Russia declares war on Ukraine. Live updates from inside Ukraine

reply to post by statifik


There we go, much better - now we can see what was said and by whom

Now, you claim the impeachment and new Government are illegitimate, but these were done by the Ukrainian parliament which is the same Parliament which was sitting under the old President, so no matter what Russian sources may say, the Kiev Government has far more legitimacy than the Vichy Government set up in the Crimea by Russia.

reply to post by pheonix358


Why would China join the fray? They've sat on the fence so far and made the right noises about "respecting sovereignty" - they have too much to lose to enter into any confrontation - what do you think would happen to the Chinese economy is the US/EU markets vanished? What about the trillions of dollars owed to them? It's not something China can just ignore. They are also not exactly best buddies with Russia - they sometimes work together on common ground, but there is no love lost between them.

On the flip side though, as I've been saying, Western inaction here might spur China on with regards to it's own ambitions in the South China Sea etc...

A dangerous game this...

stumason
reply to post by statifik

 

There we go, much better

- now we can see what was said and by whom

Now, you claim the impeachment and new Government are illegitimate, but these were done by the Ukrainian parliament which is the same Parliament which was sitting under the old President, so no matter what Russian sources may say, the Kiev Government has far more legitimacy than the Vichy Government set up in the Crimea by Russia.

Oh, yes, unless you consider one small detail: nowhere in the official sources not specified how and who voted, and the vote was voluntary and not coerced by the bandits, occupying government buildings at that time. In addition, here is a link to an official statement deputies from Kharkov, considering this procedure illegitimate:
www.vz.ru...

Solutions deputies of the Ukrainian parliament adopted in recent days, cast doubt on the legitimacy and voluntary, according to a resolution of the Congress of Deputies south-eastern Ukraine, passing on Saturday in Kharkov.

in Ukraine new goverment and j*ws gangs killing the soldiers berkut and civilians . Russia took 142,000 refugees from Ukraine . new blue blood goverment consisting exclusively of j*ws prepare genocide red blood goims

stumason
reply to post by pheonix358

 

Why would China join the fray? They've sat on the fence so far and made the right noises about "respecting sovereignty" - they have too much to lose to enter into any confrontation - what do you think would happen to the Chinese economy is the US/EU markets vanished? What about the trillions of dollars owed to them? It's not something China can just ignore. They are also not exactly best buddies with Russia - they sometimes work together on common ground, but there is no love lost between them.

On the flip side though, as I've been saying, Western inaction here might spur China on with regards to it's own ambitions in the South China Sea etc...

A dangerous game this...

You are right. China has always cared only their own interests. But the same thing can be said about the United States in relation to the European Union. Or you think otherwise, after the following statements:

On Youtube there was a record of a conversation between U.S. Assistant Secretary Victoria Nuland and the U.S. ambassador to Ukraine Jeffrey Paet. In particular, Nuland released to the EU a round oath.

statifik
Unfortunately, you are thinking only tactically , not strategically :

Am I now? I've been quite vocal on the strategic implications, actually. Western inaction will only spur on Russia and others with ambitions.

statifik
1. NATO will never admit a military intervention in any of the countries possessing nuclear military capability . They're too shy for that.

NATO isn't shy - if it wasn't for cooler heads (Sir Michael Jackson), NATO soldiers would have engaged Russian forces in Kosovo. Caution and hope for diplomacy shouldn't be seen as "shyness".

statifik
2 . Do not confuse the military-political bloc of NATO and economic sanctions. It's different international institutions . Your phrase that NATO countries use other means in addition to the UN should be backed up ( as you like to tell others ) specific examples.

Don't worry, I am not "confused" about who or what NATO is. Don't patronise me.

You do, however, seem to be confused about what I said. I never uttered the phrase "that NATO countries use other means in addition to the UN".

statifik
3 . U.S. and Western European countries are afraid of political and military cooperation between China and Russia , and they are willing to sacrifice any country in the world , but would not allow it. And sanctions against Russia automatically mean that this country will come out of the WTO , disastrous for its economy and multinational companies who make policy in the West will lose customers in Russia , Kazakhstan and other countries of the "Customs Union" .

That "customs union" is not exactly a major earner when it comes to Western companies, but rather it is a big earner for those countries because of Western involvement and primarily, Western interests are purely for Gas/Oil - they have nothing else worthy of export to advanced economies.

As for the WTO, you may find it is Russia who gets shoved out into the cold, not any Western power. And no, sanctions, tariffs and the like do not mean automatic expulsion from the WTO, far from it actually.

Some people seem to think around here that Russia has more clout than it actually does.... Being friends with Iran or Venezuela is hardly going to break the back of the West.

stumason
reply to post by pheonix358

 

Why would China join the fray? They've sat on the fence so far and made the right noises about "respecting sovereignty" - they have too much to lose to enter into any confrontation - what do you think would happen to the Chinese economy is the US/EU markets vanished?

China might care because they own/rent or plan to own/rent vast swathes of Ukranian farmland, don't they?

reply to post by stumason

Western inaction here might spur China on with regards to it's own ambitions in the South China Sea etc...

And let's not forget: if Russia needs to pull troops from the Russo-Chinese border to contain the situation in Ukraine, it will present China with an opportunity to expand into Russian Manchuria to protect all the ethnic Chinese there!

reply to post by khimbar


Not really - a deal was done for some investment into a Ukrainian farming firm last year, who control around 5% of Ukraine's arable land, but it remains to be seen if that deal will actually go through.

It isn't actually the Chinese "renting" or "owning" it, just pumping money into an agri-firm based there for modernisation. Ukraine is a major food exporter.

reply to post by DJW001


Good point!

I would laugh at Russia if the Chinese did that, talk about blow back!

DJW001
reply to post by stumason

 

Western inaction here might spur China on with regards to it's own ambitions in the South China Sea etc...

And let's not forget: if Russia needs to pull troops from the Russo-Chinese border to contain the situation in Ukraine, it will present China with an opportunity to expand into Russian Manchuria to protect all the ethnic Chinese there!

You are fully aware that China and Russia have been in joint war games with each nations military forces in cooperation for them, right?

You speak as if Russia is in some tight spot with China on the East and Europe to the west to squeeze them.....kinda like some other points people have taken as a given but have little basis...this simply isn't true as a point I've actually written threads on within the last 18 months. (The close and public cooperation between Moscow and Beijing, that is)

Putin can begin to capture the eastern regions of Ukraine - Brzezinski

He said this in an interview with CNN, UNIAN reports . Crimean scenario could be the beginning of what Putin plans. In some eastern regions of Ukraine, where the Russian-Ukrainian living, including a significant portion sympathetic to Moscow, Moscow initiated to commence disorder. Then will come the Russian troops, - Said Brzezinski According to experts, the international community must intervene to stop Putin to avoid of conflict. "These effects have to be very serious, because otherwise a few years, we regret that did not do the steps as well as regret not having done so after Munich in 1938, and we know what happened then" - he said .

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asen_y2k

Putin can begin to capture the eastern regions of Ukraine - Brzezinski

He said this in an interview with CNN, UNIAN reports . Crimean scenario could be the beginning of what Putin plans. In some eastern regions of Ukraine, where the Russian-Ukrainian living, including a significant portion sympathetic to Moscow, Moscow initiated to commence disorder. Then will come the Russian troops, - Said Brzezinski According to experts, the international community must intervene to stop Putin to avoid of conflict. "These effects have to be very serious, because otherwise a few years, we regret that did not do the steps as well as regret not having done so after Munich in 1938, and we know what happened then" - he said .

So it was not the US-NATO-western block that started the poking in the region, after the Merkel failure? And last but not least the 1938 remark, never let a chance go by I see.

There are also rumours of US military ships arriving in the Black Sea. And US specialists in Kiev.

Also rumours on Ukrainian social networks that most pro Russian protestors are infact Russians bused into eastern Ukrainian cities.

Russia has vowed its troops will remain in Ukraine to protect Russian interests and citizens until the political situation has been "normalised". Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said Russia was defending human rights against "ultra-nationalist threats". Russia is now in de facto military control of the Crimea region, despite Western condemnation of a "violation of Ukraine's sovereignty"

Russia troops to stay in Crimea

Brown sticky stuff could soon be hitting the fan between east and west.

Does anyone know how to find the current location of the US 6th fleet?

asen_y2k
There are also rumours of US military ships arriving in the Black Sea. And US specialists in Kiev.

shame you cant linky a rumor.

stumason
reply to post by khimbar

 

Not really - a deal was done for some investment into a Ukrainian farming firm last year, who control around 5% of Ukraine's arable land, but it remains to be seen if that deal will actually go through.

It isn't actually the Chinese "renting" or "owning" it, just pumping money into an agri-firm based there for modernisation. Ukraine is a major food exporter.

I knew there was something but wasn't in a position to have a look.

Thanks for the clarification.