hey! we have something in common. i am a 20 year old male who also did not go on a mission. at times of my life i have even thought of suicide. but now i realize that if anybody is trying to guilt trip me, they themselves are guilty. i do not deny that the people who have ridiculed you are wrong. the problem with Utah is population density. everybody is mormon, and expects everybody else to at least be familiar with mormonism, they forget that it is just a church and should be kept in church. not at school, not in the grocery store etc. when too many people that are alike congregate, the outsider will always feel akward. the 'insiders' might even ridicule and shun, but that is their problem as individuals, not as a group.

ridiculed endlessly by family, and shunned by friends.

my point is, even if the bad (or judgemental) mormons out-populate the good, that doesn't mean the church had anything to do with it. those people got carried away and cultish and proud on their own. the church didnt tell them to do so.

however yes, i agree with you. the mormon-culture can be rather snobbish to outsiders. that is one of my main problems with it. i am disgusted by it in fact, but its just the culture - not the church and its teachings.

Originally posted by lost
tell us, what happens when the 19-21 year old male chooses not to fufill his requirement to go on a mission? -nothing i assure you.

Originally posted by lost
i am a 20 year old male who also did not go on a mission. at times of my life i have even thought of suicide.

This is starting to get a bit too personal for this forum I think. But if you look at your above two statements, do they not seem the least bit contradictory to you? I understand that you would blame the people and not the Church itself for trying to make you feel guilty, but I think if you really do some research you'll find that the Church conditions people to think this way. I suppose they might not do it purposefully, but Mormons are conditioned to lay the guilt trip on people.

I'm sure I lived in a place where the Mormon population was greater, because I lived in the town with the highest ratio of Mormons to non-Mormons in the world. This, of course, is a bit of a different situation than yours I'm sure. I lived in a place where one time, when I didn't show up to church because I was sick that Sunday, the other boys in my Deacon's quorum BROKE INTO MY HOUSE and tried to drag me to Sunday school. It's a different world in Utah, and I'm sure it was different whereever you're from. But the fact is, Mormons are conditioned to look down on the non-believers, and conditioned to lay a guilt trip on people like you and me.

You can say, "Well, nobody can make you feel guilty except yourself." Tell that to the men who killed themselves because they couldn't be Mormons and be themselves. If you run a search on Google there's horror stories aplenty of gay Mormons killing themselves, early-return missionaries killing themselves, and other such stories.

And I don't know how easy it was for you to leave the Mormon Church, but it was one of the hardest things I've ever done. Abandoning everything I've ever believed in and suddenly being completely lost, (like your nickname), was almost the end for me. I was so dependant on the Church that when I no longer relied on it I had no where to turn. And I know I'm not alone in this because you can go on the internet and find entire websites dedicated to "recovering Mormons". If you want some sob stories there's plenty of them on Google using those two key words.

Originally posted by an3rkist
Also, watch the movie "Galaxy Quest". It was written by Mormons and has a lot of Mormon alliteration. (Does that word mean what I think it means?) ~snip~

Nope, it means something else. Alliteration is a repetitive sound in 2 or more words, as in Millions of mormon minions must meet, marry and multiply. ;-)


[edit on 26-11-2004 by tjack]

Originally posted by tjack

Nope, it means something else. Alliteration is a repetitive sound in 2 or more words, as in Millions of mormon minions must meet, marry and multiply. ;-)

Oh, I should've looked it up before I used it. It sounded good though! Thanks for letting me know!

an3rkst says:

"How about Kolob? Not to long ago the Church taught all it's members about Kolob, the planet on which God resides on right now..."

Actually, according the Book of Abraham, Kolob was that star nearest to where God was.

And the hymn, I believe, is still in the hymnal.

Originally posted by Off_The_Street
an3rkst says:

"How about Kolob? Not to long ago the Church taught all it's members about Kolob, the planet on which God resides on right now..."

Actually, according the Book of Abraham, Kolob was that star nearest to where God was.

And the hymn, I believe, is still in the hymnal.

Taken from the Book of Abraham in The Pearl of Great Price
AND I, Abraham, had the Urim and Thummim, which the Lord my God had given unto me, in Ur of the Chaldees;
And I saw the stars, that they were very great, and that one of them was nearest unto the throne of God; and there were many great ones which were near unto it;

And the Lord said unto me: These are the governing ones; and the name of the great one is Kolob, because it is near unto me, for I am the Lord thy God: I have set this one to govern all those which belong to the same order as that upon which thou standest.

I apologize for my mistake, as I said before they stopped teaching Mormons about Kolob, and so I was never taught about it, I just know what I read, and I guess I read a little too much into it. It's still something of a controversial subject, in my opinion, if for no other reason than that the Mormon Church doesn't teach about it anymore. As far as the hymn goes? I don't have a hymn book on hand, but if it IS still in there, it would amaze me because sixteen years in the Church I never once even HEARD of the song. It was only after I left that I knew there was a hymn about it. Sure, I don't know every hymn in the book, but I think it's still a valid point.

Although you might want to read that chapter more in depth, (Abraham 3:3-16 of The Pearl of Great Price)it's quite interesting. Very stange, actually.

[edit on 26-11-2004 by an3rkist]

I've never been on a Mission, and no one shuns me. Maybe it's because I'm Lutheran who's both an ex-atheist and Recovering Catholic.

Mormon Humor part II. A ex-hippie convert explains: "I got LDS and LSD mixed up and went on a mission instead of a trip!"

On the power of the Prophet. When it comes to temporal power "Ordained by God", I don't see much difference between Gordon B. Hinckley and Karol Wojtyla, except that more people know Karol Wojtyla; and President Hinckley has a much better sense of humor.

I play in a bluegrass band, and am the only non-Member there. We have played fund-raisers at my old church, where we did a concert, raised about $5000, and then the other four guys (who played for free, of course) digged into their jeans and wrote quite respectable donations themselves. Our pastor, after taking the money, said that he didn't feel all that comfortable about having "non-Christian cultists" playing at his church. I left immediately, never to return.

When we play at my present church, and when we play at the other guys' wards, we make a big deal about the mixed band, and tie in the four-Mormons-and-one-Lutheran makeup into our shtick. The first time we did "Old White Republican Mormons from Mesa" (which, BTW, will be the title cut on our second CD) a Regional Authority (he's a guy that calls Stake Presidents) literally slid out of his chair laughing. I like a religion that can laugh, especially at themselves.

As I mentioned before, I don't buy a lot of LDS theology, the the people are the best neighbors and friends I've ever had.

Originally posted by Off_The_Street
...I like a religion that can laugh, especially at themselves.

As I mentioned before, I don't buy a lot of LDS theology, the the people are the best neighbors and friends I've ever had.

From my past experiences I would like to say that Mormons ARE the nicest people I've ever met, because when I was a devout Mormon they treated me with great respect, and I had a countless number of very good friends. However, the way that they reacted when I decided to change my beliefs totally changed my mind about how "friendly" they are. And I'm not saying they're not friendly, because as a whole they are a friendly bunch of people. (A generalization and even a stereotype.) But when push comes to shove, they treated me like straight...crap, simply because I chose not to believe the same things they believed. Now, I still have a lot of respect for many of those people, simply because I have been in there shoes. I used to be one of them. I did the same things they are doing, and so I can't necessarily blame them. But this conversation has strayed from talking about the Mormon church to talking about the Mormon people. I think they're a great bunch of people, after all every one in my family, (Mormons are famous for having HUGE families), IS Mormon. I am the only one out of all my many brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles, cousins, parents, grandparents, great aunts and great uncles, and beyond that is NOT a Mormon. And I love my family. But the people are not the subject at hand, it's the organization of the church itself that I have an issue with.

[edit on 26-11-2004 by an3rkist]

Okay here is a question. I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints...quite a new member if it is pertinent, and I have only gone to a Sunday service thrice in that time because of transportation problems and the fact that I will not hide that I break the Word of Wisdom. Now the question is: Is the Word of Wisdom, honestly, pertinent to being a member of the Church and to reach the Celestial Glory? Or is it just something the Church felt would be good at controlling membership? Also, I am devout, in my own quirky way, but I also am a practitioner of Wicca which is not contraditory to Mormon Doctrine in "much" dogma...should I feel guilt about not going, or for being devout to my Wiccan heritage while being a Mormon?

Originally posted by LomionArannahs
Okay here is a question. I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints...quite a new member if it is pertinent, and I have only gone to a Sunday service thrice in that time because of transportation problems and the fact that I will not hide that I break the Word of Wisdom. Now the question is: Is the Word of Wisdom, honestly, pertinent to being a member of the Church and to reach the Celestial Glory? Or is it just something the Church felt would be good at controlling membership? Also, I am devout, in my own quirky way, but I also am a practitioner of Wicca which is not contraditory to Mormon Doctrine in "much" dogma...should I feel guilt about not going, or for being devout to my Wiccan heritage while being a Mormon?

LomionArannahs this is a bit more of a personal subject if you want to u2u me or one of these other people about it. But since you asked publicly I guess it doesn't matter. Your geographic location may make your situation slightly different from mine, but I doubt it. The Word of Wisdom is most definitely pertinent to being a Mormon and moving on to the Celestial Kingdom. I'm sure if you ask your Bishop he can help you with these questions, but anyway. The thing I found about the Mormon church is that if you don't follow every single rule to the tee than they think you're wrong. The Word of Wisdom is pretty important I'm sure, although it's not at all an unrepentable sin, as far as Mormons go.

Attending church can be a pain. However, if you want to be a "devout" Mormon, you must attend VERY often. You may notice that in every Sacrament meeting one of the clerks has the task of walking through and making a list of either how many people are there, or the names of who is not there, or possibly the names of new faces. When getting interviewed for your Temple Recommend, which you need in order to go in the Temple and perform anything from Baptisms for the Dead, to Endowments, to Sealings and marriages, one of the questions you must answer is if you attend regular services. It's pretty important to them that you attend.

As for practicing Wicca, I'm not sure how much you read into it, but I'm almost positive that any Mormon leader would frown upon it, if not outright recommend you for excommunication you if refused to give up The Craft. And if I was you, just a little advice, I wouldn't let any of the Mormons in your ward find out you practice Wicca. It could lead to some very bad things. Mormons, especially the women, tend to be very gossipy, and I'm sure it won't be a secret for long if you tell the wrong person. If you're going to tell ANYone in your church I would recommend your Bishop, but be prepared for him to say you can't take the Sacrament, can't get a Temple Recommend, and that you must give it up right now. Not to mention, that although he is supposed to be trusted, and my Bishop was trustworthy for me, I've heard some bad stories of Bishop's not keeping the meetings and confessions a secret.

If you need more help, if I didn't answer your question enough, or if you have any other questions/problems, please feel free to u2u me.

[edit on 27-11-2004 by an3rkist]

Originally posted by LomionArannahs
should I feel guilt about not going, or for being devout to my Wiccan heritage while being a Mormon?

I wanted to address this part separately because it's very important to me. DON"T EVER LET ANYONE, ESPECIALLY MORMONS MAKE YOU FEEL GUILTY FOR ANYTHING! There's literally hundreds if not thousands of stories on the internet of people committing suicide because of the guilt they felt that was brought on them by fellow Mormons. I'm sure these Mormons have their hearts in the right place and just want you to be doing what they think is the right thing, but they are INFAMOUS for laying the guilt trip on heavier on their own people than any other group of people in the entire world. The Mormons may, and probably do, consider these things you do wrong, but you should only do what YOU think is right. You can be a Mormon and do these things, you just might have to hide them, make up excuses constantly, and be prepared to deal with the people that I guarantee you will try and "help" you. So in answer to your question, NO YOU SHOULD NOT FEEL GUILT for it unless you honestly believe it's wrong. If you DON'T believe it's wrong, then in my opinion you joined the wrong religion, but that's for you to decide.

[edit on 27-11-2004 by an3rkist]

Making my response into a differnet thread as it differs from the topic, I really want feedback, and it was stuck on the third page. I hope this doesn't violate any policies and if it does tell me so I can rectify it.

[edit on 27-11-2004 by jukyu]