A world without religion

My signature happens to coincide with your thread title.
Just wanted to point out this synchronicity.

reply to post by UltraverseMaximus


All a world without religion would be is a world with just one less excuse.
How people act is the problem.
Not the excuses they use to justify them.

So I will touch onto spirituality for further context. I do find this another belief system and has been important to my development personally. Like all beliefs it can get out of hand when expressing onto other people or projecting ideas as fact to build more ideas on.

Spiritualty for me has only ever been a journey inside my own mind and thus through the earth conscious grid and other peoples thought forms.

Now since religions have been around for so long and the idea of good vs evil instilled in many peoples foundation for living, the spiritual side is essentially facing these thoughts head on. It has been mixed with science and religion and what we have now is a "new age" religion that has kept these memes or thought forms empowered and alive in case the original texts fail to control.

For me religious concepts are 1/3, spirituality concepts are 1/3 and direct experience is 1/3 of the full equation. Without full understanding it would be easy to settle for 2/3 or 1/3 and feel complete or satisfied. But complete is without fear and insecurities and the only way I think this can be achieved is through full realisation of the micro/macro cosmic expression.

An analogy is that someone experiences a real OBE in their awareness and sees things they have created inside the mind but appears so real to them. They then go and tell everyone this is how 'it is', they have experienced proof. Then others start experiencing similar projections and pretty soon the 100th monkey effect has entered into the global awareness grid.

The funny thing about science and spirituality is one looks one way and one looks the other way but neither look right in front for the simple answers. With that said, some travel to both realms of the cosmic experience is valuable to see "how stuff works" in more finite detail.

Why can't we just all get along.
Kids seem to be able to do it before they see the "adults" fighting.
Oh that's right the psychotics are in charge.

Dianec

The sad part is that there is not a religious person on the planet who could prove anything to me or display a working knowledge regarding the universe and how it operates. I could however prove to anyone who wants to know without a doubt where the mental confusion is deep rooted. When I use religious I am specifically talking about the bible 'bashers', not the ones who have come to understand the true meaning behind the philosophies in all the texts.

reply to post by UltraverseMaximus

 

So what your really saying is that some extremists are the problem - or those who don't really internalize or interpret it as it is meant to be?

I am not saying that you are, but extremism comes in two forms for me. Internal and external. The external has a habit of manifesting violent behaviour. Its an outward expression that must not be met with resistance basically, that's why its called extreme.

Most people who associate with one belief system over another aren't extremist. You might also say some extremists aren't violent - Jesus and the Dalai Lama as two examples - all about peace. It is people who are the problem - not the deeper ways of life religions promote.

I do not know most people. I don't even know Jesus. I do not know the Dalai Lama, however he has come to the NT before and brings happiness to people so that could be considered extremely positive. I do agree it is the people not the religions that are the issue, but the religions propagate the cycle of people to me. Cant get rid of people, it has been tried for so long already.

HarbingerOfShadows
reply to post by UltraverseMaximus

 

All a world without religion would be is a world with just one less excuse.
How people act is the problem.
Not the excuses they use to justify them.

This could have been my post. I went for the extended version.

reply to post by Dianec


I would say it is the nature of man. I would not say it is a problem, but that it is what it is.

For example, it is the nature of lions to behave as lions: to defend territory to the death, care for their young, to kill other animals for food, to terrorize those whom they did not eat by merely being present. Is it inherently wrong for a lion to have a larger territory than they need to survive? Or to kill another lion who merely needs to hunt in the same territory to feed her cubs? Why would it be different for man or woman if there is nothing but biology and the physical?

What is it that makes something right or wrong if there is no higher ideal to appeal to? If you want to aspire to a higher ideal (say an antelope who thinks lions should be nice) why should anyone else if there is nothing to be gained from doing so (the antelope become lion food.... ) Why would man not revert to baser behavior if there was nothing but biology and the physical? Does communism or capitalism create a sense of soul or spirituality? Does either care if you or your progeny survive?

BayesLike
reply to post by UltraverseMaximus

 

Without religion, there is no sense (other than a mental disorder) that there is existence of anything beyond your present life. When you die, it all ends for you. What type of moral sense does that inspire? Altruism or greed?

edit on 215pm14America/Chicago07010kAmerica/Chicago by BayesLike because: (no reason given)

once again, a Fine example or 'mortal man' and 'his' need to 'further extend or define' 'his' life, existence and 'impact' on the world/planet/big rock he 'exists'/'existed' upon.

- hence ... the 'root' of 'nearly' ALL religions.

mankind's own inability to 'accept' that perhaps 'ALL there is is WHAT there is' ... No More. No Less.

????

myself,
devoid of any 'religious belief', am safe to live by that 'golden rule', which, coupled with a karmatic approach to all thing in general, tends to ensure my 'needs' are met...... not always as i would want them to be, but as 'life' sees fit ... and in 'good time'

??

much less stressful and mOar fulfilling, imho

After having read the OP, all I can say is that the meditation of a fool is foolishness.

BayesLike
reply to post by Dianec

 

I would say it is the nature of man. I would not say it is a problem, but that it is what it is.

For example, it is the nature of lions to behave as lions: to defend territory to the death, care for their young, to kill other animals for food, to terrorize those whom they did not eat by merely being present. Is it inherently wrong for a lion to have a larger territory than they need to survive? Or to kill another lion who merely needs to hunt in the same territory to feed her cubs? Why would it be different for man or woman if there is nothing but biology and the physical?

What is it that makes something right or wrong if there is no higher ideal to appeal to? If you want to aspire to a higher ideal (say an antelope who thinks lions should be nice) why should anyone else if there is nothing to be gained from doing so (the antelope become lion food.... ) Why would man not revert to baser behavior if there was nothing but biology and the physical? Does communism or capitalism create a sense of soul or spirituality? Does either care if you or your progeny survive?

The primary difference between manimals (humans) and animals is that manimals are not only self aware as animals but we can achieve critical thinking. We can decide right or wrong based of logic not instinct.
Animals do in fact use people for experiences. At least in my experience they reflect man behaviour which reflects their behaviour. It is a bit trippy actually.

oktopus
After having read the OP, all I can say is that the meditation of a fool is foolishness.

Can you elaborate further on this. It sounds cool but I am having trouble understanding the context.

reply to post by BayesLike


It's impossible for us to be like a lion or another animal that runs from instinct. Our brains are much different. I'm sure at one time they were more like a lions (maybe very early humans). I wouldn't want to live around humans who went from instinct only - women being raped and god knows what. We think more complex thoughts and therefore need a way to hone those on some level. We are an intriguing mix of instinct and higher order thinking (consciousness).

reply to post by 12m8keall2c


Cool, but you do realize the golden rule and a sense of karma are founded in religion. So, how would these arise, or persist, in a world without religion? Do we have good examples from atheistic rulers in the 20th century who shed religion?

reply to post by Dianec


No, it's not impossible at all. A sizable percentage of our current culture behaves as they wish, doing as evil as they wish, unto others without moral reservation. Not so different from animals. Their restraint, if any, is from laws. But laws apply only when they are caught and punished for not doing as the rules require.

Bad doggie. Don't bite, don't fight. Bad doggie. Use your intellect!

CB328

do tell me which religion started WWI and WWII?

Europe was unquestionably christian in the early 20th century. In fact, Hitler said his genocide was doing the lord's work.

Which lord?
Hitler was a Theosophist.

BayesLike
reply to post by 12m8keall2c

 

Cool, but you do realize the golden rule and a sense of karma are founded in religion. So, how would these arise, or persist, in a world without religion? Do we have good examples from atheistic rulers in the 20th century who shed religion?

'founded', perhaps in the sense that 'religions' have 'taken' them over as talking points, but Not in the truest sense of basic, simple 'humanity' towards others.

no examples of such in any contemporary 'individuals' and really none throughout the history of 'mankind'.... they are/were 'typically' religiously-oriented.... otherwise their name's likely wouldn't grace the pages of our history books and the like.

against the grain doesn't typically bode well with the scribe 'recording' such.

???

I believe there to be no discussing this with you, though I will.

UltraverseMaximus
I have decided to make a post to share some of my thoughts regarding religions and how I think the world has been shaped as a result.

The first thing I want to address is the fact a book is just a book, just words on paper to be interpreted. When it comes to religions people either believe in the book literally or they will believe in the contents of the book philosophically.

So you do say a book can be interpreted. Good! What is an interpretation then, and interpretation in essence is Always right. Whatever you got wrong out of a book is not even worth calling an interpretation. Let's just call it foolishness.

What about a mathbook. It are only numbers on paper to be interpreted. Do you care that when you ask for 5 potatoes your receive 1 pear?

UltraverseMaximus
The problem with believing in the book literally arises with mental illness. I say illness because I can observe a severe lack of logical reasoning with certain mind sets and as a result all communications break down very easy. In these instances references to quoted pages of the texts fly to justify reason rather than thoughts from the individuals own mind.

Did you reason with people likeminded to you?

UltraverseMaximus
I do believe such texts are valuable in terms of history and heritage but not when it comes to defining right or wrong to other individuals. Without the information contained in such texts society would have evolved slower philosophically as the wisdom contained would not be available to everyone as it is today.

You're probably right, and I do believe it is a good book for defining right and wrong.

UltraverseMaximus
Today society has clearly gone past the need for religions to exist outside the individuals own house, which to religious cults is also called a "church". This external glorification and idolisation of something greater than man and life is the reason that division exists from the ground to the top when it comes to the mind of an individual.

The lack of religion by some creates divides them from the religious. True.

UltraverseMaximus

Knowledge can be a tool for self empowerment, however if this knowledge has not been discerned on merit then the individual will be susceptible to some greater force of leverage and manipulation. To put another way they will be a victim to the keeper of their knowledge that they are seeking. This will lead to exploitable tendencies as knowledge should be free and available to everyone if the intent was not exploit.

So without main stream religions being externalised on every front, I can see a world where people are no longer trying to prove who is right or wrong to the death and a world where everyone is able to learn from mistakes without extreme prejudice and unnecessary suffering. I do not claim the world will without struggle if there was no religious propaganda but genocide would certainly be a thing of the past. That is what religions have instilled into many people who have been indoctrinate into belief systems, my way or the high way kind of mind set which lead to racism no matter anyone wants to look at it. In this case the schism is not race specific but rather sections of all races across the planet.
It is easy to do these horrific things in the name of something "greater" and feel justified but no one will never be justified killing in the name of.

The sad part is that there is not a religious person on the planet who could prove anything to me or display a working knowledge regarding the universe and how it operates. I could however prove to anyone who wants to know without a doubt where the mental confusion is deep rooted. When I use religious I am specifically talking about the bible 'bashers', not the ones who have come to understand the true meaning behind the philosophies in all the texts.

One is only a victim to one with knowledge if the one with knowledge is keeping knowledge from that one.

To spread religion you must have a heart and have a sense of sense. They shouldn't try to convert walls and trees.

I think the problem we have is fools trying to come over as wise, parotting what the wise once said without having any feeling with it.

reply to post by BayesLike


Some people do behave on instinct alone but the majority do not - lots of good people out there. Just need to see the good in them. And you can always choose to not like religion - diversity is amazing. I can't imagine a world where we all thought alike. It would be pretty bland.

oktopus
I think the problem we have is fools trying to come over as wise, parotting what the wise once said without having any feeling with it.

I agree. The feeling is important to wisdom. To be honest though fool may not be the right word. Fool is sort of relative to who has the biggest pimp hand