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Mormonism

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posted on Nov, 25 2004 @ 10:07 PM
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Okay, I guess I use the Boolean search thingie wrong, because when I typed in "mormon" it came up with zilch, even when I used a second word "for effectiveness". Then I typed up a whole topic about Mormonism, only to press "Post New Topic" and find out the subject of my topic was already being used, and when I pressed the back button I lost the entire topic I had written
Then I did a little scanning through all the topics and found one thread about Mormons that was written months and months ago I think.

So anyway, I was wondering why the Mormon religion hasn't been discussed at length at all in this forum. I mean, as a former Mormon and conspiracy theorist I think I am fairly knowledgeable on the subject, and I think they are a subject of extreme controversy. (I use the term "former Mormon" very loosely, because technically I'm still Mormon
but I won't get into that in this thread.)

Is there a reason why so little has been discussed on the subject of Mormons? In my opinion they are possibly more controversial than the Masons, (although one of the controversies is about the correlation between the Mormons and the Masons, and I'm not just talking about the similarites in symbolism and rituals). Or did I just completely miss a bunch of threads about Mormons in my haste to start my own thread about them?




posted on Nov, 25 2004 @ 10:12 PM
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Congratulations on your attempts to use the ATS Search facility, which plagues many people.

I remember some good healthy discussions about Mormonism that included some positively contributing members of that church.

What makes something "controversial" and how you would assess whether Mormons or Freemasons are more controversial is beyond me. There is nothing really to preclude a Mormon being a Mason or vice versa.

You would enjoy reading the previous discussions - did you look in the Post content as well as Subject? Try Mormon and Witness (for Jehovah's Witness) as both were covered in the thread I recall best...



posted on Nov, 25 2004 @ 10:19 PM
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I'm a Lutheran, but I live in the largest LDS city in the world, so most of my friends are members of the Church. I consider myself fairly well read on church doctrine (having read most of McConkie, as well as the Standard Works).

Although Church doctrine is as different from mainstream protestantism as Baha'i is from Islam, and although the church's early history (up until, say the Great Accomodation of 1890) was a bit outre, I don't think the Church today is really all that controversial -- except to conspiracy theorists, to which even lemon meringue pie is controversial.

[edit on 25-11-2004 by Off_The_Street]



posted on Nov, 25 2004 @ 10:23 PM
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We have a post search? I tried to find it the other day but couldn's where is it Masked Avatar I would find it highly useful. Sorry to get off topic.

Ive always had an intresting stnace on the mormon religion. It seemd funny to me but the people in it were always really freindly and nice so i never gave it much thought. I just said hey they are good people why bother them? But surely on a board like this it would have been covered before. they have hundreds of threds here on christanity, islam, jews, and other lesser denominations, and i havent seen a mormon one.

I would really like to meet a converted mormon. Someone who was part of another religion and converted to mormonisim. If you could give a at least small summary of what the religion actually believes in it would be greatly appreicated. Ive been intrested in them but never knew. please help educate my ignorance



posted on Nov, 25 2004 @ 10:29 PM
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1. Click Search in the menu bar to activate the Boolean search facility.
2. Select "Search Posts Only" as your objective in the "Search For Matches In" field.



posted on Nov, 25 2004 @ 10:38 PM
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Well, the problem, I think, is that the Mormon Church has gone to great lengths to hide anything controversial about their beliefs. It's a fact that as soon as something controversial was blown slightly out of proportion, the Mormon Church brushed away whatever was controversial, often by "revelation from God".

Blacks were not allowed to receive the Priesthood up until a few decades ago, when the government started putting pressure on the Church to change that rule. Then the Prophet of the Church said God told him blacks were now allowed to receive the Priesthood.

Or how about polygamy? Polygamy was allowed in the Church up until they decided they wanted Utah to receive it's Statehood. The United States government wouldn't make Utah a state until they got rid of polygamy. Well God spoke to the Prophet at just the right time and said polygamy was now a SIN! (Today if you are a polygamist in the Mormon church and they find out they excommunicate you.) (Also, I may post a thread later on how the Mormons believe that some day before the Second Coming polygamy will be brought back, because it will be the only way that EVERYone who needs to be Saved will be able to).

The Mormon Temple rituals used to consist of two things that have since been removed due to people outside the Church being offended by it. One of those things was a prayer in which everyone kneeled in a circle and promised to "avenge the martyrdom of Joseph Smith." The other was a motion you would do with your arm, dragging your thumb from ear to the other across your neck, while simultaneously saying that if you ever told anyone the "sacred" signs and tokens you were being given you would die by your throat being cut open. And later you would do a similar motion across your stomach, stating the same thing but saying you would die by having your innards spilt. Or something to that effect. These are two things that used to be Temple rituals but have since been removed. The current rituals themselves are fairly controversial in my opinion.

How about Kolob? Not to long ago the Church taught all it's members about Kolob, the planet on which God resides on right now, waiting for the Millenium. There was even a hymn entitled "If You Could Hie To Kolob" that they don't sing very often anymore, that they may have even gotten rid of. As soon as people thought they were "weird" because they believed God lived on a planet called Kolob, they started pushing that belief into the backs of their minds. The younger generations of Mormons don't even know what Kolob is!

And let's not forget the fact that Mormon Church believes that just before Armageddon, the "United States Constituion will dissolve, and the Saints will be the ones to save it." That was a paraphrase, but not at all far from the exact quote. Is it not controversial that the Mormon Church believes it will one day take over the United States government?

And the immense vault they keep geneology records in? I have my suspicions about that, too.

And the Mormon/Mason relation is a controversy unto itself.

And let's not forget that the Mormon Church is the fastest growing and RICHEST religion in the world.

I spent sixteen years of my life devoting myself to the Mormon religion, only to one day realize I didn't believe in what they were teaching me. Today I think they have controversy written all over them.



posted on Nov, 25 2004 @ 10:42 PM
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My best friend Gary converted to Mormonism when he was in his early 20s. He'd married an LDS girl but she and her family were inactive. He took to it like a duck to water, and, at the age of 47, has five kids, the youngest of whom is a senior in high school. His three older daughters all attended BYU, his son went on a Mission, and Gary and his wife have held increasingly more responsible Church posts. She was recently released as President of the Relief Socity, and Gary was called as bishop four months ago.

Gary's certainly no ignoramus; although married at 18, he and his wife put him through undergraduate and medical school (he's a pediatrician).

We spend a lot of time together, since our wives give us kitchen passses two or three times a year to go play at bluegrass festivals and go to concerts (neither of them like bluegrass much).

Although I disagree with a lot of the LDS doctrine, I certainly have a lot of respect for the people who practice it. Contrary to what you might've heard, most of the Mormons I know aren't clannish, and we go to their dinner parties, they come to ours; we sometimes do things like family campouts and ski weekends, etc. Outside of the fact that I don't serve alcohol to my LDS friends (which isn't that big of a deal, since neither my wife nor I drink that much) there isn't much difference in the day-to-day activity.

If' you're interested in the way they think, I'd suggest you borrow a series of books called "The Work and the Glory" by Gerald Lund; it's propaganda, but you do get some great insights into their history.

If you're a science-fiction fan, one of the greatest S-F writers alive today is a devout Mormon, who wrote a science-fantasy series called "The Homecoming" which is a re-write of the first part of the Book of Mormon. Check out Orson Scott Card; in addition to his mainstream science fiction (like "Ender's Game"), he has written some Church-oriented fiction and essays as well.



posted on Nov, 25 2004 @ 10:45 PM
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Originally posted by Mizar
I would really like to meet a converted mormon. Someone who was part of another religion and converted to mormonisim. If you could give a at least small summary of what the religion actually believes in it would be greatly appreicated. Ive been intrested in them but never knew. please help educate my ignorance


Well Mizar, to sum up the Mormon religion's beliefs would be near impossible to do. I hate to say it, but one of the best summaries ever made was by South Park. Go see the episode "All About the Mormons" I think it's called. I know it sounds weird because it's South Park, but they actually did a fairly good job of describing their beliefs accurately. Even when I was a Mormon I was impressed with it.

As for meeting someone who used to be a different religion and converted to Mormonism, you wouldn't be at all hard-pressed to find one. As the fastest-growing religion in the world there's plenty out there. You can call your local Ward, (listed in the phone book under Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, I would assume), and ask them to refer you to a convert, or have them send some missionaries to your door. I must warn you, though, whether you ask for missionaries or not, they'll most likely send some. They're mostly very friendly people, though. My whole family is still Mormon, and I only recently left the Mormon church. They are famous for being very friendly, and I'm sure any Mormon will be more than happy to help you find someone to talk to.



posted on Nov, 25 2004 @ 10:47 PM
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Well, there goes the Temple Recommend!!



posted on Nov, 25 2004 @ 10:55 PM
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If you have serious questions or concerns about mormonism and their doctrine - I suggest Deconstructor's site - Link

If you are somewhat familiar with the religion but are curious about certain practices - go here

If you still have questions about the doctrine, practices or ceremonies - you can U2U me directly.

Bleys



posted on Nov, 25 2004 @ 10:56 PM
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Aren't there over-zealots and extremists in one form or another in all religions?

Why must one single out the members of The Church of Jesus Chreist of Latter-Day Saints as being part of a cult?

In the days when Jesus Christ himself was ministering to followers in the Palestine, he was marked as being "different" and ridiculed by the then powerful religious leaders as "rocking the boat" of their beliefs and doctrines.

For this, he was crucified!

Isn't it peculiar that all forms of religions are accepted in the eyes of the world except the Mormon religion?

What's wrong there? Maybe it could be that they are the true church and Satan will stop at nothing to destroy the Father in Heaven and His Son's work!



posted on Nov, 25 2004 @ 10:59 PM
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Also, watch the movie "Galaxy Quest". It was written by Mormons and has a lot of Mormon alliteration. (Does that word mean what I think it means?) Or you can u2u me any questions you have about the Mormons, Sixteen years as a devout Mormon I think I know atleast a thing or two about them.


The Work and The Glory Series? Whew!
You gotta have a lot of time on your hands to read those! My grandma is obsessed with them, (she's one of my favorite Mormon people
) They're some big books. If you're just looking for a summary of the religion I wouldn't recommend those. (I haven't read them, though). You'd probably be better off finding someone who is Mormon and just asking. Or like I said, you can u2u me any specific questions you have. I am biased against them now, but I'll answer any doctrinal/belief questions you have about them without tossing any biases in along with it. I probably know as much if not more than your average Mormon, since when I DID believe it I studied all the scriptures, and did everything I was supposed to do and stuff.


P.S. Mormon Humor: My body is a Temple, and you don't have a recommend!

[edit on 25-11-2004 by an3rkist]



posted on Nov, 25 2004 @ 11:11 PM
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Originally posted by Intelearthling
Aren't there over-zealots and extremists in one form or another in all religions?


yes.



Originally posted by Intelearthling
Why must one single out the members of The Church of Jesus Chreist of Latter-Day Saints as being part of a cult?


I can't speak for anyone else, but I single them out because I was a Mormon for 16 years of my life. I've never been a member of any other religion. I've studied other religions, but the Mormon religion is the only one I KNOW. And I don't believe anyone in this thread referred to them as a cult. In my opinion organized religion itself is a mistake. I would single other eligions out, too, if I knew more about them. Catholocism was considered a cult when it first started, too, and now look at it!

I hate to quote a Kevin Smith movie, (although it is one of my favorites), but in the movie "Dogma" the 13th apostle, played by Chris Rock, says, "...mankind got it all wrong by taking a good idea and building a belief structure on it." I think organized religion is a mistake, not JUST Mormonism.




Originally posted by Intelearthling
Isn't it peculiar that all forms of religions are accepted in the eyes of the world except the Mormon religion?


I think I'm not the only person who would disagree with this statement.


Originally posted by Intelearthling
Maybe it could be that they are the true church and Satan will stop at nothing to destroy the Father in Heaven and His Son's work!


It's a possibility!



posted on Nov, 25 2004 @ 11:22 PM
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Thanks for the info

The sputh park eppsoide you speak of ive seen it and i was perty sure that they got the details right. But i have to admit one of the greatest lessons ive leard came from that eppiode. the morman boys speach at the end. he summarised about everything i want to tell people when they insult my happiness.




posted on Nov, 25 2004 @ 11:31 PM
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Originally posted by an3rkist

Originally posted by Intelearthling
Isn't it peculiar that all forms of religions are accepted in the eyes of the world except the Mormon religion?


I think I'm not the only person who would disagree with this statement.


I believe what I'm trying to say with my statement is that people will pay little attention when it comes to a large variety of religions, but mention Mormon, then it's on, if you catch my drift!



[edit on 25/11/04 by Intelearthling]



posted on Nov, 25 2004 @ 11:36 PM
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Originally posted by Intelearthling

I believe what I'm trying to say with my statement is that people will pay little attention when it comes to a large variety of religions, but mention Mormon, then it's on, if you catch my drift!


I agree with the fact that Mormons are given very little leeway on any subject. As a Mormon I used to try and defend our religion to no end, which Mormons are actually told NEVER to argue with ANYone about religion.

But now as a non-Mormon I wonder if maybe there's good reason for them not getting very much leeway.



posted on Nov, 26 2004 @ 01:26 AM
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I had the pleasure of talking to two Mormons recently. They knocked on my door and they were so nice that I couldn't just send them away, so I talked with them. I thought it was interesting. I have a general knowledge now of their faith.

What I found really odd is that he said they still have prophets. There are people who call themselves Prophets of God and who decide every year what is God's will, sort of adapt the religion to the newest standard.
I see there a HUGE potential for manipulation of people.

Other then that, they seemed ok, very friendly, very nice and they seemed to really enjoy talking about their religion.

If you look at other major religions, they all spread their belief through forceful conversions. Mormons just go door to door and talk, no harm in that.


[edit on 26-11-2004 by paperclip]



posted on Nov, 26 2004 @ 01:51 AM
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Originally posted by paperclip
I had the pleasure of talking to two Mormons recently. They knocked on my door and they were so nice that I couldn't just send them away, so I talked with them.


What amazes me is that these two Mormons you speak of, (I'm sure they were missionaries. Called themselves Elder...and then their last name, correct?), are among the thousands of Mormon missionaries around the globe as we speak. Now maybe that doesn't seem too amazing to you, because other religions have missionaries, too. But every Mormon man, at the age of 19, is REQUIRED to go on a two year Mormon mission. They pay for this two year "sabbatical" with their own money. I remember as a kid, when I made money, I had to pay ten percent of it to tithing, fifty percent to my "Missionary Fund", and the rest was mine to spend. I was saving up to pay for my mission. And they're not cheap, either.

While on these missions the young man, (I say young man because the majority of missionaries are men, simply because men are required to serve, and women are given the option, but are actually discouraged from doing so to some extent), is not allowed to do anything that is not Gospel-related. No watching TV or reading newspapers, listening to any kind of music except Church music, you can't even talk to your family except on Mother's Day and Christmas. For two years you run around in whatever country you're in and "prosilyte". I don't know how to spell that word. And in my opinion, 19-21 years of age is pretty much the prime years of a person's life, and probably the time when they're most vulnerable to changing their beliefs, which I find VERY convenient for the Church.

So anyway, these young men and women pay their own money to give the best years of their lives to live a life of servitude to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. In my opinion, that shows just how much power the Church has over their members.



Originally posted by paperclip
What I found really odd is that he said they still have prophets. There are people who call themselves Prophets of God and who decide every year what is God's will, sort of adapt the religion to the newest standard.


Yes, the Prophet, (currently Gordon B. Hinckley), is the leader of the Mormon Church. He is probably referred to more often as the "President" of the Church, though, which I mentioned in a thread about how the Mormon religion is more of a brilliant business venture than an organization of God. The top three leaders of the Church are called the "First Presidency", which consists of the Prophet/President, and the First and Second Counsellors. Underneath them is the Quorum of The Twelve Apostles, which is obviously made up of twelve men. Underneath the Quorum of The Twelve Apostles is the Quorum of The Seventy, and I'm pretty sure there's more than one Quorums of The Seventy.

I used to think the Prophet/President was "ordained of God", because that's what they teach you. But I think they actually just choose the more senior of the Quorum of The Twelve Apostles after the current Prophet dies.



Originally posted by paperclip
I see there a HUGE potential for manipulation of people.


As a former member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, I can attest to you that there is no "potential" for manipulation, the Mormon church IS the most manipulative organization I have ever come in contact with. They owned me for sixteen years of my life, and I am still suffering from it. They drill into your head that the Prophet is a man of God, and that if he tells you to do something, it's coming straight from the Man Upstairs. As I look back on it now, I kind of get the feeling that they were preparing me for the day when the Prophet would call upon me personally and give me some special mission. I'm just glad I came to my senses and got out before the Prophet called upon me and told me that God had a special mission for me, and that I was supposed to hijack a plane and crash it into some tall building of non-Mormons.


[edit on 26-11-2004 by an3rkist]

[edit on 26-11-2004 by an3rkist]



posted on Nov, 26 2004 @ 03:41 AM
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hijack a plane and crash it into some tall building of non-Mormons.


that is the biggest load of crock i have ever read, and if you have 16 years experience, you know it. i was born and raised mormon. i too have left the church. i spent 18 years in it, so i too know what i am talking about. mormonism is not only a church, it is also a culture. there is a lot of traditions surrounding it that are not official 'doctrines.' people get carried away. do you really think there is a bona fide 'true' church from God on this planet? i doubt it - because all churches are run by men. men are flawed, and therefore anything they run/create/manage is destined to have flaws. i however believe the leaders of the mormon church are doing the best they can. it is the people that make the religion very 'cultish.' the church has a lot of guidlines that are not 'commandments.' i think a lot of the doctrines the church represents are merely a heads up for those not able to see the long term consequences. the church is looking out for the wellbeing of its members. i have my own qualms with the church, but the fault lies mostly with individuals (including myself). i am however not anti-mormon. your statement above takes it to the extreme. tell us, what happens when the 19-21 year old male chooses not to fufill his requirement to go on a mission? -nothing i assure you. you're still your own person, make your own choices and live with them. there are mormons who live mormonism to the T, and there are others that slack and cut corners, not to mention the spectrum of people in between. point is, each man an individual.



posted on Nov, 26 2004 @ 04:36 AM
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Originally posted by lost

hijack a plane and crash it into some tall building of non-Mormons.


that is the biggest load of crock i have ever read, and if you have 16 years experience, you know it. i was born and raised mormon. i too have left the church. i spent 18 years in it, so i too know what i am talking about. mormonism is not only a church, it is also a culture. there is a lot of traditions surrounding it that are not official 'doctrines.' people get carried away. do you really think there is a bona fide 'true' church from God on this planet? i doubt it - because all churches are run by men. men are flawed, and therefore anything they run/create/manage is destined to have flaws. i however believe the leaders of the mormon church are doing the best they can. it is the people that make the religion very 'cultish.' the church has a lot of guidlines that are not 'commandments.' i think a lot of the doctrines the church represents are merely a heads up for those not able to see the long term consequences. the church is looking out for the wellbeing of its members. i have my own qualms with the church, but the fault lies mostly with individuals (including myself). i am however not anti-mormon. your statement above takes it to the extreme. tell us, what happens when the 19-21 year old male chooses not to fufill his requirement to go on a mission? -nothing i assure you. you're still your own person, make your own choices and live with them. there are mormons who live mormonism to the T, and there are others that slack and cut corners, not to mention the spectrum of people in between. point is, each man an individual.


Okay, I knew that little statement was going to light a firecracker up somebody's butt. I doubt that scenario would ever happen, I was just trying to get the point across that the Mormon leaders have a lot of control over their members, and if you want to deny that, it's fine. Maybe you lived in a different area where the Mormon church was not as prominent or something, I dunno. And of course you're going to have your good Mormons and your bad Mormons, just like any other organization. I didn't say anything to contradict that that I can think of.


Originally posted by lost
tell us, what happens when the 19-21 year old male chooses not to fufill his requirement to go on a mission? -nothing i assure you.


I'm glad you brought this up, because this is one subject I AM an expert on. I was one of those 19 year old boys who chose not to go on a mission, and I ASSURE YOU, a lot more than NOTHING happens. I don't want to go into details, because it's very personal to me. But in essence I have been ridiculed endlessly by family, and shunned by friends. I can never go back to the place I lived in Utah because there is only one person there who still accepts me. ONE! Now you can say, "Oh, well, those are those few bad people in the Church, it's not the Church itself." But who do you think conditions people to be like that?

And do you know what's worse than that? When a missionary is sent back from his mission early because he did something "wrong" or even if he was just sent back for health reasons, he probably has it even worse off than I did. The statistics are disgusting if you're willing to do a little research and find out what the suicide rate of those early-returned missionaries are. DISGUSTING!

And just a few side notes, that may or may not be relevant: in the early to mid-1990s, suicide was the number one cause of death among 25- to 44-year-old men in the state of Utah, and the second-leading cause of death among men aged 15 to 24. The suicide rate among teenage males in Utah is MORE THAN THREE TIMES THAT OF THE NATIONAL AVERAGE!


In a study done by Sterling C. Hilton on the relationship between religion and suicide, he found that out of the 551 suicides he was investigating, 6 out of 10 were members of the Mormon Church.

Utah has the highest number of prescriptions for anti-depressants in the United States. In fact, it has TWICE THE NATIONAL AVERAGE of prescriptions for anti-depressants.

Even the divorce rate and child abuse/neglect statistics are higher than the national average in Utah!

Flukes maybe?


[edit on 26-11-2004 by an3rkist]



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