious, and keep working for me until the end, I will give the authority over the pagans which I myself have been given by my Father, to rule them with an iron sceptre and shatter them like earthenware.

And I will give him the Morning Star. If anyone has ears to hear, let him listen to what the Spirit; is saying to the churches."


'Write to the angel of the church in Sardis and say, "Here is the message of the one who holds the seven spirits of God and the seven stars:

I know all about you: how you are reputed to be alive and yet are dead. Wake up; revive: what little you have left: it is dying fast. So far I have failed to notice anything in the way you live that my God could possibly call perfect, and yet do you remember how eager you were when you first heard the message? Hold on to that. Repent. If you do not wake up, I shall come to you like a thief, without telling you at what hour to expect me.

There are a few in Sardis, it is true, who have kept their robes from being dirtied, and they are fit to come with me, dressed in white. Those who prove victorious will be dressed, like these, in white robes;

I shall not blot their names out of the book of life, but acknowledge their names in the presence of my Father and his angels. If anyone has ears to hear, let him it listen to what the Spirit is saying to the churches."


'Write to the angel of the church in Philadelphia and say, "Here is the message of the holy and faithful one who has the key of David, so that when he opens, nobody can close, and when he closes, nobody can open:

I know all about you; and now I have opened in front of you a door that nobody will be able to close -- and I know that though you are not very strong, you have kept my commandments and not disowned my name.

Now I am going to make the synagogue of Satan -- those who profess to be Jews, but are liars, because they are no such thing -- I will make them come and fall at your feet and admit that you are the people that I love.

Because you have kept my commandment to endure trials, I will keep you safe in the time of trial which is going to come for the whole world, to test the people of the world. Soon I shall be with you: hold firmly to what you already have, and let nobody take your prize away from you.

Those who prove victorious I will make into pillars in the sanctuary of my God, and they will stay there for ever; I will inscribe on them the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem which comes down from my God in heaven, and my own new name as well If anyone has ears to hear, let him listen to what the Spirit is saying to the churches."


'Write to the angel of the church in Laodicea and say, "Here is the message of the Amen, the faithful, the true witness, the ultimate source of God's creation:

I know all about you: how you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were one or the other, but since you are neither, but only lukewarm, I will spit you out of my mouth. You say to yourself, 'I am rich, I have made a fortune, and have everything I want', never realizing that you are wretchedly and pitiably poor, and blind and naked too.

I warn you, buy from me the gold that has been tested in the fire to make you really rich, and white robes to clothe you and cover your shameful nakedness, and eye ointment to put on your eyes so that you are able to see.

I am the one who reproves and disciplines all those he loves: so repent in real earnest. Look, I am standing at the door, knocking. If one of you hears me calling and opens the door, I will come in to share his meal, side by side with him.

Those who prove victorious I will allow to share my throne, just as I was victorious myself and took my place with my Father on his throne. If anyone has ears to hear, let him listen to what the Spirit is saying to the churches."

posted on Dec, 15 2004 @ 11:59 AM
I've read Revelations a few times, it being my fav. book, but maybe I'm missing something that's clear to you. What churches are what and why? I thought these to be generic to the way churches behave but seems you view them very specifically. I'm very interested in how these churches are defined.

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