Is this the start of armed resistance against totalitarian government in the US?

Yeah ...getting scary... how will the U.S. Gov. handle this . I have a buddy retired marine, 30 years service...3 purple hearts, silver star bronze star...cut his benefits...in a militia of Vets. heading out there ...armed to the teeth !

buster2010

Danbones
not sure why my post above was stomped yet
( no problem mods..im not arguing...)

Anyhow it described bundy's son's arrest while peacefully demonstrating the rustling of their cattle and the infringement of their rights to protest peacefully....
it had statements to that effect from several people on both sides...but the fed side seems to be that the nail that sticks up is sure to be hammered down...

in an interview on the Alex Jones show earlier today the elder Bundy was saying they are the last of a bunch of ranchers being thusly treated, and they were saying that the BLM has killed a lot of turtles on that land...

He states that they did have grazing rights, and that the BLM are smashing up hundred year old wells, and that they had killed some cattle, and this is why they were bringing in back hoes - to bury them in mass graves.

Bundy was saying that the had "beneficial use rights" to that land.

Beneficial use is a legal term describing a person's right to enjoy the benefits of specific property, especially a view or access to light, air, or water, even though title to that property is held by another person. [1] This may also be termed "beneficial enjoyment". Black's Law Dictionary (2nd Pocket ed. 2001 pg. 236.

Compare this with a "beneficial interest", where a beneficiary has an interest in a thing ("res" Res (disambiguation)) (such as a trust or estate) but does not own the underlying property. Black's Law Dictionary (2nd Pocket ed. 2001 pg. 64. This usually entitles the beneficiary to some of the income from the underlying property.

Also, compare this to beneficial owner where specific property rights ("use and title") in equity belong to a person even though legal title of the property belongs to another person. Black's Law Dictionary (2nd Pocket ed. 2001 pg.

en.wikipedia.org...

Did you read what you posted from wiki? No where in it does it say that beneficial use includes letting cattle graze on it. Only light, air, or water grass isn't covered. You are only allowed to walk on the land and if there is water to drink from it that is all.

edit on 10-4-2014 by buster2010 because: (no reason given)

The fight involves a 600,000-acre area under BLM control called Gold Butte, near the Utah border. The vast and rugged land is the habitat of the protected desert tortoise, and ranchers whose cattloe graze there must pay fees. Bundy, a descendant of Mormons who settled in Bunkerville more than 140 years ago, claims an inherent right to graze the area and casts the conflict as a states' rights issue. He said he doesn't recognize federal authority on land that he insists belongs to Nevada.

““This is a lot bigger deal than just my cows,” Bundy told FoxNews.com. “It’s a statement for freedom and liberty and the Constitution.”

No cow justifies the atmosphere of intimidation which currently exists nor the limitation of constitutional rights that are sacred to all Nevadans.”
- Nevada Gov. Brian Sandoval
Both Gov. Brian Sandoval and Sen. Dean Heller have condemned the BLS for what they characterize as heavy-handed actions involving Bundy and other Silver State residents.
utfb.fb.org...

maybe the feds don't have the right on state land

727Sky
So from what I have read from this thread and other sources.
The Turtles eat cow poop and derive their moisture from said poop.. The whole turtle thing is just a touchy feelie feel good cover story...
The BLM was using the backhoe and dump truck to destroy water tanks and piping. Water is a big deal in a desert.
The land is/has been leased for oil exploration (should have not interfered with the cattle operation most cattle do not like loud drilling rigs and trucks going to and fro to a rig IMO)..
Rancher stopped paying the amount the Gov says he is to pay for access
Many people in that region are already pissed at the government for various reasons so IMO they did not need much of a cause to latch onto. One article I read said 25 ranchers (some say 53) had been put out of business due to BLM/government regs..?
BLM is separating (according to the rancher's son) caves from their birth mothers.. It has been 90f so the caves without mom's milk will only last about a day... Even running the cows via ATVs or helicopters for extended times in that heat will kill many.
Right or wrong the militias may get in an armed conflict with BLM and other federal agencies.. Presently mostly talk and shoving and let us hope it stays that way.. However, no matter what side you are on, a fact of life is, power does come from the barrel of a gun/taser/brute force after all the shouting and paperwork has been exhausted.
Did I miss anything?

that was pretty succinct
just that the state may own the land not so the feds
and the water rights
what about the fracking that will soon screw up their water table?

also i see the word mormon
there is also the religious angle...

there are similar beefs going on in Utah

The ski industry and western ranchers have found something in common. The federal government through the United States Forest Service wants both their water. Last year, when the Forest Service issued new rules demanding ski resorts operating on forest permits hand over part or all of their water to the United States or risk losing their permits, the resorts cried foul – and sued!

Ownership of water originating on federal lands has been in a long running battle and the catalyst for government claims and lawsuits across the West. Livestock producers have been embroiled in philosophical and legal battles for generations. Grazing and the ability to put historic livestock water rights to beneficial use are tied directly to access and the grazing permits issued by the federal government agencies.
However, according to Nevada Federal District Court Judge Robert C. Jones, anybody who is of school age or older knows “the history of the Forest Service in seeking reductions in AUMs (Animal Unit Months) and even elimination of cattle grazing during the last four decades.”

utfb.fb.org...

mormons prolly go pretty close to the top of the food chain in DC
and if christians get involved as christians...
and if vets are getting involved as vets...

i see several potential fracture lines

I do not know but it does not look good, for us...the citizens


My first thought was that this was a diversion from something else, gather people here all the while something else is going on under our nose, however I see nothing on the news about this at all, which would make a diversion tactic unlikely. Now I have a roku only and nbc, cbs, and fox news only plays snippets so am I missing this on the regular cable news? is it all over or are they trying to keep it quiet?

Remember the Native Americans, they originally owned this land and were pushed off it too, what did they do? Some took a stand, but not enough. In fact sadly many tribes let the government pull the old "divide and conquer" tactic. This is their preferred strategy, they are doing it again to us right now.


Right now the government is hogging up all the land, buying out (taking) all property worth anything and trying to put everyone into denser areas or perhaps i should say "reservations" to drive the point across, we will be easier to control that way, same as the Natives. First and foremost people need stop being divided right now, it's like that game we use to play "red rover, red rover, send johnny boy over". Those who stood strong together fared well, those who did not had their chains broke. People, you need to stop being divided over politics, race, sex, I admit I allowed it too, but it must stop.

I feel for this guy and his family, this is more than a shame why have we allowed it to get this bad? I do not want my children to know what a revolution looks like, but I want them to know freedom. Where is the state authorities? Why are they not helping ?

reply to post by brandiwine14


it looked like the state LEOs which are often federalized these days are helping the feds...
but the state Governor spoke out against the heavy handedness.

reply to post by Mamatus

Bundy is and has for all intents and purposes been living on foreclosed land.

Star for the correct usage of the phrase "all intents and purposes".

Everyone has a pet peeve. Mine is people saying/writing "for all intensive purposes".

Makes me want to scream every time I see it.

Your points re: OP are also well taken although I take a longer/broader view. It's an unholy mess regardless of which side you support. At some point, there will be a necessary conflagration that spurs great change. I don't think this is it, so therefore any/all suffering is wasted.

But it's coming...

The gov't has greatly underestimated the degree to which many of their citizens are seething.

well, looks like my guess about fracking was correct
www.abovetopsecret.com...
and here are the patriots and oath keepers...and a cattle call
www.abovetopsecret.com...

and about my use of the word totalitarian
the fracking makes this a corporate fascist issue which is considered rightwing totalitarianismand
the bit about the turtles is of course a lie

Danbones
well, looks like my guess about fracking was correct
www.abovetopsecret.com...
and here are the patriots and oath keepers...and a cattle call
www.abovetopsecret.com...

and about my use of the word totalitarian
the fracking makes this a corporate fascist issue which is considered rightwing totalitarianismand
the bit about the turtles is of course a lie

edit on Thupm4b20144America/Chicago33 by Danbones because: (no reason given)

A little more on those poor turtles:

Until 1934, disagreements over the land were not adjudicated. The “Taylor Grazing Act,” signed by President Franklin Roosevelt, set up districts for grazing on public land, and issued permits to ranchers for a more orderly process.

However, those permits for the majority of Clark County—including the permit for the Bundy Ranch—were transferred in 1998 to the Habitat Conservation Plan to protect the desert tortoise.

The tortoise is protected under the Endangered Species Act. However, Goicoechea says they don’t need any protecting, citing a recently passed Nevada regulation that imposed a one tortoise limit per person to “reduce the overbreeding and proliferation of unwanted pet desert tortoises.”

“People will get two or three of ‘em and all of a sudden they come home one night and you’ve got 15 of ‘em,” Goicoechea said. “I guess they’re diggy little boogers, they go under sidewalks and patios. So tortoises were causing damage in their neighbors’ yards.”

“We’re talking about an endangered species that in fact went out there and removed all these people off the public lands under the intent of protecting that desert tortoise,” he said.

“They have adapted, and they’re doing very well.”

The Fish and Wildlife Service lists the species as “threatened.”

freebeacon.com...

reply to post by 727Sky


poor turtles..err, i hate trying to spell tortises

i wonder no wild horses or cows poop to eat and drink
howsoever shall they thrive now?

town hall meeting...I'll let them do the talking

"they will fire the first shot heard round the world, and we will fire the rest"

reply to post by Danbones


WOW.

i think regardless if shots are fired or not, its only a matter of time

funny in one of cliff highs predictions heavy handed treatment of just such a waco like situation was the spark that set the powder keg off and that songs would be written about it after wards...

the song thats writing itself in my head is about to be called powderkeg and the punch line is going to be:

powderkeg (war drums and a "martial" stack )
"they might fire the next first shot heard round the world, but we will fire the rest"
just picture war drums and a "martial" stack
you'll get the idea

I'd like to make my second prediction on ATS, which I'm pretty sure will keep my success ratio at 100%.

Nothing will come of this. At all. A deal will be reached.

reply to post by khimbar

sure...lets hope
but that won't change the agenda in the long run and now everybody knows it

reply to post by seeker1963

I do agree with you though on the point of being idiotic for a person to post that on youtube!!! Perhaps it is an agent provocateur that works for the government that put it up there?

Perhaps.

Perhaps not.

By making VERY public any plan of action of this type, that is in resistance to unreasonable or illegal government behaviour is a good sign, and one that sends all the right messages to all parties.

That message is;

We want you to know fully that we are taking a stand, be under no illusions what you're doing will be tolerated and allowed to carry on according to your plan, you will be opposed and with violence if absolutely necessary.

It also says, we sincerely don't want it to come to that. We are telling you, up front that we are not planning an ambush, we don't want to hurt our fellow Americans, but we will do if it is the only way to protect our fellow American citizens.

It's a good tactic, it shows these people are there to protect the rights of a Citizen, not go wacko on feds simply to go wacko on feds.

reply to post by raedar



From what I am getting they are not booting this man off land he owns. A rancher owns their land. This one apparently decided to be a rancher without purchasing any land to put his cattle on - or pay any rents - or anything else.

He's a squatter. What would you do if someone came on land you owned and started running a business on it, refusing to either leave or pay you a dime for its use?

I'd call the cops is what I would do... well it looks like the cops showed up. I don't like squatters. If he doesn't own this land he has no rights to run his cattle there.

reply to post by OpinionatedB

Hello B
perhaps you may have to note the posts earlier regarding rights of use and the fracking agenda being perpetrated through other states
obviously from observing the support from the other folks you have to figure those close to the action must have an informed opinion on these matters.

i hope you watched the video that i just posted
that is in THEIR words

reply to post by MrSpad

Totally agree. And here is THE REAL SOURCE OF THE WHOLE PROBLEM: Lazy stupid immoral people voting other lazy stupid immoral people into office, and then KEEPING those same people in office year after (by the way, I get out there and vote every year, but there is not a single clown performing the circus today that got a vote from me. ) Basically, as a people if we stopped electing morally bankrupt criminals, that would solve ninety percent of our social and economic problems.

reply to post by OpinionatedB


The Bundy's own thousands of acres. They acquired it in the 1870s, long before the BLM ever existed. At some point the grazing land became declared Public Land (state land) and then around 1996 the BLM decided to start charging him grazing fees.

He has been fighting the grazing fees because they go to the Federal Government, and his stand is that if it is Public Land, it should go to the state. He refuses to pay the feds.

Sorry, he's not a squatter.

Check out some of the interviews with him. He has a point. Why would they not use the court system? The have snipers training their guns on an unarmed family. How is that ok for a debt?

I hope that makes sense. People are tired of the overreach of the Feds.

Here's a great interview with Clive Bundy from yesterday. I hope you'll listen to his side.