China expands air defense

reply to post by penninja


I will ignore your cowards comment knowing I can't do much about it anyways.

I will clarify. I'm tired of the unending guilt trip by Japanese and others for Hiroshima and Nagasaki- the fire-bombing of Tokyo as well, for that matter- when more Chinese died at the rape of Nanking, previous to Pearl Harbor, than all three of the above combined.

If there is an "obligation" to Japan, defense-wise, it is an obligation to ourselves. In the form of duty, of commitment.

Just how long that should last, at least in Japan's case, is the subject of another thread. Surely, it's not until the end of time.

Where I draw the line is some long-winded post about Japanese history and somehow that becomes our "obligation", when in fact, Japan has an obligation to repair it's relationship with China for it's acts. Not just come running to the U.S. when times get a little tense.

Yes, you'd better be willing to use your military else what's the point of having one, but, when even the so-called right wing doesn't have the hormones to do the job right then all that is accomplished is more blood and money wasted for no result.

That's about as immoral as it gets.

"Speak softly, but carry a big stick" works, IF there is an honest attempt to achieve an accord with potential advisories. An honorable, honest solution that both sides can abide. If that can't be done, then...sobeit. At least try.

Let's see the Japanese make the move. "What can we do to make this right?" If the demands are intolerable, fine. At least they tried and not just hide behind the U.S.'s military.

reply to post by nwtrucker

Yes there is an agreement and when we end our treaty then Japan can rearm it's military beyond just a defense force.
www.washingtontimes.com...
apparently the poster from Japan wants us to leave?
If so I hope the person speaks Chinese they wouldn't have a chance.
China is in the process of being militarily contained by the US that is how we are positioning our forces at the moment.

nwtrucker
reply to post by penninja

 

I will ignore your cowards comment knowing I can't do much about it anyways.

I will clarify. I'm tired of the unending guilt trip by Japanese and others for Hiroshima and Nagasaki- the fire-bombing of Tokyo as well, for that matter- when more Chinese died at the rape of Nanking, previous to Pearl Harbor, than all three of the above combined.

If there is an "obligation" to Japan, defense-wise, it is an obligation to ourselves. In the form of duty, of commitment.

Just how long that should last, at least in Japan's case, is the subject of another thread. Surely, it's not until the end of time.

Where I draw the line is some long-winded post about Japanese history and somehow that becomes our "obligation", when in fact, Japan has an obligation to repair it's relationship with China for it's acts. Not just come running to the U.S. when times get a little tense.

Yes, you'd better be willing to use your military else what's the point of having one, but, when even the so-called right wing doesn't have the hormones to do the job right then all that is accomplished is more blood and money wasted for no result.

That's about as immoral as it gets.

"Speak softly, but carry a big stick" works, IF there is an honest attempt to achieve an accord with potential advisories. An honorable, honest solution that both sides can abide. If that can't be done, then...sobeit. At least try.

Let's see the Japanese make the move. "What can we do to make this right?" If the demands are intolerable, fine. At least they tried and not just hide behind the U.S.'s military.

edit on 24-11-2013 by nwtrucker because: grammar

1: The Japanese never actually give us a guilt trip about it... rarely if ever. They have been really decent to deal with in business, in politics... across the board for the most part. I think it's politically correct jerks in America your thinking of and the occasional similar type from the UK that likes to scream about how we won the war...

2: Japan has no obligation to say it's sorry to China and we shouldn't push them to, If I had a fight with someone in the past and the person came back years later to "get even" I'd expect my friends to take my back, not tell me to apologize for what I did. Maybe ... I just didn't like the guy and knew he was this kind of person in the first place?

What? It worked out well for the Japanese people to have China and it's 1.5 Billion people next door? They were stupid? They didn't know they would have a giant bully next door? Japan should apologize for the butt kicking it threw? The mistake wasn't attacking China it was not making some kind of deal with us to keep us out of it... They knew they would wake up one day and their entire culture would be at risk of extinction at the hands of a massive horde, i'd hit them first too... at least it slowed this down from happening for a couple of decades. One must entertain that if China was like this at the height of the Soviets power and Communism there might not be an America either at this point and time... Cold War would have ended badly.

Apologize? How does it work out for Japan (economy #3) and America (economy #1) to let China Economy#2 with 1.5 Billion boots be no 1? Apologize for punching in the face a nation that can and will genocide you? Do it perhaps without even meaning too?

Having China next door ... is like having the guy from Mice and men around your kids... all they need to do is be a little over exuberant and something dies... like Japan. You open the door and your bred out of existence by accident in a single generation. They could drop a Chinese person per person in SK, Japan, Canada, America and Mexico... and still have nearly a Billion ethnic Chinese in the mother land...Apologize? they won't apologize when every person from the Black Sea on one end to Iceland is speaking mandarin

China regards these disputed islands as being part of Taiwan. And Taiwan agrees. And obviously China claims Taiwan.
So what China has done is even more inflammatory ... they're securing Taiwanese airspace ! And that's a real big poke in the eye for the US Government.

It takes the whole thing up a notch, nicht wahr ?

However. They're uninhabited. Surely not a shooting war over them ?

But why does the US Defense Secretary mutter away about treaty obligations, with vague promises to come to Japan's aid militarily, when US support for Britain is non existent on the issue of the competing claims of Spain & Argentina for British territories in Gibraltar and the Falkland Islands ?

In fact, the US Government is even worse, they actively undermine the British and their territories by sitting on the fence on the issue of sovereignty, despite tens of thousands of British subjects voting to remain British.

US diplomacy recently is pretty awful.

cavtrooper7
reply to post by nwtrucker

 

Yes there is an agreement and when we end our treaty then Japan can rearm it's military beyond just a defense force.
www.washingtontimes.com...
apparently the poster from Japan wants us to leave?
If so I hope the person speaks Chinese they wouldn't have a chance.
China is in the process of being militarily contained by the US that is how we are positioning our forces at the moment.

edit on 24-11-2013 by cavtrooper7 because: (no reason given)

I'd disagree

If we left right, Japan could do just fine. The Japanese could have Nukes of their own accord in months if they wanted to which is a huge deterrent. Beyond that, their tech prowess is Amazing. You have to be able to land those men to take the island, in a modern world, the real here is that Japan is small enough for highly advanced missile defense to work... particularly when you have the upper hand in science. Defending something the size of China from Nukes when your starting in the given technology 15-20 years behind the 8 ball and covering 50x the territory isn't so easy.

Could you stop a missile barrage and mainly troop carrying boats from China from landing, yeah. Let the Japanese start playing with ideas and the initial base of technology they have and we have let them have access to. A missile shield might end up easy, their "scary" targets, nuke plants and population centers are small, mainly already shut down and FEW in number.

China however... pick the one spot you need a Missile to get through to and you have a hundred choices, any one of them and it's over, highly reliant on Nuclear, where Japan can shut it's junk down in hrs and use overlapping defense systems by geography. Japan, a handful of large cities again defensible by geography by perhaps singular systems China has cities of Millions...all over the place. realistically if any ONE goes down and the disease from the dead bodies starts to spread... (we don't have to describe this do we?)

How about what happens if a single missile hits the 3 Gorges?

I have to disagree

Japan has a lot of money and a lot of tech and a small as heck location by comparison to defend... truthfully there is now and always will be a reason we dont want them to re-arm... they could be in a position to hand us our heads in a couple of years...

Think about it... Take the US defense budget and technology, apply that tech to only having to defend California, then pack 120 million people in the zone, upgrade the educational level to where everyone has some kind of a degree and has a sense of national pride and no one really is on dope...

Could China nail Japan if it had the number of subs, 12 Carrier battle groups, an equal size airforce and missile defense systems as the USA all packed on to an Island or around? Not a chance in hell... and they have the money to do it...

I'd bet on Japan

reply to post by penninja


You are very optimistic about Japan's defenses. China is the bigger land mass and has more places to hide things. Japan is like Cuba during the missile crisis, there would be NO WHERE TO HIDE on that small stretch of land.

China's blind sight over there territory isn't enough to make them lose, they just need to chuck lots of bombs at a small target.

Or better yet use their Taiwan doctrine on the Island of Japan. I honestly think without the US involved Japan will give in, and after decades of assets being dried up, a US defense umbrella would economically unstable . So the eastern hemisphere will belong to China, they have ipod war machine factories and the US has liability factories.

Lastly China has North Korea as a proxy, so they have first strike capability. China is just too big of a beast to lose. Japan has seen better days.

reply to post by thewholetruth


You're optimistic about Chinas ability to fight a war that far away from their own territory.

reply to post by penninja


Maybe your unaware of this or just ignoring it, but, we were fighting, albeit, unofficially, with the Chinese against the Japanese well before pearl harbor. "china marines" P-40s flown by Americans under Chinese Flags, probably more areas than I know about....

The Japanese had labeled it "The all east-Asian co-prosperity sphere". their justification for starting a world war about ten years before it fired up in Europe in '39.

The Vietnam war, the Korean War and the current mess in Korea are all a direct result of that Japanese imperialism. (Yes, we screwed up allowing the split of Vietnam and Korea with the Soviet Union). It's STILL costing us a fortune militarily.

Whether it's an apology or whatever. The Japanese needs to make an attempt at fixing things with China. For all the reasons you state as well as mine.

If we can't fix things, we might as well lets the birds fly and get it over with.

reply to post by cavtrooper7


I agree. China isn't/won't be a military threat to the U.S. for at least twenty years.

My only short term concern is their ability to fund programs that the U.S. can't. Lacking oversite committees and the closing gap world technology vs U.S., they could develop some high tech weaponry that could swing the advantage close enough for them to make an attempt. That especially would be tempting if their economy does a bunk which is possible and even likely in light of a world wide economic collapse.

About a year ago, the supreme commander of China's military was taken on a tour of facilities you and I would never be allowed access to and shown some of our capabilities.

He stated in a T.V. interview that China could not compete with U.S. military technologies.

Since that time, China has dropped it's rhetoric against the U.S. and has ratcheted it up against mainly Japan.

For the last twenty years, the Philippines, Japan, S. Korea and even Vietnam has via backdoor diplomacy, has urged a continued U.S. presence in the S China Sea as a counter to the growing Chinese military power.

Of course, it may not be in the "U.S. interests" to have China and Japan becoming "buddies".

What a screwed up planet....

Human0815
I think we need first to know why there is so much trouble:
According to some Sources this Area is a massive Methane Pit,
other Sources named Fish as the Reason,
i go with the Energy Topic.

Both Countries are depleted of Energy and Methane is seen
as a great Resources in both Countries!

I forgot to mention "Rare Earth"!

The Area is saturated with special rare Elements!

nwtrucker
reply to post by penninja

 

Maybe your unaware of this or just ignoring it, but, we were fighting, albeit, unofficially, with the Chinese against the Japanese well before pearl harbor. "china marines" P-40s flown by Americans under Chinese Flags, probably more areas than I know about....

The Japanese had labeled it "The all east-Asian co-prosperity sphere". their justification for starting a world war about ten years before it fired up in Europe in '39.

The Vietnam war, the Korean War and the current mess in Korea are all a direct result of that Japanese imperialism. (Yes, we screwed up allowing the split of Vietnam and Korea with the Soviet Union). It's STILL costing us a fortune militarily.

Whether it's an apology or whatever. The Japanese needs to make an attempt at fixing things with China. For all the reasons you state as well as mine.

If we can't fix things, we might as well lets the birds fly and get it over with.

I really don't understand peoples tendency to use the past in this manner... Our position with China in WW2 has nothing to do with the last 3 generations... 2 types of people in this world, those who fight and become fast friends and those who fight and are hillbillies and continue the feud for generations. That's not the direction our relationship with Japan went...

I do however agree, "fixing" the situation with China is the ideal, but honestly I see the issue largely being a Chinese one, China still has a large number of people not in the modern world and honestly where ever you see this nonsense of people holding grudges over generations it's always within uneducated populations or even when the population is educated there is that base of people be it within the generational scale the elderly or just a large portion of poverty stricken who live in the past... I said earlier, no eco friendly, rave throwing modern german needs to say sorry to this jew... I allow Grandpa on my side to talk about the holocaust I am sure some of them have Grandpas old uniform in the closet but we both know... we have more in common with each other today than we actually do with Grandpa.

All i'm saying is the Chinese govt will need to help, 2/5ths of it's population is rural... redneck Chinese, listening to Grandpas stories about the Japanese and the Chinese Govt kind of like to rile them up whenever there is an issue with Japan...

Personally, i'm not a fan of it anywhere, I'm sick of hearing about slavery and Indian genocide in the States, I'm sick of the Palestinian thing with israel and the Japanese Chinese issue is equally retarded... Most of us were born like myself after 1970... the borders are todays and the issues have to be dealt with by the current situations and how to resolve them without bringing up the past.

I mention being raised Jewish because "my people" are among the worst offenders of this crap... Chanukah is in a few days, we are still basing (not me) on what the freakin Babylonians did... Was it the babylonians that chased them into a cave so they had to light candles? I don't know... I celebrate xmas because it's festive.

It's tiring hearing what cultures did in the past, China is the guilty party here for inflaming the past for $$$$$ gain.

I want a PS4 for Christmas and hopefully one of those cool sex androids one day ((lol) and maybe the full edition of the Bleach anime on BlueRay and i'm doing some work Today on Vocaloid 3 by Yamaha and I also like Rice Burners (and that's a term of endearment not racist) China should stop the bs of working up morons into an anti japan frenzy they are pretty cool these days...

Are we any better ...no, America does all sorts of bad things for Energy dominance (just to be fair and throw it out there) This anti Japanese nonsense for ages ago just needs to go, if a fight happens its over god damn natural gas... We aren't in the ME to "save women" they aren't on this fly zone bs because of the rape of Nanjing

thewholetruth
reply to post by penninja

 

You are very optimistic about Japan's defenses. China is the bigger land mass and has more places to hide things. Japan is like Cuba during the missile crisis, there would be NO WHERE TO HIDE on that small stretch of land.

China's blind sight over there territory isn't enough to make them lose, they just need to chuck lots of bombs at a small target.

Or better yet use their Taiwan doctrine on the Island of Japan. I honestly think without the US involved Japan will give in, and after decades of assets being dried up, a US defense umbrella would economically unstable . So the eastern hemisphere will belong to China, they have ipod war machine factories and the US has liability factories.

Lastly China has North Korea as a proxy, so they have first strike capability. China is just too big of a beast to lose. Japan has seen better days.

So... China has 27x the land area to defend as Japan and a roughly economic level of equality to do it... 5x the number of reactors to cover, giant universal projects like 3 gorges, 10x the number of cities with populations in the millions, a vast energy grid to harden over huge areas, etc etc...

And the name of the game today is missile defense

Explain to me how being "bigger" helps is a gun fight?

reply to post by penninja


Seeing you don't "understand" where I'm coming from, and I do see your point about being stuck in the past, there is a balance between the two views.

Ignoring history is for the wistful dreamer, IMO, as Twain is quoted having said, "History doesn't repeat itself, but it does rhyme."

My personal line is we don't owe anything to Japan for WWII. IF we owe them, it's a loyalty and personal (U.S.) integrity issue.

I believe they also owe us to make every attempt that is reasonably possible to defuse the situation with China and keep the U.S. out of this other than as a last resort. PERIOD.

Yes, China has a track record of "saber rattling" ...ooops, there's that "history" again... as Japan is apparently the "saner" of the two nations, then that duty lies with Japan to make the effort, go that extra mile.

My support for Japan is "qualified". If Japan was found to be the aggressor, the one instigating issues, then I'm less inclined to view them as "friends no matter what". Conversely, if Japan does go that extra mile, then my support and how far I'd be willing to go in that support, goes up as well.

Oh, by the way, that defense agreement with Japan is also part of "history" and is not a relevant as in the cold war era.

China after all, has been propping up our economy, to a degree with T-bill purchases. Surely that puts them in less of an enemy status than say twenty -thirty years ago...or in Mao's time. I know, I know, that "relationship" is really qualified..LOL.

Outside of Israel, perhaps the U.K., Australia and Canada, I can't honestly call anyone else our friends...or merit our trust....

reply to post by nwtrucker


You know, the debate on if Japan should do everything they can or not, we can agree to disagree. In the end it's opinion, I personally wouldn't appease a bully.

As far as history goes, one of the more common pseudo intellectual thought patterns you hear is "he who doesn't remember history is doomed to repeat it"

My personal opinion, one of the worst coping mechanisms is self fulfilling prophecy, sayings in general when followed as rule are ridiculous "If at first you don't succeed try try again" Tell that to the guy who blew his sphincter out on his 3rd dead left attempt at 500 lbs or the other guy who got arrested for continuing to harass a woman who said no... I can go on all day with examples of where a person should just give the frack up before they get hurt... Likewise "history will repeat" it's complete nonsense in this era, there has never been a precedent for the changes occurring right now... a world connected by telecommunications with the ability to learn anything, translate instantly and almost universally communicate with any one anywhere.

There is no telling what can happen, same methods absolutely might not get the same results... even as we sit here and the current ptb everywhere do and make attempts to repeat every pattern of public subjugation in history almost everybody everywhere know it... sure, most people are choosing to allow what is happening to a degree, but when Death raises it's ugly head they might just find it's impossible to maintain "war" for example... we aren't there yet, but we are precariously close to a point where that can happen. And the previous is simply an example, the main point is... it's all entirely different now.

I'd agree to a certain degree that japan is the saner "government" but i'm just not sure it's a good idea for the "sane" to appease the "insane" I also agree that China is a lot closer to us than ever before, but that treaty isn't history until such a time as it is broken. It's current... could we debate getting rid of it? sure... I'd be pro that subject, none the less the way to do it is not to just switch allies.

I'd also disagree on one thing, i'd put Japan on the short list of true allies, our own mistrust if not would be the only reason, I have a lot of friends over there, the issue if they aren't is us... our hanging on to the past, our cultural issues with mistrust. It's not on the Japanese end if your correct.

Why is this post in this Forum?


Although its titled Japan, this forum is about Fukushima.....not the Chinese claiming some island

We can speculate for Weeks about Japan, China, the US and Rockets
but we should not forget who is paying the Price for this kind of War!

I don't want to see any of this Kids in a War, not the Japanese, not
the Chinese and of course not the Americans who should invest
their Money in a better educational System than for a Army!

It is not Person A. who will benefit from a War and not Person B.
but Mitsubishi, Haliburton or/ and The corrupted Chinese System,
if they want a War "Dozo, but without me, and without my Neighbors
and their Neighbors!


I am tired!

RickinVa
Why is this post in this Forum?


Although its titled Japan, this forum is about Fukushima.....not the Chinese claiming some island

I'm sure if mod had a problem they would move it. The only thing you did is interrupt a good debate.

War of words heating up over China's air defense zone

Prime Minister Shinzo Abe lashed out at China over its new air defense zone that covers the disputed Senkaku Islands and vowed to defend Japan’s land, sea and airspace at any cost.

“We can never accept (the zone), which makes Japan’s airspace over the Senkaku Islands appear as if it was China’s,” Abe told an Upper House committee meeting Nov. 25. “We are demanding China retract all actions.”

China’s Ministry of National Defense said Nov. 23 it set an Air Defense Identification Zone (ADIZ) that overlaps Japan’s in the East China Sea. Both countries’ ADIZs now include airspace over the Senkaku Islands, which are under Japan’s administration but also claimed by China.

“We will firmly but calmly respond to any attempt backed by force to change the status quo,” Abe said.

The same day, Vice Foreign Minister Akitaka Saiki summoned Cheng Yonghua, China’s ambassador to Japan, and insisted the air defense zone be retracted.

When a foreign aircraft enters a country’s ADIZ without advance notice, the country typically scrambles fighters to monitor the situation.

Two intelligence-gathering aircraft of the People’s Liberation Army entered Japan’s ADIZ on Nov. 23. One flew to a point 40 kilometers north of the Senkaku Islands, prompting Air Self-Defense Force aircraft to scramble.

Asahi Source

nwtrucker
The Japanese had labeled it "The all east-Asian co-prosperity sphere". their justification for starting a world war about ten years before it fired up in Europe in '39.

the conflict between china and japan goes back to the qing dynasty and 3 consecutive wars over a 50 year period and neither side is more right regarding any of it, if anything china has just as much to apologize for, japan was just more successful and had western powers supporting them until they became too successful for our liking and too friendly to germany.

Major Update :
rt.com...

Japan’s two largest airlines have refused to continue submitting flight plans to Chinese aviation authorities as demanded by Beijing’s new air defense zone rules.

ANA Holdings and Japan Airlines said they made the decision following a Japanese government request, Reuters reports.

On Saturday, the Chinese Defense Ministry said that any Japanese planes in the vicinity of the disputed Senkaku/ Diaoyu Islands need to submit their flight patterns to China’s Foreign Ministry or civil aviation administration and they must maintain radio contact with Chinese authorities.

Both airlines have been informing China's aviation authorities of flights through the recently established zone in the East China Sea. They will stop doing so as of Wednesday, spokesmen for the carriers said.

US Secretary of State John Kerry warned that China's attempt to impose control over the airspace "constitutes an attempt to change the status quo in the East China Sea. Escalatory action will only increase tensions in the region and create risks of an incident."

More than 20 countries, including Japan and the US enforce similar airspace identification zones in the interest of national security.Those zones, however, are not in disputed areas.

Tensions between Japan and China over the eight uninhabited islands ratcheted up after Tokyo Governor Shintaro Ishihara said he would use public money to buy the islands from their private Japanese owner.