How do police in England do their jobs without guns and a body count?

a reply to: ObservingYou

Blah blah - this bloody "freemen" nonsense, really..

You're splitting hairs - Officer/Constable is interchangeable in modern vernacular, but that doesn't mean the "officers" are not sworn Constables, hence why they hold the rank of "PC".

Anyhoo, I thought this "freeman" movement was based on ancient common law (and a warped version of that anyway), which pre-dates the formation of the Police and, in fact, Constables in the middle ages were entirely different things.

originally posted by: stumason
a reply to: ObservingYou

Blah blah - this bloody "freemen" nonsense, really..

You're splitting hairs - Officer/Constable is interchangeable in modern vernacular, but that doesn't mean the "officers" are not sworn Constables, hence why they hold the rank of "PC".

Anyhoo, I thought this "freeman" movement was based on ancient common law (and a warped version of that anyway), which pre-dates the formation of the Police and, in fact, Constables in the middle ages were entirely different things.

Officers enforce acts which are a form of Taxation.
Which can be bypassed by common law...
I have effectively used common law on a number of occasions to lawfully rebel.
If it has been so successful for my, why wouldn't it be for others?

I'm inhently against todays system of authority, and authority is only placed where there is consent..

Your free to have your views and methods, as I am mine.

a reply to: ObservingYou

British policing is by consent, that's a core philosophy. I guess the question is what is "consent". You may not consent to be arrested, but you will be arrested because the police have the consent of the wider public. That consent is essentially authority. Without consent the police have no authority to act on our (the publics) behalf. These are Peelian Principles.

You may not like (or give consent) for a policeman/woman/officer/constable/superintendent/etc to stop you for driving like a baboon, but the wider public do, or have given consent in other ways, including voting in politicians who set the law.

I confess to being perplexed by some of these theoretical arguments about "common law" and whether the police have certain rights, but that's what judges are for because they ultimately interpret law and set precedent. I am not sure about this "freeman" stuff either, but it does not stack up in court, so it's a bit pointless from a legal perspective.

When people post YouTube videos of loaud and shouty members of the public ranting about their rights etc., mostly the police just look baffled. People may think they sound clever, but usually they look like dickheds.

Regards

a reply to: paraphi

wow!!

I think i just read a informative post on ATS, you get a star from me dude!

a reply to: ObservingYou

All Police Constables are Police Officers

But not all Police Officers are Police Constables (some are Sergeants, or Inspectors, for example)

A Police Constable is simply a lower ranked Police Officer.

originally posted by: blupblup
reply to post by DISRAELI

 

Cowley Road?? In Oxford?

Cool

I know this famous road well also, along with adjacent iffley and st. clements.

Why my eyes lit up when i read it because actually, its a pretty creepy story!!!

originally posted by: ObservingYou
Officers enforce acts which are a form of Taxation.

This is why I love irony!

A proponent of the freeman movement, basing their idea's on ancient common law, who claims Officers are for collection of taxation who fails to note that, in those ancient times you like to base your ideas off, a Constable was, amongst other things, a tax collector!

As for the rest - there does seem to be a massive cognitive dissonance in the freeman movement about what Common Law is and how it works in the UK in conjunction with Statute Law. Another name for Common Law is Case Law - set by precedent. In a nutshell, Court's interpret the Statute Law, set precedent and this then becomes Common or Case Law. Courts even have the power to amend Law's, set by Parliament, which then turns that into a Common Law.

There seems to be this myth that Common law is some sort of magical, ancient system of rights - it isn't.

And you can "legally rebel" without having to be a Freeman - just know the Law! I have managed to avoid things before by knowing my rights and acting accordingly, it's nothing special and you did nothing special.

Elbow Grease.

They know as we all do that the criminals cannot ever really "get away" they may run but they can never hide for very long.

Why do they need guns?

In America and Canada they use them for executions,maybe they dont believe in executing people without a trial?

Maybe they value human life more than money?

If an armed Bank Robber has left the bank and all he has is the money,why would you pursue him with guns and try to engage him?

He has the money already,you didnt catch him in the act,and if you shoot him now without a trial you are murdering him ,at the very least arbitrarily executing him as a representative of the courts.

It makes no sense to engage in after the fact gunplay and after the fact high speed chases,once a suspect has been identified by photo,video or law enforcement eyewitness,or other means then high speed chases are not sanctionable.

Have you ever heard the Jokes about English peoples Teeth,which I do not endorse? Well maybe you have your explanation as to why they do not carry guns all the time.

I love the quote on the movie "Paul" when a policeman talks to the two English guys. This thread keeps reminding me of it.

"State Trooper: Where are you boys from?
Clive Gollings: ...England.
State Trooper: I heard about that place: no guns.
Graeme Willy: Not many...
Clive Gollings: No, not really, just... farmers.
State Trooper: Well how are police supposed to shoot anybody?
Graeme Willy: [Uncomfortable] Well they don't...
Clive Gollings: They- they try not to...
[the state trooper stares at them suspiciously]"

I've lived in the UK briefly and spent a good bit of time in London in 2006. I witnessed INCREDIBLE self-control and patience from UK police on many occasions, but here is an example that really stood out:

I watched after a bar-brawl was broken up as a man was screaming in a cops face and the officer simply told him to calm down and step back. "I don't want to arrest you mate", "take a walk and calm down a bit". The guy got in his face again and the cop simply gently pushed him away because the guy was literally spraying saliva on him.

Then the guys girlfriend got in on it and started yelling at the cops and the officer says "you need to take her and both of you just go home, there's no need for the two of you to go to jail tonight"

As an American, it was one of the most amazing things I've ever seen.

UK police simple see people as PEOPLE, and they don't try to exert extreme authority or make their own jobs more difficult. I know many have had bad experiences with police from ALL countries, but I sincerely have the utmost respect for UK police and how they conduct themselves.

UK police handling people with knives:
www.youtube.com...
www.telegraph.co.uk...

American cops dealing with same situation:

www.youtube.com...
www.kcra.com...#!7ae78
www.youtube.com...


The UK guys were taken ALIVE. The American ones all left in a BODYBAG.

The problem is NOT that there are more guns in the USA. The problem is how Police treat citizens in the USA.

Take it from someone who has seen it first-hand in both countries.

originally posted by: 8675309jenny
I've lived in the UK briefly and spent a good bit of time in London in 2006. I witnessed INCREDIBLE self-control and patience from UK police on many occasions, but here is an example that really stood out:

I watched after a bar-brawl was broken up as a man was screaming in a cops face and the officer simply told him to calm down and step back. "I don't want to arrest you mate", "take a walk and calm down a bit". The guy got in his face again and the cop simply gently pushed him away because the guy was literally spraying saliva on him.

Then the guys girlfriend got in on it and started yelling at the cops and the officer says "you need to take her and both of you just go home, there's no need for the two of you to go to jail tonight"

As an American, it was one of the most amazing things I've ever seen.

UK police simple see people as PEOPLE, and they don't try to exert extreme authority or make their own jobs more difficult. I know many have had bad experiences with police from ALL countries, but I sincerely have the utmost respect for UK police and how they conduct themselves.

UK police handling people with knives:
www.youtube.com...
www.telegraph.co.uk...

American cops dealing with same situation:

www.youtube.com...
www.kcra.com...#!7ae78
www.youtube.com...


The UK guys were taken ALIVE. The American ones all left in a BODYBAG.

The problem is NOT that there are more guns in the USA. The problem is how Police treat citizens in the USA.

Take it from someone who has seen it first-hand in both countries.

That's pretty much it, horses for courses. I'll easily admit that I don't like guns, they have only one purpose, they also do that easily.

a reply to: 8675309jenny

I don't believe that's something unique to the UK; I've seen the same restraint exercised by French and German policemen/women.

Personally, I think it's TOO restrained...I would like to see violent drunks booked and taken off to police cells (like they used to do).

But shooting them??

Do US police shoot argumentative drunks?

Wow.

Cultural divide.

A small minority of socialists, left wingers and handwringers don't want to see the police armed. The vast majority DO wish to see them armed at all times, myself included.

originally posted by: dmfsb
A small minority of socialists, left wingers and handwringers don't want to see the police armed. The vast majority DO wish to see them armed at all times, myself included.

???? Do you have a source for this remarkable statement? Because I've lived in the UK all my life and the sight of an armed police officer still creeps the hell out of me.

a reply to: dmfsb

I agree qith angry you are talking out of your arse.
The vast majority of police and the public do not want every copper armed.

a reply to: dmfsb

I don't know one single person who wants too see any relaxation of UK gun laws or increased arming of our police.

originally posted by: CJCrawley
a reply to: 8675309jenny

I don't believe that's something unique to the UK; I've seen the same restraint exercised by French and German policemen/women.

Personally, I think it's TOO restrained...I would like to see violent drunks booked and taken off to police cells (like they used to do).

But shooting them??

Do US police shoot argumentative drunks?

Wow.

Cultural divide.

It's unlikely they would go straight to shooting the guy, but what if what I saw had happened here in the U.S., the cops certainly would have grabbed the guy and thrown him to the ground unnecessarily, roughed him up and if he squirmed at all, they would beat him and escalate the situation quickly while screaming "STOP RESISTING!!!"

That's how it escalates to being shot very quickly. At a minimum tazed for no good reason. I've seen it multiple places. Most recently at the Sebring races (where I've seen someone get abused by the police for 4 consecutive years now).

I also have friends who have been tackled and arrested for "resisting arrest" when they were just hanging out Friday night in a parking lot (car park). It's mostly small guys they like to pick on too.

You guys don't need them because your populace appears to be compliant to order.
America IS NOT compliant we are just chaos,millions of people from every corner unleashed to be free and create new stuff.
Bobbies aren't terrified some nutball is going to hose them down with an AK before any stop or going into a house.

a reply to: cavtrooper7

Bobbies aren't terrified some nutball is going to hose them down with an AK before any stop or going into a house.

True. It's cool living in a country where the police aren't one side of an arms race between criminals and its own population.

Not many Americans are objective enough to admit it; your post should be starred for saying we've got it right in the UK

originally posted by: cavtrooper7
You guys don't need them because your populace appears to be compliant to order.
America IS NOT compliant we are just chaos,millions of people from every corner unleashed to be free and create new stuff.
Bobbies aren't terrified some nutball is going to hose them down with an AK before any stop or going into a house.

Dont give me that freedom BS there are at least half a dozen countrys far more free and apart grom gun laws theres little diffrence between us or UK .

As for creatvity? UK has even about as much as the US in the past.


So stope that star spangled propaganda bs