Priests Urge Nancy Pelosi to Condemn Abortion or Leave the Catholic Church

reply to post by FlyersFan


Nancy Pelosi isn't pro-abortion. She is pro-choice. You know, pro-free will!?

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
I don't see the church of Islam trying to force their beliefs in law and trying to make everyone else live according to their morals. If I did, I would "rag on" them, too.

Really? Sharia law .... that's imaginary? The 'Islamic morals police' in Iran?
The Islamic laws in Saudi Arabia that forbid a bible or rosary from being brought into the country?
Etc etc ...

The 'church' of Islam ... a religious organization with distinctive doctrines ... it is certainly integrating itself into the laws of lands at an alarming speed. Just because you can't point to a Vatican LIke office with Islam, doesn't mean that it doesn't have it's claws and hooks into rule of law in different countries. However, with the Catholic Church, the exact opposite is true. Secular rule of law (thank god for secular rule of law) keeps it out of national laws and even so called 'catholic countries' like Ireland are dropping the church based laws from the laws of the land.

Originally posted by windword
Reincarnation was an acceptable church doctrine, up until the year 553 when Emperor Justinius, not the Pope, banned it.

You're citing a New Age religious source who has no idea what he's talking about. Origen believed in the immortality and pre-existence of the soul (which was a common Jewish belief,) not in reincarnation, and neither reincarnation or the pre-existence of the soul has ever been an orthodox church teaching.

Originally posted by windword
Nancy Pelosi isn't pro-abortion. She is pro-choice. You know, pro-free will!?

Oh just stop. She's pro-abortion. She thinks it's just fine for people to have.
She wants her cake and she wants to eat it too.
The priests are telling her .. pick one or the other. She can't have both.
It's their job to say that. If she doesn't want to hear it ... she can leave the church.
Her choice.

Pelosi Actually Cites Her Catholicism in Defense of Abortion

reply to post by FlyersFan

Originally posted by FlyersFan
Really? Sharia law .... that's imaginary? The 'Islamic morals police' in Iran?
The Islamic laws in Saudi Arabia that forbid a bible or rosary from being brought into the country?

Iran is a theocracy. Are they trying to force us (American citizens) to behave according to their religious law?

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by windword
Reincarnation was an acceptable church doctrine, up until the year 553 when Emperor Justinius, not the Pope, banned it.

You're citing a New Age religious source who has no idea what he's talking about. Origen believed in the immortality and pre-existence of the soul (which was a common Jewish belief,) not in reincarnation, and neither reincarnation or the pre-existence of the soul has ever been an orthodox church teaching.

What's the difference?

Are you claiming that Origen isn't responsible for these quotes?

"Each soul enters the world strengthened by the victories or weakened by the defects of its past lives. Its place in this world is determined by past virtues and shortcomings." De Principalis.

"Is it not more in accordance with common sense that every soul for reasons unknown — I speak in accordance with the opinions of Pythagoras, Plato and Empedokles — enters the body influenced by its past deeds? The soul has a body at its disposal for a certain period of time which, due to its changeable condition, eventually is no longer suitable for the soul, whereupon it changes that body for another." Contra Celsum."

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by windword
Nancy Pelosi isn't pro-abortion. She is pro-choice. You know, pro-free will!?

Oh just stop.

She's pro-abortion. She thinks it's just fine for people to have.
She wants her cake and she wants to eat it too.
The priests are telling her .. pick one or the other. She can't have both.
It's their job to say that. If she doesn't want to hear it ... she can leave the church.
Her choice.

Pelosi Actually Cites Her Catholicism in Defense of Abortion

The Blaze???? Pulllleeez!

No one is pro-abortion. However, according to your precious Catholic doctrine, most birth control causes abortion, so by your definition any man or woman, politician, doctor etc., who is pro-birth control is also pro abortion.

You just can't win with Catholics! They're driven to send women back to the dark ages.

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic

You just narrowed the paramaters to just America and not government in general?
Okay ... America is a secular rule of law country. (thank god).
It keeps fundamentalist Christian, Catholic, Jewish, and Islamic law out of government.
There are groups of muslims trying to get their rules installed just as there are Christians.
If you are not happy with Catholics who try ... then you should be just as unhappy with the muslims.
Muslim Brotherhood ... CAIR ... Islamic Circle of North America ... Those groups try just like
the fundamentalist Protestants and Catholics try.

Originally posted by windword
The Blaze????

The quote is accurate. She said it.

No one is pro-abortion.

Pelosi is pro-abortion. You can't spin that away.

according to your precious Catholic doctrine ...

Don't even go there. You don't know what my spiritual beliefs are.
Just because I know what the Catholic church teaches, doesn't mean it is my belief.
I also know where Mormons get 'baptism of the dead'. It doesn't mean I believe in it.
I also know what Buddhists believe about Karma. It doesn't mean I believe in it.
So don't say 'your precious Catholic doctrine' ... cuz' you haven't got a clue what I believe in.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by windword
The Blaze????

The quote is accurate. She said it.

What quote?

No one is pro-abortion.

Pelosi is pro-abortion. You can't spin that away.

Such hyperbole!

according to your precious Catholic doctrine ...

Don't even go there. You don't know what my spiritual beliefs are.
Just because I know what the Catholic church teaches, doesn't mean it is my belief.
I also know where Mormons get 'baptism of the dead'. It doesn't mean I believe in it.
I also know what Buddhists believe about Karma. It doesn't mean I believe in it.
So don't say 'your precious Catholic doctrine' ... cuz' you haven't got a clue what I believe in.

"Your" as in the doctrine you are presenting, defending and defining. I really don't care what you really believe. I care about the topic that we're discussing.

Originally posted by windword
in the doctrine you are presenting, defending and defining. I really don't care what you really believe. I care about the topic that we're discussing.

People present information all the time. It doesn't mean they believe in it.
People present definitions all the time. It doesn't mean they believe in it.

I defend the facts ...
- Pelosi is, of her own free will, defining herself as Catholic.
- The job of the Catholic priest is to tell the Catholics what the faith teaches and what is expected.
- Pelosi has to pick one or the other ... she can't have her cake and eat it too. That's the teaching from the Catholic Church which SHE DECIDED to belong to.

That's hardly me defending 'my precious Catholic doctrine'.
That's just stating the facts.

reply to post by FlyersFan


Respectfully, faith and doctrine are two different things. One can "keep the faith" and disagree with certain doctrine.

reply to post by buster2010

When it comes to religion people pick and choose what they want to follow in them. These groups need to learn their religion does not say what is law in this nation.

the reporter's question was essentially "what is the difference between killing a 23 week old child, and killing one that is still inside the mother?".

pelosi chose to ignore this.

when it comes to how laws apply, people pick and choose as well. why is the murder of a pregnant woman and her unborn child a double homicide, yet abortion legal? an unborn child is a person in some situations, and disposable in others.

"reproductive health" my arse.

reply to post by windword


Here is the most succinct summary of what Catholics believe in. It is the Nicene Creed.

The Nicene Creed

It is also known as the profession of faith. Have a look at it for further elaboration on what you mentioned to me in your previous post. Faith and religious doctrine go together. The religious doctrines provide the very foundation for that faith. At least as I see it. As far as anti-abortion doctrine is concerned? The Catholic Church is very clear on how grave it is, and it is non-negotiable. To get the full scope of the position of the Catholic Church regarding abortion? Please take a look at the link below. It is straight out of the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

Abortion

Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable. Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law:

So, since the inception of the Catholic Church nearly two-thousand-years ago this core doctrine has remained unchanged, and is "unchangeable."

reply to post by Jakes51


Jake,

I'm sorry, but there is nothing in the Nicean Crede about abortion or birth control.

First Council of Nicea (325)
We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father. Through him all things were made. For us and for our salvation he came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, and was made man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered death and was buried. On the third day he rose again in accordance with the Scriptures; he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father. With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets. We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

I don't see any place where Nancy Pelosi has defied the Nicean Crede.

Abortion wasn't banned until 211 CE.

No evidences exists for the illegality of abortion under the Roman republic. Attitudes changes with the spread of Christianity and around 211 CE emperors Septimius Severus and Caracalla banned abortion as infringing on parental rights; temporary exile was the punishment. This new attitude is reflected in the third century legal compilation Pauli sententiae (attributed to Julius Paulus Prudentissimus):

[T]hose who administer a beverage for the purpose of producing abortion, or of causing affection, although they may not do so with malicious intent, still, because the act offers a bad example, shall, if of humble rank, be sent to the mines; or, if higher in degree, shall be relegated to an island, with the loss of a portion of their property. If a man or a woman should lose his or her life through such an act, the guilty party shall undergo the extreme penalty.
en.wikipedia.org...

There is no evidence that 1st century Christians had a common doctrine on the issue of abortion.

Christianity and abortion has a long and complex history. There is scholarly disagreement on how early Christians felt about abortion. Some scholars have concluded that early Christians took a nuanced stance on what is now called abortion, and that at different and in separate places early Christians have taken different stances. Other scholars have concluded that early Christians considered abortion a sin at all stages; though there is disagreement over their thoughts on what type of sin it was and how grave a sin it was held to be, it was seen as at least as grave as sexual immorality.[1 Some early Christians believed that the embryo did not have a soul from conception, and consequently opinion was divided as to whether early abortion was murder or ethically equivalent to murder.
en.wikipedia.org...

Originally posted by windword

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by windword

You just can't win with Catholics! They're driven to send women back to the dark ages.

You dont think in a 100 years time, that people wont look back on the number of abortions carried out by women, in our society and view US as being the dark ages?

we wont be talked about as women of a great generation, we'll be viewed asd mass muderers.

I'm not even Catholic, and i can see how we are going to viewed.

You dont think in a 100 years time, that people wont look back on the number of abortions carried out by women, in our society and view US as being the dark ages?

we wont be talked about as women of a great generation, we'll be viewed asd mass muderers.

I'm not even Catholic, and i can see how we are going to viewed.

Originally posted by windword

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by windword
Reincarnation was an acceptable church doctrine, up until the year 553 when Emperor Justinius, not the Pope, banned it.

You're citing a New Age religious source who has no idea what he's talking about. Origen believed in the immortality and pre-existence of the soul (which was a common Jewish belief,) not in reincarnation, and neither reincarnation or the pre-existence of the soul has ever been an orthodox church teaching.

What's the difference?

Are you claiming that Origen isn't responsible for these quotes?

Well, I went to find them in Origen's writings so that I could see the context and the funny thing is is that when I search for a unique string, what comes back is the web site that you linked to, not the writings of Origen.

"Each soul enters the world strengthened by the victories"

"suitable for the soul, whereupon it changes that body for another"

Here is Origen's chapter in De Principalis on souls, and I find nothing in there remotely close to your quote, so no, I do not believe that he wrote that.

reply to post by windword


I know there is no reference to abortion in the Nicene Creed, and the link was provided to show exactly what Catholics believe. Just a reference to the points stated in your previous reply. She is actually in violation of the creed, because it say "I believe in one holy catholic and apostolic church." Her position on abortion violates the teachings of the Catholic Church. Did you read the Catechism link I posted? In there, you would have found the complete explanation, and foundation of their position. Not some abridged version of it.

In addition to the Church's position on abortion, the Catechism also mentions the very foundation of their position. It cites the 5th Commandment, and the words of Christ according to Matthew 5:21-22. When you click on the the link look to right of the quote and there is a number. Scroll down to the bottom of the page you will see the Biblical reference associated with that number.

ARTICLE 5
THE FIFTH COMMANDMENT

You shall not kill.

You have heard that it was said to the men of old, "You shall not kill: and whoever kills shall be liable to judgment." But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment.

As for your link about the secular foundation of the legality of abortion, and its emergence in the Roman Empire? We are not talking about that, but why the clergy is outspoken about Congresswoman, Nancy Pelosi, and her record on abortion in regards to her so-called Catholic faith. That is the crux of the matter as I see it.

Futhermore, your own link mentions that early Christians thought of abortion as a "grave sin." Perhaps, the consensus of how to interpret it was mixed, but it was still as grave then as it is now. We can play semantics all day, and that is all well and good. I only mentioned the facts straight from the source, and feel free to formulate your own opinion about it. Hopefully it can alleviate some confusion about the topic? Thanks for your response!

If Pelosi is threatened with dis-fellowship, then are these political pro-life Catholics also at risk for ex-communication from the Catholic church? Although not on the following list that were 2% or less, according to the Catholic church any percentage would be intolerable. These political leaders tout the pro-choice banner but I don't see them targeted by the Catholic church.

The percentage next to them is their pro-life rating since 1997, as compiled by National Right to Life. Information prior to 1997 was unavailable at press time. They are listed from the highest pro-life rating to the lowest.

*Denotes incoming congressman

**Denotes that they previously served, left Congress for a time, and won election and will be part of the 112th Congress that convenes in January. Their NRLC scores are for their previous tenures (including only votes cast in 1997 or later)

Senate

100%—Mike Johanns, R-Neb.
100%—Jim Risch, R-Idaho
100%—David Vitter, R-La.
94%—Pat Toomey, R-Pa.**
68%—Lisa Murkowski, R-Alaska
50%—Robert Casey Jr., D-Pa.
31%—Mary Landrieu, D-La.
23%—Susan Collins, R-Maine
11%—Patrick Leahy, D-Vt.
4%—John Kerry, D-Mass.

Read more: www.ncregister.com...

Here's John Kerry's position on constitutional right of abortion but I don't see where the Catholic church is going after him.

" I’ll answer it straight to America. I’m not going to appoint a judge to the Court who’s going to undo a constitutional right, whether it’s the 1st Amendment, or the 5th Amendment, or some other right that’s given under our Constitution. And I believe that the right of choice is a constitutional right. I don’t intend to see it undone. Clearly, the president wants to leave in ambivalence or intends to undo it. " (his attack on Bush possibly undoing Roe v Wade.

If that ain't shouting it from the mountain tops in support of abortion, then I don't know what is. And again, the Church is hypocritical and cherry picking it's candidate to persecute.