Why we SHOULD demand military action on Syria

reply to post by mikegrouchy


I can't think of a single instance when US military intervention for supposed benevolent cause has ever resulted in advancement of humanity when there was no threat to the US to start with. So although you think there's some sort of moral responsibility to hurl missiles into Syria (read oxymoron here), statistics weigh heavily against your argument.

Furthermore, supposed offenses committed by the incumbent in Syria will eventually be revealed from where they actually came from (and it wasn't Assad).

Dear Mike,

I posted in your thread about a week ago. And it looks like you have found the only right answer; and answer that is the inevitable solution to the problem which you posed.

I think it would be beneficial for people who care to understand a little, to go here. Keep reading.

I have read the entire thread. There are a couple whom you offered wine, cigars, and ribs. And even out of those to whom you offered, I still did not see true valid reason, wisdom, or advance in the discussion. But at least they have a feeling.

For everyone else, I have a few things to say to you, and Mike has been trying to ask you kindly and politely to see:

You are not thinking, at all. Hardly a neuron has fired from the opposition here; not in the direction of wisdom, that is.

You're all so afraid of... well, that's it. You're simply just afraid. You cannot make any good decisions based upon fear. It doesn't happen. Never, and never ever.

As well, when the whole world jumps on a wagon, that's the wrong band. That's a fact. If you haven't learned that by now, then you're a big part of a huge problem.

But then, Mike is playing on that. Or haven't you seen it yet?

This grouch guy is good at chess; or he would be if he played. Because he is not only seeing all the possibilities, but unbeknownst to most of you (maybe all of you), he's getting his desired response, and desired reaction from all of you. And you will wake up tomorrow a different person.

I came here to take a little responsibility, because I answered a question of his.

It would take all day to explain all the faulty thinking happening in this thread, so I will lay out a few of the reasons (for a purpose that I will not completely reveal, because I don't want to ripple and cause interference with Mike's ripple, but rather I seek to enhance its utility).

1) War is -going- to happen. Whether you like it or not. It's never NOT happened since the beginning of everything. Until the Lord shows up, there will be wars. Time to get over it and face the facts.

2) If war is inevitable, then you don't want to lose. If you don't want to lose, you take initiative. That's the point. If not this time with Syria, then sometime, someday, the bubble will pop. And when it does, whoever wasn't privy neither prepared will be left desolate.

3) *this is especially to beezer* -- really? Taking away another country's rights to produce its own stuff, whatever that may be, is equivalent to taking away hand guns from people that have never used them. So it has nothing to do with whether they had them or not. It's ONLY about the fact that they used them. Unless you think it's right for the US government to take away everyone's handguns because they might shoot somebody (which is definitely what a handgun is designed for...)

4) Yes, -they- used them. It doesn't matter about the names. It doesn't matter about the who. It's the act; and everyone agrees. People want to call Mike insane; yet, I think it is more insane to learn of a teacher at another school gassing their students and NOT doing something about it. That's not just insane, that's heartless, weak, self-centered, and pathetic.

5) For those that claim the USA will be seen from the future from your point of view, you really don't understand how history works. Everyone has heard of the Civil War (in the United States). THERE WERE OTHER COUNTRIES INVOLVED THEN, TOO! Hello? Now tell me, without looking it up, because we're talking about what everyone knows, not what people are able to look up: Do you know how long it took for the Civil War to start? (to user grandma something that claims "9/11 is dead") So then you might learn a little about how history actually works. Big points, then finer details for those that desire to seek (and then, even then, they will still blast the trumpets for the big points, not the finer details).

6) The only way that the people are going to regain their authority in this country is to take it back from within. That means fully backing the President in his action. Therefore, you enforce the democratic process to once again take place!! Because with the approval of the people, people will always be watching for the correct procedures. And people will be keeping the government more accountable to their actions (instead of whining, moaning, complaining). It's going to happen, whether you like it or not, so start learning how to be real men and women and do something real; for once in 30 years.

7) Once you have reignited the democratic process, then the government will once again be forced to surrender its opinions and its authority back to the people. They will once again have to start actually doing things that we like in order to keep their jobs. They would be employees which we might consider for rehire!

A few more for this list on the next post.

8) When other countries see our harsh response to this display of chemical warfare, they will think fifteen times before screwing around with chemical weapons again. Draw a line. Don't be so easily confused and dismayed. Act. For example, if I see my son hit my other son, I don't care the reason. I'm on him like green on grass. And then I ask, "Why did you put a finger on your brother?" You see, Justice doesn't sit around and wait for people to make up their minds. An offense is an offense. TAKE CARE OF IT. Then learn more about it and solve the root of the problem. If poison sumac is growing up all around you, you cut off the branches first so there is no immediate danger of irritation. THEN you go remove the stump so that it doesn't come back.

9) You're all so high and mighty in your thoughts. "No more death!" It's like being afraid of your own shadow! Death is inevitable, until the coming of the Lord. That's just a fact and you can never deny that. And you atheist kinds, death is inevitable forever to you in your minds, so what does it matter to you? Without God, you're walking dead anyway. So then why do you hold onto what is not yours to begin with? Cowardice to the 10th degree. No wonder the Muslims are so hard to beat. We're a nation without faith; their faith in the extreme is to murder without thought of one's own life. WHO IS GOING TO WIN?! Pearl harbor, Kamikaze, anybody? There is no such thing as a win in that situation; death wins, and those that serve death, they got what they wanted, so they won. Now we serve life, but we cannot serve life by abiding by the rules of death! Have some courage! Besides, war will end up on our soil, eventually. Time to start snapping back to reality. Unplug yourself from your stupid little fantasies and start paying attention, or you'll have end up with shards of metal ripping your body to pieces from all angles. If you can't see that yet, then you're lost already. There is a quote from somebody somewhere, a japanese man, and he said, "I would never invade America. There would be a rifle behind every blade of grass."

He would be wrong now, and we'd be dead. Look at you.

10) You say you are sick of the lying, the cheating, the stealing, and all the crap. You don't gotta go sign up and go over there and start throwing missiles at people to win this war. Most wars are fought, not until the last death, but until the diplomats work it out! Now wars are fought to strategically cause fear in the DIPLOMATS. For they are the ones who will decide when war begins and ends. So, you can be even more productive by either becoming a diplomat, reaching out to other people with more diplomatic talents, or by picking up a rifle and finding someone. Whichever part of the body you associate with most when you play chess, that's what you do. Brain, Mouth, or Hand?

11) And for my 11th and final point, it is time. Now. You know it is. This is it. Everyone of you has been saying it in other threads, but you're too afraid to follow through with the time you saw coming. Consider the USA like Rome. It can either fall now, or we can choose to not repeat a mistake from the past. It is, indeed, ultimately up to you as an individual; and by the transitive property, as a group.

Calm down and seek wisdom.

reply to post by TarzanBeta

the geometric relativity of your words is thought-provoking to say the least.
however, i cannot agree that 'fear' is the manipulating factor in this particular scenario.

even after reviewing the other thread you mentioned and linked, this situation still appears hyperbolic rather euclidian.

thanks for the math talk, especially since geometry and i never really got along.
the refresher was a pleasant read.

as stated earlier, i just cannot accept the title of Supreme Hypocrite while demonizing others for what our own government does to its own people, daily ... can you ?

and, how would supporting POTUS in such an endeavor equate to him taking actions we demand ??
it's not like he has an 'election' looming ... why would he do anything the people demand ??

when has the military EVER responded to what the civilians demand ??
no, Viet Nam doesn't count ... the soldiers refused to fight ... that had nothing to do with civilian demands or protests for that matter.

so, why is this CW incident so critical when it certainly isn't the first time and certainly won't be the last ??

reply to post by Honor93


Thank you.

You're taking responsibility for what you haven't done. That's the point. If the government is supposed to be by the people, and yet, as Mike says, the employees, have acted against the peoples' wishes, then how are we taking on the title of Supreme Hypocrite by taking action and taking our government back?

They're not very good employees if they just do what we say to get their election. That's like being a boss at a retail store and having your employees only do their jobs when you tell them its review time. Except when you're the boss, you're supposed to fire the workers that aren't doing their job. But if you will go back and read 6 & 7, then you will see the answer to your question.

The military used to be made up of the civilians. That was always the point. It's by the people for the people. The people in the military are still our brothers and sisters. We start acting like they are our brothers and sisters, and they will start obeying us like we are brothers and sisters. And by they, I really mean we, because we all have our roles to play; and no role is less important than the other, for if one link is weak, the whole chain is garbage. And right now, there are millions of links in this chain that have been successfully weakened by the twisting and the turning; allowing themselves to be duped by the media games.

As for Viet Nam, and the soldiers refused to fight, and their mothers and brothers and sisters rebelled. They were in agreement. If it weren't for that agreement, then the power would not have manifest.

This incident is so critical because Syria is not Afghanistan, neither is it Iraq, or any other small matter. This is a major military power we're talking about. This is not going to be a schoolyard fight at the monkey bars. This is a mid-west chewing tobacco duel at high-noon! And it's going to happen whether we like it or not. So therefore we must take initiative in this matter. If we do not then we will fail. 100%. And that failure will cost the world a whole lot more than what everyone is counting will be lost if we don't act immediately.

reply to post by Honor93


Oh, and fear is most definitely the manipulating factor here. If there were no fear, then people would act. Hesitation is evidence of fear. Bottom line, every time, forever.

Come up with an event wherein hesitation does not equal fear and I will concede that you are right.

reply to post by TarzanBeta

thank you for your replies.

addressing this post first, i disagree.

fear is something that comes and goes, even when at its peak.
fear is an emotion, not a state of being.

is it ever a truth that one who fears death equally fears life ??

as one who has had to fire live ammo at another human, your last statement brings many quetions to mind.

i've asked myself many times, in the moment of hestitation before pulling the trigger, was it awareness, training, control and patience being exercised or was it 'fear'.

in all honesty, i believe it was a bit of all of the above.

clearly, fear is a factor or i wouldn't have drawn my weapon.
however, before pulling the trigger, i also felt an overwhelming sense of control, because ultimately, it is a choice to fire or not.

do i believe that moment of hesitation was equal to or evidence of fear ??
no, not a chance.
was fear a driving force ?
absolutely.

so, your statement reads ... "Come up with [color=amber]an event wherein hesitation does not equal fear"
well, the above does it for me and it's not something i 'came up with', it's something i experienced.

concession is irrelevant as our perceptions may be entirely opposite.

if i were to agree with your statement, then it would follow that i had been trained to be fearful and i just don't believe that at all.

now, i do realize that on the world stage, an experience such as mine, happens thousands of times, over and over, in all parts of the world. however, to accept that each of those independant incidents occurred under the same blanket of fear, is just beyond reasonable.

to me, hesitation does not equal fear, rather, hesitation equals an invitation.
some may ask ... an invitation to what ??
and my answer would be, that depends on you.

rationality is seldom immediate in any given situation.
hesitation encourages rational thoughts to present themselves and potentially disrupt the 'fear-filled' knee-jerk reactions so often seen from sea to boiling sea.

as an athlete, hesitation seldom relates to fear.
as a student, hesitation occasionally relates to fear.
as a human, hesitation should never relate to fear.
fear is in a class all by itself.

it's interesting that as a board/card game player, hesitation is viewed as 'strategy', whereas in video gaming, hesitation is often viewed as a death sentence ... weird how that works, huh ?

Originally posted by TarzanBeta
There is a quote from somebody somewhere, a japanese man, and he said, "I would never invade America. There would be a rifle behind every blade of grass."

He would be wrong now, and we'd be dead. Look at you.

10) You say you are sick of the lying, the cheating, the stealing, and all the crap. You don't gotta go sign up and go over there and start throwing missiles at people to win this war. Most wars are fought, not until the last death, but until the diplomats work it out! Now wars are fought to strategically cause fear in the DIPLOMATS. For they are the ones who will decide when war begins and ends. So, you can be even more productive by either becoming a diplomat, reaching out to other people with more diplomatic talents, or by picking up a rifle and finding someone. Whichever part of the body you associate with most when you play chess, that's what you do. Brain, Mouth, or Hand?


Calm down and seek wisdom.

Holy Smokes TarzanBeta,

I see your membership dates back to 2006
I thought the troll wave of 2011 had driven off all the eternal thinkers.

It's really good to hear your voice. You are saying it better than I do.

/humble thanks


Mike

This could be the most nonsensical opening post I have read in some time on ATS.

Give in to the machine, you are a part of it. Go were it takes you, and report back.

reply to post by mikegrouchy


Ya know…Mike….you make a good argument, brother.

It really takes a little imagination to imagine the view point of future generations. I’d bet the Vietnam generation in US thought the spread of communism in Asia would ruin the world. With China owning most of US debt, hindsight shows us how foolish that idea was!!! [end sarcasm….for you newbies]

I think you're right. The reason I oppose action in Syria is because of the thugs in US making the call. I have to second guess everything they decide because nothing up to this point has been right. But I do look forward to a day when piece of crap Theocrats, Communists, Socialists, Marxists, etc don't have have WMD's.

S&F!!!!!!

reply to post by mikegrouchy

Maybe you should go on over there and do it yourself, instead of send someone else to do it like the tards who run this country. I wondered that while I was scared for my own life and losing fluids in a combat zone, why, if they wanna have a scuffle, they don't just set up a boxing ring and settle it one on one. I was hoping they were going to do that when they found Saddam in a spider-hole, old George would have gotten his stupid ass kicked, and nobody else would have to die, be maimed, or psychologically scarred for most of the rest, or the rest of their lives.

reply to post by mikegrouchy
DBL POST

reply to post by Signals


Don't fool with tarzanbeta! He's a minstrel prophet from a post apocalyptic future. He knows what you'll say before you even do.

reply to post by mikegrouchy


Hi Mike,
May I tread in lightly, my sentence is as yours, only with a question mark.

Why should we demand military action on Syria?

Feel free to give a lengthy explanation.

reply to post by MyHappyDogShiner

Maybe you should go on over there and do it yourself, instead of send someone else to do it like the tards who run this country. I wondered that while I was scared for my own life and losing fluids in a combat zone, why, if they wanna have a scuffle, they don't just set up a boxing ring and settle it one on one. I was hoping they were going to do that when they found Saddam in a spider-hole, old George would have gotten his stupid ass kicked, and nobody else would have to die, be maimed, or psychologically scarred for most of the rest, or the rest of their lives.

Much respect to you for your sacrifice/service.

Your hypothetical is silly but I get the sentiment (and Bush would have beaten Saddam’s fat arse).


I don’t agree with entering Syria…AT ALL!!

But I get the OP’s twist. I think (in hindsight) we will one day regret not f-ing up ALL of these two bit regimes to preserve human life for future generations. I think Bush had that mentality. I’m not confident Obama is on my side.

[edit to add] I served under Clinton and Bush. I felt much better about our direction under Bush. I didn’t find it amusing being shot at in Bosnia with orders to NOT give change for the purchases the Serbians made. That fat Newt Gingrich-looking bastard Milošević killed a LOT of people.

Originally posted by burntheships
reply to post by mikegrouchy

 

Hi Mike,
May I tread in lightly, my sentence is as yours, only with a question mark.

Why should we demand military action on Syria?

. [color=gold] Feel free to give a lengthy explanation.

Sorry, emotional down load there,
/sarcasm
what? A ten page thread isn't lengthy enough.
/end sarcasm


1)
I feel we are being played. TPTB have had long enough to factor in the Conspiracy Realists
into their equations, and they are counting on us being against this action.


2)
Out of all the lies and deceptions fed us over the past two generations, nothing compares
to the use of chemical weapons. If we act on this one issue, we will be in the right.


3)
One of the self justifying motives of elites is that they feel the public cannot be trusted with
serious decisions when it maters most. This is a serious decision and it maters a lot


4)
When every everyone "just knows", or everyone "feels the same" is when I get suspicious
that the subliminals are at work or that people are not actually thinking before they act.


5)
There maybe only 10% of the population of America that really knows how horrible the
leaders of many of those Middle Eastern country are, that the cries of "Hypocrisy" thrown
at America are laughably naïve, but I'm confident that it is enough.


6)
I don't trust the UN inspectors, I don't trust the FBI experts, and I feel that other groups
have been compromised. I demand that we send the Army, that they take samples
and that the samples be sent to a wide variety of labs. All done publicly and publish
results available openly.



7)
The era of Secret powers, Secret Intelligence, Secret Agencies,
and Secret documents must end. It is anathema to both America,
and to the American Way. If we shy away from this all the holders
of secret power will say to each other "see, they don't want to
know."


8)
All the skepticism, mistrust, and resistance has been our biggest asset, as Conspiracy
Realist, up till now. If we can't show the self awareness to change course over an issue
that is nothing like the other ones before it, we risk becoming a cliché.


Those are my reasons.
I would like to say something about all the emotionality I have seen in other threads.
If I may.


Some have said "Saddam used chems, we didn't care then"
To that I say, shut up you weekend theorist. It is never too late to care, it is never
to late to start a thread, make a video, or even draw a picture showing how horrible
it was, how it shouldn't have happened, and how your are really really against it.
But no, your type always use something from somewhere else to attack people
dealing with things right here an now.


Some have said "The west are hypocrites"
Blow it out your ear. If a single one of those tyrannical leaders you are so fond of
defending had to put up with the media scrutiny and public derision we casually
heap on our leaders, their heads would explode. They look good because they
keep so many secrets, and no one knows where the bodies are buried.


I hope I have made my position a tad bit clearer.


Mike

reply to post by mikegrouchy


Sadly with more than one billion US tax payer dollars to support Syrian people and rebels for the last 2 years, we can pretty much deduce that it was US tax payer dollars under the Obama administration that funded the chemical attack on the people.

Sooooo, I demand that the Obama administration including congress should be held accountable for the crimes against Humanity in the country of Syria

I don't pay taxes so the corporate government can go and kill people in the countries of their interest due to financial expectations.

Down with the war machine.

Originally posted by MyHappyDogShiner
reply to post by mikegrouchy

 

Maybe [color=gold] you should go on over there and do it yourself, instead of send someone else to do it like the tards who run this country. I wondered that while I was scared for my own life and losing fluids in a combat zone, why, if they wanna have a scuffle, they don't just set up a boxing ring and settle it one on one. I was hoping they were going to do that when they found Saddam in a spider-hole, old George would have gotten his stupid ass kicked, and nobody else would have to die, be maimed, or psychologically scarred for most of the rest, or the rest of their lives.

Didn't even make it to the bottom of page one,
in a ten page thread did you.
Where I link to some of my experience "over there"

/head shake

But thanks for the bump none the less.


Mike

Originally posted by marg6043
reply to post by mikegrouchy

 

Sadly with more than one billion US tax payer dollars to support Syrian people and rebels for the last 2 years, we can pretty much deduce that it was US tax payer dollars under the Obama administration that funded the chemical attack on the people.

Sooooo, I demand that the Obama administration including congress should be held accountable for the crimes against Humanity in the country of Syria

I don't pay taxes so the corporate government can go and kill people in the countries of their interest due to financial expectations.

Down with the war machine.

Take control of the war machine I say.

Abdicating our responsibility by wishing it to go away
hasn't worked for 40 years.

We should demand action.
Not vague, bomb dropping action,
but specific, we want evidence and we want it in the possession of the public, action.

A war machine is just like a war horse.
It's not the horse, it's who's riding it.

Mount the horse with us, and we can ride it where We want, not where the media tells us too.



See I would join you in demanding indictments except for one thing.
We are not in possession of any actual evidence at this moment, are we.


Mike

reply to post by TarzanBeta

regarding #6
we disagree in this statement

The only way that the people are going to regain their authority in this country is to take it back from within.

i am not a fan of the 'within' theory as that is exactly what got us here.
i do not believe you can change this system by participating IN it.

i've known many to die trying and to me, such a theory is simply insane at this point.
if we are talking little league or football, i might agree
however, consider football and the newest news regarding repetitive hits ... how many have suffered and/or died before we got to a point where the issue is recognized or addressed.
how many $Billions$ have never touched the health of the 'stock' ??

sorry, age and cynicism won't permit me to share your view.

after that opening in #6, the rest is futile as far as i'm concerned.
ppl are too occupied to avoid walking into walls, ditches and fountains to notice what is happening under their own noses, hence, this ...

people will always be watching for the correct procedures

is a pipedream.
(a good one but a fantasy all the same)

see the Macondo oill well as an example.
heck, Fukushima is a gift that keeps on giving
thanks, but no thanks.

you seem convinced that some form of war is inevitable and perhaps you're right but, i don't believe its time is now.

and, quite frankly, i found this rather insulting.

so start learning how to be real men and women and do something real; for once in 30 years

do you even know how many of those 30 years we have NOT been at war ???

the ppl were behind Bush after 9/11, weren't they ?
the ppl were behind Reagan during Iran/Contra, weren't they ?
the ppl were behind Clinton during Bosnia, weren't they ?

i could go on but surely you can see the error in this theory ?

here's another thing, just off the cuff ...
the PLANET is being attacked every day by Fukushima, where's the outrage ???


as for #7 ...
we are so far beyond forcing this government to respond it downright embarrassing.

atm, i would prefer to wipe the slate clean and start over.
i can't think of one that is worthy of re-hire, can you ?
there may be a few, but they could be re-hired just as easily after the slate is wiped-clean, first.

speaking of that democratic process ... it's getting late in the cycle, where are the 'runners' ??
Palin threw her hat in the race nearly 3yrs ahead of the vote.
it's Sept, the 2016 elections are only 26 months away ... where's the hype ??

nah, i just don't see the rah-rah, our reputation is at stake, rhetoric, including any real concern for the Syrian ppl.
do tell, how does using the Syrian ppl to re-claim our government work exactly ?
and how would such an act be in defense of our nation ??

as the story goes, Supreme Hypocrite would be the only label that fits.

if i may ask you this ... why are you convinced that some form of war is necessary ?
and ... is this a tactical or religious conclusion ?