saint4god asked me to take a look at this thread and see what I had to say, since I am a Mormon. Jukyu's description is reasonably accurate,
although I have a few comments.
1) Cain is cursed and sent away. According to doctrine this curse is dark colored skin, or essentially Cain became the first African. The
reason that African Americans could not become priests was that they were said to bear the mark of Cain. Of interesting note however is that Mormons
do not believe that the sin of one?s ancestors is passed on so this seems to be a contradiction
Yeah, it does seem like a contradiction to me, too. I can't explain it, although reserving the priesthood for a select few isn't new; for example,
the Levites were the only ones who could have the priesthood in Moses time. Interestingly, I have come across cases of *white* people who were denied
the priesthood because they had African ancestor(s), and also *black* people who were not Africans, who were allowed the priesthood. Not sure what to
make of that, myself. I've been told it was a 'lineage' restriction, not a 'race' restriction, on the priesthood.
2) Noah, not Moses, built the Ark, hehe. (Hey, even Ken Jennings got this wrong on a trick question on Jeopardy!, they asked him how many of each
animal Moses took on the ark  He says 2 of each, gets it wrong, since the answer is zero. I assume you were probably just tired when you
wrote that, no biggie)
3) Another thing that just comes to mind is the question of Cain?s descendants. Someone a couple must have survived the flood
One of Noah's daughters-in-law was descended from Cain, and married Ham. This is how. Ham's son Caanan, was cursed by God. (Gen. 9:25) If you
have a Bible published by the Mormon church, it includes a Bible Dictionary at the back, look up 'Ham', there's a bit more there about this.
4) Of importance to the mormons is one group of people at this time, the Jaredites. They were a group (the sole group?) that stayed faithful to
the teachings of god
I thought about this for quite awhile. There must have been other groups left in the Old World that were still believers, but for whatever reason
were not part of the Jaredite group that left. Since people like Abraham, Moses, and many others were in the Old World, after the Tower of Babel, the
Jaredites could not have been the only believers lieft, although they were apparently the only people who didn't have their language randomly
changed.
5) Abraham receives the priesthood from Melchezidek, a man that is mysterious in the Bible and the mormons speculate was either a follower of
god or possibly an earlier human incarnation of Christ for the purpose of bringing the priesthood back
Mormons definitely believe the first one, i.e. that Melzchezidek was a follower of God. I have never heard the incarnation idea in my life. As far
as the Mormon church is concerned, that is false doctrine.
6) Abraham rises to some power in Egypt and leaves an account of the creation of the world and other texts in a reformed Egyptian script on the
wrappings of a mummy. These are later found by Joseph Smith when the mummy comes to America and is the basis of the Pearl of Great Price.
This is about 99% correct. The copy found on the mummy are Abraham's words. However, the texts found with the mummy were copies of the original.
Scientists used dating methods on the few bits of text surviving today, and have found that they date to something like 100BC-100AD, way past the time
of Abraham. As a side note, some critics point to the header of the book of Abraham which states in part, 'written by his own hand, upon papyrus.'
This refers to Abraham being the author of the text, not to having scribed that particular copy, much as Stephen King did not personally type out the
copy of 'Dark Tower' on my shelf; someone else did, he just wrote the manuscript.
7) The tribe of Joseph is saved through the prophet Lehi who under the direction of god takes his sons, their wives, a record of the books of
Moses engraved on bronze plates, and the sacred items of prophecy from the temple (the breastplate of aaron, the ummum, and the thummin,) to the
mediteranean. There they build a cube shaped ark with no windows and are transported to Central America.
Couple of small things here, nitpicking, really. Brass plates, not bronze. Urim and Thummim. The arks (or barges, as they are called in Ether) were
described as dish-shaped, and there were more than one (just says barges, so not sure how many, only that its >1)
8) After facing opposition due to polygamy, there was another convienent revalation by god ending polygamy and making it a sin. Utah was allowed
to enter as a state but Brigham Young did not become its governor.
Actually, Brigham Young did become governor of Utah, from 1849-1852 (as a territory) and 1852-1857 (as a state). James Buchanan removed Young from
office in 1857, over polygamy, which was still practiced until 1890. (See www.desertusa.com... which is a good
unbiased bio of Young)
9) One must be baptized by one holding the Aaronic priesthood and then obtain the Aaronic priesthood themselves. This is usually obtained by
male members of the church in their early teens if I remember correctly
You remember correctly. Deacon at 12, Teacher at 14, Priest at 16. Then Melchizedek (that name is so hard to spell, hehe) Priesthood at 18.
10) After one returns from their mission they are generally seen fit to receive the full or Melchezideck priesthood. This is bestowed upon them
during their first visit to the temple
No, this happens *before* a mission. No exceptions. You are not allowed to be a missionary until you go to the temple (male or female) and receive
the Melchizedek priesthood (male only). The priesthood is not bestowed in the temple, it can be done anywhere. In my case, it was done each time in
my local chapel, except for the Melchizedek, which was done in my home with the bishop and other leaders present. There's no reason it couldn't be
done in a temple, but I've never heard of this being done in a temple, except for some of the ordinances for the dead, where a man receives the
priesthood in proxy for a deceased male (usually an ancestor but not necessarily)
11) I don?t know if there are levels here but since one has heard of arch-angels it seems to be a good presumption that some angels are greater
then others.
Yes, there are levels in all 3 of the kingdoms, Celestial, Terrestrial, Telestial. The number of levels in the last two is unknown. In the Celestial
kingdom, D&C 131:1 explicitly states there are exactly 3 levels. It could be reasonable to assume each of Terrestrial, Telestial, has 3 levels, too,
but that would be a pure guess and uncorroborated by scripture.
12) There is a fairly close connection between the free-masons and the mormons and going on this theory they were created by the
free-masons
The Mormons do have some early Masonic connections, but none at the founding of the Church. During the Nauvoo time period, Joseph Smith and his
brother Hyrum did become Masons, and other Mormons were Masons or became masons later, too. For reasons I am not sure of, the Church today
discourages its members from becoming Masons, although there is no rule against it. The secret (or sacred, not secret, as most Mormons will insist; I
say they are both) temple rituals were introduced before Smith ever became a Mason, but changes were made along the way, and many say this was because
he copied the Masonic rituals. I unfortunately cannot find the reference; due to forgetting the exact wording my searches were ineffective, but
Joseph Smith was told by God that when the endowment was revealed, he didn't get all of it at once, and that more would come later.
13) This was also during the Morgan incident and Smith was said to have known Morgan
I cannot confirm nor deny this. I don't think it's definitively known whether Smith knew Morgan or not. I'm not familiar with that incident; I
don't know much about Masons. There is one person on ATS, I think his/her handle is Masonic Light, he/she knows TONS about Masons, maybe ask them
about this?
14) The temple ceremonies came into effect after Smith and others became mormons, a fact that was acknowledged by the church.
False. The temple ceremonies (at least the original, not fully revealed versions) were already in effect before this. I also assume that in your
quote you meant to say 'mason', not 'mormon', since its obvious the temple ceremonies came into effect after they became Mormon, lol.
The official line of the church is that Smith recognized the ancient and divine nature of these rituals and therefore implemented them into the
temple.
False. The church believes that Smith received the ordinances from God directly, not from Masons.
One specific example is the blood oaths taken by both groups. These oaths pledge the person involved to effectively forfeit their life though
various grisley means should they reveal the secrets of the organization / church. I won?t go into the exact ceremonies due to copyrights but I will
say that if you compare the two they are almost identical. One addendum, though, the church did change the oaths in (the 1960?s?) after someone
released them to the general public. Now the blood oaths are not spoken but the motions symbolizing disemboweling and other means of death are still
present. Finally from the past, when Smith died he was wearing a Jupiter medal, a Masonic symbol.
There were indeed blood oaths of the sort you describe in the temple ceremonies. The ceremonies were changed, but you have the date wrong. It was
April 10, 1990. They removed all of the penalty signs and blood oaths. (so I have been told & read, I have not gone through this ceremony personally
and, strictly speaking, am not supposed to know anything about it) Apparently some smaller changes were made sometime in the earlier part of the 20th
century, but I don't have a date for that, since one isn't available, that I know of. As for the Jupiter medal, that is the first time I have seen
it mentioned that he wore one. Some reports mention Joseph Smith made some Masonic signs for 'is there no mercy for the widow's son?' right before
he was shot, but other reports have no mention of this. I wouldn't be surprised if he did; after all, he likely knew the sign, and if you knew you
were going to get shot, why not give it a try, you have nothing to lose.
15) [quote[There is even a mormon doctrine albeit not a well known one that in the final days that the United States will begin to fall apart and it
will be necessary for the church hierarchy to take over the country to prevent it from collapsing.
I've never heard this one before. We do believe that at the 2nd coming, Jesus will lead a kind of one world government, kind of like a benevolent
NWO, but quote #15 I am nearly certain is untrue.
16) Also you have a virtual fortress as someone mentioned in the middle of Salt Lake City with its own power source, independent water sources
for every level, under ground parking facilities, a structure that could withstand a lot of punishment, not to mention an enormous grain silo with
millions of tons of grain nearby
Dunno about that, I've never actually been to SLC. It could be true; Mormons like to be prepared for anything. We are counseled to keep 1 years
supply of food handy, and other useful stuff, like might be found in survival and first aid kits.
17) There is a spirit out there connected with this religion and it is not of God
I know this is your opinion, but I have to throw in my two cents and disagree. As for the rest of Part 4, well, it is all your opinion, so I have no
right to critique that. I have heard similar stories to yours, however.
In reference to An3rkist's post, it is all correct as far as I saw, except for a few things in the following:
The wife cannot receive Eternal Life and advance to the Celestial Kingdom without a husband who is worthy. She cannot receive Eternal life
until he calls her by her Heavenly name which she received in the Temple on earth. Also, kind of interesting, the Mormons believe the Earth will be
transformed in the last days, and receive what they call, its "Paradasiacal Glory", where basically it will turn into Heaven. I can't remember if
it becomes the Telestial, Terestrial, or Celestial Kingdom.
This is actually backwards. Mormons believe that *men* cannot receive the highest level of the Celestial kingdom without a wife. (D&C 131:2-4) The
verses make no mention of women, but my understanding from talks by church leaders is that a worthy unmarried woman will get to marry somebody in the
afterlife. (unmarried men can marry in the afterlife too, or, alternately, the wife could become a polygamous wife of a man who already had a
wife/wives)
As to the other point, Mormons believe the Earth will become the Celestial kingdom. (as a side note, I spoke to a priest-in-training for the 7th Day
Adventists, and they believe Heaven will be on Earth, too, and share a few other beliefs with us, also, more than nearly any other religion I know
of)
Response to An3rkist's 3rd post:
Maybe someday the Prophet will call for all the Mormons to make a pilgrimage to Salt Lake City, living only off their seventy-two hour kits or
something. Or maybe it's just a good thing to have in case a natural disaster hits and you need to get to a disaster relief base as quickly as
possible. It would also have stuff like flashlights, batteries, a blanket maybe, matches/lighter, drinks, a cell phone perhaps, anything you think
would be necessary for one.
I think its a good idea for anyone to have basic survival stuff in their house, regardless of religion or lack thereof. I don't expect the Prophet
to call us all to SLC, though, hehe.
originally posted by thirddensity
I'm having a hell of a time getting my name off the records. So I've been doing research and sharing information about the church with active
members. I've been called an apostate quite a few times and feel that my excommunication could happen very soon.
You're not the first person I've heard complain about getting your name off the records. I really don't see why we make it so hard, but I've
heard it is possible. Just keep telling the bishop and the clerks you want this. As for being called apostate, I think that's rather rude of
people. As for excommunication, they won't ex you just for not going to church for 14 years, you'd have to do something they really didn't like,
maybe publish antiMormon literature or speak out against the church or embezzle church funds or kill somebody or commit adultery or something like
that. It's pretty rare nowadays. I personally know only one excommunicated member, but I've heard 2nd and 3rd hand stories of a few others.
Response to another an3rkist post:
I've heard they never actually remove your name from the records, even if they finally say they did. I heard that at most they'll just put
the word "Removed" next to your name on the records or something. I do know that the Mormons have noticed that I haven't paid my tithing in awhile,
and they have actually put quite a bit of effort in finding me. I lived on a mountain all by myself once, and they came all the way the two hour road
in four feet of snow to try and get me to start coming back to church. (I don't know how they found me up there.) And then when I joined the Army and
came to Korea, they found me here, too. And I actually took some precautions to try and keep them from finding me here!
Lol, I can SO see this happening, too  Some ppl are really gung-ho about 're-activating', as we call it, people like yourself who have decided
they don't want to come to church anymore. I'm more of the 'choose for yourself' type, I don't pressure inactive people to come back. I might
tell them I think it's a good idea in my opinion, but I let them lead their own lives. As for the 'removed' thing next to your name, that's often
what they do if you ask for name removal, but *real* name removal like the kind you want is possible, just harder to get done. Again, since I've
never tried this, I don't know the steps. I don't know how those guys found you either , they must have done some real detective work, heh.
Thirddensity: (btw, love the avatar, star wars is my fav movie ever! lightsabers rock!)
Mormons do not believe in hell. What you called the abyss and another called spirit prison are two different things. Spirit Prison, as was
stated, is where everyone unworthy goes where they die. Then you have the three degrees of glory that all have infinate layers. What you referred to
as the abyss is actually called outer darkness. This is where the Sons of Perdition go. These are the people that have know the gospel and became
heretics. You literally cease to exist. Period.
We DO believe in Hell, it is synonymous with the term Outer Darkness (in Mormonism, anyway). It is lower than the telestial kingdom. It is where
sons of perdition and the worst of the worst of humanity goes, as well as those who commit the unpardonable sin (as it is called in most Christian
religions) of denying the Holy Spirit. People who simply leave the Mormon church would probably not go here, unless they were really really bad. You
don't cease to exist here, but you will wish you had.
The orliginal God that created Elohim and everything in existance is completley different than the God Mormons worship. Think about it. Any
mormon will tell you that Elohim had to do exactly what we have to do to attain Godhood. So why does the mormon buck stop at him? I prefer to worship
the source, the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end
Mormons believe that there is no distinction between what you are calling 'the
Mormon God 'Elohim' and the 'Alpha and Omega.' We believe that God had to go through mortality like we did, and he made it to the highest level
of the celestial kingdom on his world. So according to Mormonism, God must have had a God, and it follows that this probably goes way way back. What
you say does kind of make sense though, you are saying you worship the original God in this long chain. I guess to use a silly political analogy, God
is like the state governor, and his God (and so on, ad infinitum) is like the president of the states. Mormonism is saying you don't have to worship
the guy higher up, just the local leader (yeah, crap analogy, but it was spur of the moment  )
Response to Grommer:
As far as guns go, most of the people I've ever met through the church were gun freaks (they all had huge cache's of weapons and
munitions)
Hmm, I suppose I've met one or two that were like this, they are probably the same percentage within and without the church, I'd say. I for one
don't have any guns; I've never even fired a gun, unless waterguns or videogames count, hehe. My largest weapon is a swiss army knife.
Jukyu, part 5:
1) I even remember hearing at one point that the true LDS doctrine stated that only the church hierchy made it to the top level, but I didn't
post this because I don't have anything to back it up except heresay
I've never heard this. Our teachings are that anyone can make it
there, provided they do the right things to deserve it (10 commandments, all that stuff)
2)Jospeh Smith very clearly states that Moroni came to him as an angel, even stated the fact that he was an angel I think. Being an angel would
denote that one had been ressurected and placed in the Terrestrial level of heaven. So, how did Moroni become an angel?
I did a search on D&C and Joseph Smith - History in the standard works of Mormon scripture, Smith never called Moroni an 'angel' in those, (he may
have elsewhere, I didn't look tonight, but he didn't in our scriptures) but 'angel' is an extremely common term in the church to use for Moroni.
We regularly say 'the angel moroni' when we refer to the guy on top of our temples. I never thought about it before, but there does seem to be some
ambiguity over the term 'angel' in Mormonism. It can either mean the terrestrial being you refer to, or, and more commonly, I have heard it
referring to someone who has been resurrected in full glory. Mormons believe this latter is what happened to Moroni, though I don't know of any
proof either way.
3) If Moroni was preordained to hide the plates and then come back to Smith as an Angel, was he not denied agency (free will) and the chance to
progress?
Nope. Moroni could have refused. We all have free will. God is omniscient, so he would have known Moroni would have chosen to accept this task.
God also knew 1000000000+ years ago that I was going to write this ATS article today. He knows it all.
4) This of course brings up the question of whether or not people can improve their position within Heaven once they get there and even
possibly move up to a higher tier over time.
I'm starting to get tired (I've been typing over 2 hrs) so I won't bother to find the references, but we believe you can gradually work your way up
to one level below 'god' level. I forget now if you can cross 'kingdoms', i.e. hell to telestial, telestial to terrestrial, terrestrial to
celestial. I'd have to look it up, and like I said, I've been at this awhile.
5) I'm glad you mentioned the patriarchal blessing thats a very interestiing subject. I believe the practice came around after the translation
of the Pearl of Great price when Smith decided that Abraham was an astrologer and that the practice had a divine nature. From that point on supposedly
elders of the church with a certain gift could look at the position of the stars and in doing so thin the veil to determine a person's past as a
spirit and their mission on Earth. However, funny enough I've heard a few of these blessings / fortunes and they tend to be strikingly similar. For
men it seems to be something heoric in one's past like you fought valiantly in the war in heaven and then something to spur them on in their church
life to serve a mission and stay faithful to the church. For women, it seems to be essentially an order to stay good, faithful, and have lots of
mormon children. So yes probably at least part of the reason for keeping one's patriarchal blessing a secret is so that 100 people don't get
together and figure out they have the same one.
The church has never believed in astrology. Facsimile 3 in the book fo abraham states that Abraham is reasoning upon the principles of
Astronomy, in the king's court.
We do have patriarchs who give these blessings to people (I've never had mine, though, very unusual at my
age) As for them being similar, I don't know, but it's common for spouses and sometimes children or other close family members to let each other
read them, so I think they'd figure it out. The 'tribe' you are assigned to in the blessing is usually Ephraim though, that's almost universal,
especially for those born in the church. The tribe of ephraim is concerned with missionary work in this life.
6) I remember being in Institute (LDS college indoctrination) and reading a passage where Smith and his friends went out and had a nice picnic
including a bottle of wine. I was the only one that seemed to be troubled that the prophet wasn't exactly practicing what he preached.
Yeah,
this is true. There are about 2-3 times this occurs in the 7 volume set 'History of the Church' by B.H. Roberts (which i have read in its entirety,
but most certainly don't feel like leafing through to find the references) I was bothered by this too. I spoke to an institute instructor about it.
He did some research and about a week later he told me that at first the word of wisdom was a 'guideline', rather than a 'commandment.', kind of
like we are encouraged to serve missions, not to date until 16, things like that. It was only in Presdent Heber J Grant's time that obeying the Word
of wisdom became part of a temple recommend interview and could keep you out of the temple if you didn't follow it.
D&C 27:3 Wherefore, a commandment I give unto you, that you shall not purchase a wine neither strong drink of your enemies;
D&C 89:5-6 That inasmuch as any man adrinketh wine or strong drink among you, behold it is not good, neither meet in the sight of your Father,
only in assembling yourselves together to offer up your sacraments before him.
v6 And, behold, this should be wine, yea, a pure wine of the grape of the vine, of your own make.
Those verses helped me reconcile the fact, although it does still bother me some that Smith drank wine a couple of times.
7) Smith as a young man was somewhat of a scam artist. He would take money from people claiming to lead them to the location of buried
treasure. He was eventually arrested for this and his trial is a matter or public record. The fascinating thing is the process Smith used to divine
the location of said tresure. He had a stone he had found and claimed it to be a seer stone. He would put the stone in his cap, peer in, and be shown
the location of the treature. It must not have been much of a stone because he didn't have any satisfied customers. However it does bear a striking
resemblence to Smith's description of the Ummim and Thummin (Ok I butchered the spelling again), the magical stones used to translate the Book of
Mormon. Smith would evidently put the magical stone in his hat and be given the translated meaning of the reformed hieroglyphics on the golden
tablet.
There are a lot of conflicting reports about this. Smith did have a criminal record where he was convicted of 'mischief' (or
something like that, anyway) but there is no mention of what he did or any sentence (the same record has other ppls sentences), so scholars assume he
was let off with a warning. The record refers to Smith as 'the glass looker'. Smith did have a 'seer stone'; the church actually has it in
their possession somewhere (in a museum i think) It is separate from the Urim and Thummim, which we do not have anymore. Smiths explanation of the
treasure hunting is found in the pearl of great price, under joseph smith history; basically he worked for Josiah Stoal as a silver miner, and didn't
find anything. I don't believe he was a treasure hunter, myself, any of the reports I have seen of this are fairly unreliable.
Thirddensity:
There can and will be polygamy in the Celestial Kingdom. That is why men can be sealed to more than one woman in the temple. Sorry ladies, only
one man for you.
Absoultely, according to our beliefs. You can also have multiple wives in the celestiak kingdom if your first wife dies and
you remarry, providing both were temple marriages. So even in this day and age, a mormon can have multiple women in the afterlife. A woman who is
sealed to her husband, whose husband dies, and remarries a mormon man, will not be sealed to the 2nd man, she goes to the first man.
Demorior: matthew 22:23-33. as above, she would go to the one she had the temple marriage with.
Bleys: I was always amazed at how few people in the LDS religion were actually aware that Smith was a polygamist and had 33 wives while still
alive.
The # of wives he had varies from source to source, but that sounds roughly right, if a little high (I was under the impression it was maybe half
that, but like I say, there's disagreement over the number) I think the majority of mormons where I live know Smith was polygamist, but I don't
think they know the extent of it, and don't really think about it too much, since it isn't practiced today.
thirddensity: The Mormons claim that the Book of Mormon contains the fullness of the Gospel. Funny that polygamy is never mentioned in
it
A lot of stuff we believe in isn't in the BoM. But everything you ever needed to know about living a righteous life is in there. That's
what they mean when they say that, IMHO.
This is the book that Joseph Smith allegedly translated off of the Egyptian papyra scrolls he bought from a traveling Egyptian mummy display.
They say it contains the story of Abraham when he traveled to Egypt. The ironic part is that the church thought these scrolls were destroyed in a
fire. They were discovered some time ago, and translated today are nothing more than Pagan Egyptian funeral Texts. You can see some of the pictograms
in the actual Pearl of Great Price which is readily available to anyone. Click this link and feel free to view the fascimiles.
scriptures.lds.org...
Anyone who can translate these will tell you that the above is exactly what they are.
Now the Church will tell you that the recovered scrolls are only part of what Joe Smith had, and not what he translated off of. This has been proven
to be erroneous. In one of Joseph Smith's journals was found a copy of the Deseret alphabet that he used in translation of the papyra. See the
following link for an excellent article on what exactly he did:
www.mormonstudies.com...
I'd love to talk more about these subjects if anyone wants.
There is a lot of controversy over this. In fact, this very issue is what got me started researching church history a couple of years back. Most of
the papyrus found with the mummies was destroyed or lost over time. Some were found in the 1960s by a nonMormon professor of religion who recognized
the facsimiles. The translations are an excerpt from the Book of Breathings, which is basically a coles notes version of the more famous Book of the
Dead. Even Mormon Egyptologists concur with this. I have read so many articles arguing both sidse of this issue I won't get into it here, but I'll
state my beliefs about the issue.
The papyri we have now are only a fraction of what Smith had. (this is hotly debated, but I believe true, based on descriptions of the papyri during
Smith's time) I saw a figure once that claimed we have 13% of the original (no clue how they got that number, though, I seriously doubt the accuracy
of that, it seems like a guess to me) Also, more credibly, Joseph F. Smith (original Smith's nephew, Hyrum's son, and one of the presidents of the
church) said that he saw his uncle translating the papyri and from his description of how much there was, there was a heck of a lot more papyri than
the couple of fragments we have now.
That still doesn't explain what egyptian funerary rites are doing in there, though. My theory is the following: When Smith bought the papyri and
mummies from Chandler, Chandler insisted Smith buy the entire exhibit or nothing at all. Smith, feeling inspired to do so, raised the rather steep
price of $2400 in the 1830s!! (1835 if i recall right, but I'm tired and too lazy to look up) from donations and bought them. He sorted through all
the stuff and found (paraphrasing) 'the book of abraham and the book of joseph' (book of joseph never saw publciation or translation; this was the
joseph in egypt that got sold into slavery by brothers) So basically, Smith bought a whole bunch of stuff he didn't really want to get what he did
want, kind of like a giant grab bag. Unfortunately, we found some of the other stuff, not the book of abraham, although we did find the facsimiles.
I've seen some Mormon apologists try and justify Smith's translations of the facsimiles, the only part of his translation we can verify, and I've
seen others try and prove Smith was a fraud over this, and it is a difficult issue, probably the toughest one in Mormonism. It's up to each
individual person who to believe on this issue. As for the Deseret alphabet, I've seen attempts to discredit it by apologists, and attempts to use
it to prove Smith was a hoax. For a pro-Mormon read on this, try "The Story of the Book of Abraham: Mummies, Manuscripts and Mormonism" by H. Donl.
Peterson (1995) or "The Saga of the Book of Abraham" by Jay M. Todd (1969); the last one written soon after the papyri were found, though, so some
information in that is wrong due to new discoveries in the last 36 years. For an anti-Mormon read, try "By His Own Hand on Papyrus" by Charles
Larson. I've read Todd and Larson, but have only skimmed Peterson.
djohnsto77: As far as the seven letters to the seven churches in Asia Minor of Revelation, I think they are really letters to seven churches in
Turkey at John's time
That's what I think, too.
questionreality: Yes they believe that Lehi cam to the americas, but its not as simple as they were the Aztecs and the Inca, the Jaredites were
still around then as well, and many other factors.
I don't think we have enough information to make any correlations between Aztecs, Inca,
Mayan, Olmec, etc and BoM peoples, Nephites, Lamanites, Jaredites, etc. There's theories on this, but since archaeology hasn't provided anything
more than circumstantial evidence for the BoM, it would be guesswork.
Polygamy isnt considered a sin necessarily, but it is forbidden to be practiced because it contradicts the law of the land
Exactly. If
it was made legal again (fat chance, lol) we would probably start it up again.
Blacks did not suddenly get the right to hold the priesthood during the Civil rights movement, they were allowed to receive the priesthood in
the 70's, adn i thought the civil rights movement was in the 50's.. Any Black man claiming descrimination and demanding he receive teh priesthood
WILL STILL BE DENIED. The priesthood is only bestowed on those of Faith within the church. Black, white, yellow, red or green all can hold the
priesthood. I know MANY black members that old the Priesthood. It changed the way many in the church thought, and many fell away, it challenged their
faith in God.
As of Sept.30,1978, all men old enough and worthy enough were allowed the priesthood, "without regard for race or color" (direct quote from the
official declaration by president kimball who announced it) I know a few blacks who have the priesthood (not many, but then, not many blacks, mormon
or not, around here) The civil rights movement had nothing to do with the revelation on priesthood, they were separated by over 2 decades.
When you die, you do not go to heaven or hell, you go and await the second coming, where that is, I do not remember what it is call, but
EVERYONE goes there until the return of Christ.
It's called the 'spirit world'. Depending on your conduct in life, it can been seen as 'spirit prison' or as a 'paradise' (hence some of the
confusion by nonmormons on this) It's kind of like the waiting room before the 2nd coming. We believe a lot of missionary work goes on in that
place, to people who never got to hear about the gospel while on earth.
Lamagraa: an incedent at a ward we're there were non-members sitting on a couch outside the chapel during sacrament (the passing of the bread
and water) and the kid was about to give these non members it and an older member told them the could'nt recieve it yet most of the wards I've gone
allow this (he was just rude about it)
Hmm that older member was a jerk. Nonmembers are allowed to take the sacrament, but since they
haven't been baptized, it doesn't mean anything. The only people who can't have the sacrament are those who are excommunicated. You are also
counseled not to take it if you feel you have sinned recently, but that is betewen you and God.
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see sun with face comments, its the same face. 
That's what I want to know about. Maybe even print-outs would help to bring along too, yes? 
