How do police in England do their jobs without guns and a body count?

abe froman:

How do the unarmed bobbies keep England from devolving into absolute chaos and anarchy without random murder of innocents?

British police don't 'keep England from devolving into absolute chaos'...that isn't their job. They respond to disturbances of the peace in whatever form and degree of violence they take. They way you ask the question really presents the American mindset that looks for 'control' of the population by some governmental agency, but the true fact is, most of the British population control themselves by the mindset they hold. The ordinary English person isn't tooled up with an assortment of weaponry because they are confident they can go about their daily business unassailed and unfettered without fear. We don't go out armed with a 'just-in-case' paranoia mindset...it's not needed. Even when British police are on the street or driving in their cars, they are not 'controlling' anything, they are responders to crime notifications, that is all.

I think the British bobby does a very good professional job. Of course, there are a few that undermine the good efforts of the good cops, but they usually get dealt with in the end one way or another. They are certainly not killing members of the public as part of a grooming exercise to instill a sense of fear in the public like the American cops...there's no police state conditioning going on here in Britain.

You can't have a police state without first arming your national constabulary, but I would certainly agree that in America, you are well on the way to being a police state, if you are not already. They are playing with your mindset, conditioning you to respond meekly and sheepishly to authority, even when it acts unlawfully outside of its remit. America is no longer the 'Land of the Free', certainly not in the sense or principal that American people think they are...but its a nice delusion that is only rocked when you find yourself in an American cop's gun sights, which at the moment seems quite often.

reply to post by elysiumfire


I do not think the US is a police state. I think that is over exaggeration, although I agree with all you say, except that point.

The problem in the US (and I speak as non-American, but have an American sister in law and extended family in Wisconsin), is that the population accept that the police "shoot first". I think this acceptance that police kill is really detrimental to the US society.

However, the problem lies in why some police are trigger happy. It is because gun crime - regardless of the pro-gun lobby says - means that the police are running on self preservation all of the time. I imagine that if an American policeman was offered the choice of being unarmed and highly unlikely to meet someone with a gun, they would take that option. In other words, be a policeman in the UK!

Perversely it is because the average American accepts that their police are trigger happy, which allows them to get away with being trigger happy!

Regards

HI

I've not read the thread yet, but here's my thoughts.

Firstly, I'm not a massive fan of the police, in regards to the fact that they are both an entity of unswaying politics and yet also slightly open to corruption.

However to answer your question.

The UK police (I believe) have a slightly stricter vetting process in some respects. From what I've been led to believe I think some minor psychological tests may be performed during application or training.

Also, we have less of a threat of an armed populous than the UK, and what this means is - we can afford to have extremely efficient response units who are prepared such events due to it being uncommon. Also don't forget the UK, has some of the best intelligence networks in the world .

Consider the UK is much, much smaller than the US. The UK has districts and boroughs and counties, and within each, we have units that would cover various areas.... So even if a situation happened in say, Liverpool... Within 15-25 minutes (by road) we'd have Greater Manchester Police units arriving. We have helicopters for rural areas.

Our officers on the streets are generally encouraged to be healthy, alert and also willing to engage most situations with a sense of personal and lawful judgement (no heroics), with cases ranging from shoplifters to armed assailants and are given a lot of in-house training as to how best approach most situations.

Of course, the police are human and like every police officer in the world, some will be bastards and some will be ok. It's even better when you find a copper / cop who is decent and genuinely wants to help. They really are the good guys. However they are a minority.

As from my very narrow judgement of the US Police, I detect a certain level of contrast between US cops in regards to attitude and professionalism and I guess it depends on the state. Plus every officer in the states probably has an ingrained sense of paranoia due to the massive availability of guns.

Every routine traffic stop could be fatal in the US. Or every domestic dispute. Someone could pull a gun.

This explains the edginess of the US copper. Gun laws.


EDIT: I hasten to add. Some of the more heartwarming things I've seen as random acts of humanity or charity, seem to come from the US police.

abe froman
More and more often in the US our police are killing unarmed citizens in the daily course of their standard operations. Our crime rate is the lowest it's been in years and yet the body count of unarmed civilians keeps rising.
How do the unarmed bobbies keep England from devolving into absolute chaos and anarchy without random murder of innocents?

The police in Britain DO HAVE GUNS...
They have guns in Northern Ireland / enter Heathrow - they have guns.
Also all police forces have access to fire arns officers who are trigger happy and gung ho and they DO shoot innocents..

reply to post by mr-lizard

Every routine traffic stop could be fatal in the US. Or every domestic dispute. Someone could pull a gun.

This explains the edginess of the US copper. Gun laws.

^^^^ This right here hits the nail on the head...


When you have a populace that's armed to the teeth, law enforcement has no choice but to do the same.

This means then, that the citizens have to accept the good with the bad:

- The Good: American citizens get to practice their 2nd amendment rights
- The Bad: Law enforcement will then have to do the same

So in an "everyday" situation (ie: traffic stop), law enforcement must now automatically adopt the assumption that a citizen might be packing. Thus the officer approaches the vehicle with their hand resting on their holster, just in case... because they have no idea what might be sitting behind the wheel of that vehicle nor what that citizen might have in their own holster (or not).

Law enforcement has no choice but to err on the side of caution... which then eventually escalates and feeds into a paranoid state of mind... for both sides of the equation (the officer AND the citizen).

And around and around it goes.

It's a vicious circle, folks !

reply to post by abe froman


most of europe shipped their malcontents to the new world centuries ago. fidel castro wasn't the first to solve his problems by deporting his problems.

also, many law enforcement agencies give preferential hiring to combat veterans, many whom haven't received counseling on reintegrating into civilian life.

reply to post by abe froman


Judging by most of the responses on here, seems the answer is pretty clear. UK doesnt seem to want psychopaths and crimes as their business industry unlike in the US where prison is a cash cow and police are programmed to shoot first and cover up stories with propaganda. In America its also everyone for themselves and the people are terrified of each other not to mention, they will sue the pants off each other for nearly anything. The reference to HP vs LoTR is mostly right, different worlds. I rarely see daily news of shootings and crime waves in third countries, whereas US its a daily news report.

reply to post by CranialSponge


Problem in this scenario isnt whether or not the citizen is packing, but 1st the crime of suspicion, second if the cop is a model citizen or a thug with a badge. Police in US have killed a kid at the from door for packing a Wii controller.
The other condition is: are the people of UK half as mentally programmed as the US or is the populace civil and actually humanitarian instead of anything you do can and will be used against you in and out of court.
3. Criminals(real) are slapped on the wrist and left to breed their pestilence, where according to these responses in the UK no crime seems to go unpunished. And makes me wonder also if the laws in UK are meant to protect its people or enslave them.

reply to post by OtherSideOfTheCoin


We do have a national policing agency, it changes its name from time to time and currently it is known as the National Crime Agency.

I thought I'd also chime in and point out guns aren't banned in the UK, contrary to common myth. We've just never had a gun culture and even when guns were not as controlled as they are now and the Police where armed routinely, many would simply not take their weapons out with them. There was one case in the early 20th century where a robbery was taking place by some Hungarian types with guns, the Police had left their guns at the station and had to borrow a couple of pistols from members of the public!

tadaman
They don't keep order. Your streets are some of the most violent in the world. Scotland is a blood pot.

What? Reading too much Daily Fail there, I think...

tadaman
Also, our police here have some of the highest body counts in the world...for loses.

No one really cares about how many cops are shot or shot at every year. Its up there.
They need them.

Only because your citizenry is armed to the teeth and your police seem to think they are military, as they refer to citizens as "civilians". Police are civilians as well and the sooner they realise that and not in the army, the less violent things will become.

tadaman
Also, UK citizens have no trespassing areas where certain cultural and ethnic backgrounds are predominant, where any "natives" ventured in, they would be raped, killed, or just robbed and beaten.

Total BS. There are some area's where some minorities might think they are in control, but a few gangs of twatish muslims doing "sharia patrols" is nothing like what you claimed.

tadaman
So.....We need the proper tools for the work in OUR field. We don't like foreign nationals and minority groups dictating to the vast majority where they can go and what can be done in our own home.

I don't think anybody does, American's are not "special" in this regard. That said, you are clearly being influenced in your thinking by some gutter press or racist views, or both.

tadaman
If we had no guns in the hands of law enforcement .....we would be just like you....and we could celebrate our progressive ideals and advanced sense of peace....while our country was slowly taken over by animals....

God, your full of it, aren't you? I wonder if you've ever even been here and travelled around the country. Unlikely.

reply to post by elysiumfire


Well said. In a nutshell, the Police here are about "keeping the peace" as you said whereas, as we see in the US, their very description as Law enforcement Officers or LEO's shows how they perceive themselves.

HelenConway
Also all police forces have access to fire arns officers who are trigger happy and gung ho and they DO shoot innocents..

They are not "trigger happy". Mistakes happen, but as someone else pointed out earlier in the thread, 1 gun death from Police since 2011 is not bad going. They have to account for every bullet fired and justify every shot.

In the 2011-12 period, a total of 5 shots were fired in England and Wales.

5 shots!

That is out of 12,550 call outs for an ARV. So, we're talking about 1 shot being fired for every 2510 callouts. In percentage terms, that is 0.04%.

Statistics here

Hardly trigger happy, Helen. Talk about hyperbole! You should right for the Daily Mail.

reply to post by tadaman


Wow you have not been here in the UK have you?
Muslims have 4.8% of the populace and you think we are being taken over?.
The Muslims I know are born and bred here they love this country for its freedoms as much as I or anyone else here, sure their are the most vocal radicals but many Muslims born and bred here are out with me or another Brit having a drink sneaking the odd bacon butty because they taste great (in the double figures of dudes I know liking bacon who are Muslims ).
Most violent? trust me don't trust the stats it is done differently here.
Great place is the UK been to lots of different countries and lived in 6 of them and I come back here cos the people are GREAT .

Oh and Bobbies? been drunk many times and they got me home ok, had a ruck once and they gave me a kicking but I deserved it looking back and they have got me out of a few situations back when I ran pubs also partied with Murder squad dudes in the east end and they were cool.
So thumbs up to most bobby and never arms them.

boymonkey74
Oh and Bobbies? been drunk many times and they got me home ok, had a ruck once and they gave me a kicking but I deserved it looking back and they have got me out of a few situations back when I ran pubs also partied with Murder squad dudes in the east end and they were cool.
So thumbs up to most bobby and never arms them.

Quite - I've had a few run ins with the Fuzz over the years when I was a youngster (including the MoD Plod who are armed) and if you treat them with respect, you get it back, even if you are in the wrong.

When I was arrested at 18 (long story), because I was polite, waited for them to arrive and behaved myself, not only was I uncuffed in the back of the car (with 2 women officers) I was allowed to have my cell door open while in nick and could come and go as I pleased to the toilet, exercise yard etc. I even shared a smoke with the Duty Sgt while I waited for my dad to turn up.

Bottom line is, they are people too and like all people, if you're polite to them chances are they will be polite to you. They are only doing a job and are not there to judge you, that's for the funny blokes in wigs later!

How...well they only have to police under 57 million people vs. over 305 million people in the U.S.. That's a bit of a difference. Considering there are over 2.5 BILLION police/citizen encounters (DOJ stats) every year in the U.S. with an average police complaint number of 12,000 per year (with merit, not just bullsht complaints), I would say America is not as bad as the media/youtube make it out to be. If you believe what your told or hear, that means EVERY TIME a cop meets/deals with a citizen he kicks their ass or shoots them...lol..and thats just NOT the case.

Also, America is the land of the entitled, over medicated, under educated, spoiled, etc...where other countries demand more from their people, we just let leeches leech, make excuses, blame others, etc... MURICA!!!!

reply to post by IroncladFT


To truly compare based on population, you'd have to do some maths...

UK Pop: 63 Million.

Uk Police: 134,000

Police Officer to Pop ratio: 1:470

US Pop: 314 Million

US Police Officers: 780,000

Police Officer to Pop ratio: 1:402

So, we actually have less officers per head of population than the US does.

stumason

HelenConway
In the 2011-12 period, a total of 5 shots were fired in England and Wales.

5 shots!

That is out of 12,550 call outs for an ARV. So, we're talking about 1 shot being fired for every 2510 callouts. In percentage terms, that is 0.04%.

Statistics here

Hardly trigger happy, Helen. Talk about hyperbole! You should right for the Daily Mail.

edit on 13/4/14 by stumason because: (no reason given)

OH Thank you !!!!

Well out of the 5 shots they fire annually apparently, they sure manage to kill plenty of people who are innocent and cows !!
If that is 1 person a year that equals 20% of shots they fire that kill innocents !! Shocking.

edit on 13-4-2014 by HelenConway because: (no reason given)

reply to post by boymonkey74


now, I didnt say Muslim. It is interesting that you would think that though.

I am just going off what your countrymen have told me while on holiday. Its not a single conversation, but several over a couple years. I am not saying your country is descending into hell...lol, I am saying that there are already areas where natives can not go safely for the simple fact that they are natives.

ALso, I agree with what you have to say about the police. They generally are nice and treat you with respect if you do the same. That is true everywhere, even here in the US. I look at most of these videos of police using "excessive force" and think, "wow, if he had just NOT been an idiot he would just be getting a ticket, or be on his way to jail without a black eye."

Generally we are mirrors. We think police have this subservient role to us. They are fellow citizens and fellow humans. They have the same right as you to act like an idiot. SO dont.

reply to post by stumason


total reactionary BS.

reply to post by tadaman

I am saying that there are already areas where natives can not go safely for the simple fact that they are natives.

Of course, that depends on your definition of 'natives.' There are areas where you run a greater risk of being mugged and there are areas where unfamiliar faces get the screw-face and stares. That's the same just about anywhere in the world and England isn't an exception.

I lived in Toxteth for a couple of years, been through Moss Side a few times and had nights out in other media 'hotspots' like Islington and Camden. Gotta say Islington wasn't a great place but the other places were no trouble at all. Got burgled in Toxteth and they were smack-heads who'd just been released and knocked the crime rate up for a couple of weeks - white scallies.

In any of these places it was very much the criminal element of the locals who you'd need to be wary of.