Can you Deny Reincarnation exists?

Originally posted by ProfessorChaos
reply to post by Akragon

 

Everyone has learned from someone else, if you have read various theories on philosophy and incorporating it into your belief system, are you not doing precisely that? Believing what others have taught?

this is true...

Though I think you have to understand where im coming from here...

There are those that learn from others preaching... and those that learn from reading themselves...

For instance... You were "taught" that God is love... its a basic doctrine throughout all sects of Christianity...

IF God IS Love... As stated by John...

How can God Women and children?

This is something NO Christian sect will show you... The only way one can find this out is to read it because it is never "Preached"... ever!

Yet it is in the bible...

One could say "God has his reasons" but IF God is love there is no reason for killing innocence....

Love can be defined as "Selflessness"... Yet this happens through out the OT, because this God demands people follow him...

which is in fact "Selfishness" and that is NOT love... even according to the bible

Jesus vs The Imposter

reply to post by purplemonkeydishwasher

So- praise him for an infinite number of years? Holy Cow o_o -- the Goddess might get jealous. I am not so sure you have learned your micro/macro lessons yet. I suggest you also study history (herstory? lol) a bit more fervently --- you are missing out on a lot of excellent philosophy and knowledge by constraining your views to a religion which has been perpetrated by a very (handily proven) Ego driven Patriarch, with holes in its Great Story worse than most Hollywood films. Granted- they are both based on esoteric/astrotheological stories, for the most part. lol anyway, been fun. I hope you keep learning.

Yes it has been fun, but I will mention that not following other philosophical teachings does not necessarily indicate a lack of study, it simply means that though I acknowledge their views, I disagree with them.

reply to post by ProfessorChaos


The two of you are actually nicely discussing perceptional reality differences. Great to see discussion rather than arguing!

Where are you? Some would say their State, others their Country. You may say your house while others say the Study or bedroom. You may even say sitting at my computer. All answers are correct, it is only perceptional bias that gives different answers.

In or out of a doorway? I prefer going through a doorway. If I stand sideways in a doorway then I am in both places at the same time. I can see both places at the same time. I can enjoy both places at the same time. If you fall to sleep in the TV room, is not the TV room your bedroom for that sleep?

Why can't you be both in the pool and out of the pool at the same time. In fact you mostly have to be since you would drown otherwise.

Re-incarnation was taken out of the bible in an effort to distinguish Christian from the (new to them) Teachings of Buddha. The first step on the path of enlightenment is to know ones self. It is one hell of a step!

Humans consider time as linear. That is a perception from our viewpoint. If you do not do well in this lifetime you are sent back as a lesser creature. Think of all those ex-wives coming back as cockroaches. Heady thought.

Our entire lives are a perception. Happy or miserable is a perception. Love and hate are simple perceptions. Love the person / hate their actions is an alternative that provides both at the same time.

While you consider perceptions the enlightened go beyond to perceive reality in its true form. Some believe that this can only exist when we are in heaven.

People tend to think in either / or rather than in possibilities. Is the glass half full or half empty. Perhaps the truth is that the glass itself is twice the size it needs to be!

Nice discussion.

P

reply to post by Akragon


I will save you too many quotes. Instead, I will make the connections.

1 Kings 17 shows two things about Elijah.

1) He controls water and dew. Dew is the symbolism for water separated into individual drops. The water itself is from a larger body of water (Adam / First Soul of the Son of God). When the sun ruses, the water is evaporated back up. It then falls back again. All of this from the very first verse of 1 Kings 17.

2) The widow woman at Zarephath: What is the meaning of Zarephath? Refinement. Why are we immersed (Baptized) into the waters of life? To repent of sin. It's a place of refinement. Elijah had shut off the water. The woman's son died. Elijah then takes the boy UP to his chamber of rest, then back down to mother living. This is Baptism. Mater is mother, or the material world. It is the matrix (Womb) of the refinery.

Compare this to the dew of Isaiah:

Isaiah 26

19 But your dead will live, Lord;
their bodies will rise—
let those who dwell in the dust
wake up and shout for joy—
your dew is like the dew of the morning;
the earth will give birth to her dead.
20 Go, my people, enter your rooms
and shut the doors behind you;
hide yourselves for a little while
until his wrath has passed by.
21 See, the Lord is coming out of his dwelling
to punish the people of the earth for their sins.
The earth will disclose the blood shed on it;
the earth will conceal its slain no longer.

When you enter your rest, you go to your chamber above. The dew of the morning is birth into the world (Baptism). Here is my thread on baptism (Involution and evolution) for the purpose of rising to new life. Involutin and Evolution

Did Job know this truth:

Job 19

25 I know that my redeemer[c] lives,
and that in the end he will stand on the earth.[d]
26 And after my skin has been destroyed,
yet[e] in[f] my flesh I will see God;
27 I myself will see him
with my own eyes—I, and not another.
How my heart yearns within me!

Did Paul know?

Acts 24

I believe everything that is in accordance with the Law and that is written in the Prophets, 15 and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. 16 So I strive always to keep my conscience clear before God and man.

He knew that the resurrection would be of the previous dead. In 1 Corinthians, we find out that Jesus was the first fruits of that new man. He was the first born of the dead that had fallen asleep. We, who are many, are from ONE SOUL.

1 Corinthians 10

And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ? 17 Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all share the one loaf.

The heel of that one loaf is Christ. Adam is the Father (Son of God) and the last Adam (Christ). Those 'born again' after Christ are the resurrection from the dead to new life. You must be born again.

1 Corinthians 15

If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”[f]; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we[g] bear the image of the heavenly man.

Mankind loops. Those you raise become your future fathers and sons. Adam was the father and mankind were the forefathers of Jesus. Jesus becomes the firstfruit (New Man / Adam) that becomes the new Father of future mankind. In reality, the dew is of one soul. The Son of God is rising to new life and is the prodigal son returning to the father.

How about Satan. Did Satan know this fact?

Job 2

3 Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil. And he still maintains his integrity, though you incited me against him to ruin him without any reason.”

4 “Skin for skin!” Satan replied.

What does a snake do? He sheds a skin, but the inside is the same snake.

Why are we here in this refinery? The beast is to be sacrificed in the temple. The body is the temple and the veil of the temple is what keeps us from seeing the process.

The Shepherd pulls the wool over the eyes of the sheep. He then sheers the wool (Sin) from the sheep and returns it as a Robe (New Body) and Crown (New Mind). See this post: LINK

Out of room, but there are more verses.

reply to post by pheonix358

Think of all those ex-wives coming back as cockroaches. Heady thought.

Bahahahaha!!

Do I detect wishful thinking?

reply to post by EnochWasRight


I knew i'd find you here my friend...

Thank you for chiming in Ed

Always a pleasure to hear from you

reply to post by Akragon


If you know and see Elijah in 1 Kings 17 as water baptism, then connect him to Elijah in Matthew 3. Jesus said that John the Baptism was Elijah returned.

Matthew 3

7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he said to them: “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8 Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. 9 And do not think you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. 10 The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.

He's telling the fallen leaders why they are immersed into the waters of life. They are immersed for the purpose of repentance. If water is not used properly, then fire must be used. Water puts out fire. The same sun that melts wax also hardens clay. What softens clay?

reply to post by Akragon


The same message of baptism is found in the linguistic morphology of Latin and Greek.

You can also get this from the Greek and Latin root Amni. Root morphology is the morphing of a root on the branch of the tree of knowledge.

Amni - River of Life

Amnio - Bowl that catches the blood of the sacrificed lamb.

Amnion - Sack surrounding the Amniotic Fluid in the womb.

Amniotic Fluid - Waters in the womb.

Amnesia - Condition of the waters (forgetfulness).

Amnesty - Forgiveness in a foreign land.

The purpose of the gospel is baptism and immersion of the Soul of the Son of Man. We are the Sons of God.

Acts 17

24 “The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands. 25 And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else. 26 From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. 27 God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. 28 ‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’ As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’[c]

29 “Therefore since we are God’s offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by human design and skill. 30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.”

Are the Sons confined to darkness here under the veil, with the wool over our eyes? Yes. Just ask Enoch:

Enoch One

41.8 For the shining Sun (Pater / Father) makes many revolutions; for a blessing and for a
curse. And the path of the journey of the Moon (Mater / Mother) is for the righteous light (NEW LIFE)
but for the sinners; darkness (NO LIFE). In the Name of the Lord, who has created a
division between light and darkness, and has divided the spirits of men, and
has established the spirits of the righteous, in the name of His
Righteousness.

41.9 For no Angel hinders, and no power is able to hinder, because the
judge sees them all, and judges them all Himself.

42.1 Wisdom found no place where she could dwell, and her dwelling was
in Heaven.

42.2 Wisdom went out, in order to dwell among the sons of men (Involution), but did
not find a dwelling; wisdom returned to her place, and took her seat in the
midst of the Angels.

42.3 And iniquity came out from her chambers; those whom she did not
seek she found, and dwelt among them, like rain in the desert, and like dew
on the parched ground.

---Compare this to those who fell to Earth from their first dwelling. They did not need wives to carry the life forward since they already had eternal life.

15.6 But you, formerly, were spiritual, living an eternal, immortal life, for
all the generations of the world.

15.7 For this reason I did not arrange wives for you; because the dwelling
of the spiritual ones is in Heaven.

Jude 1 describes these Angels

6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. 7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

Where are they kept in darkness? With mankind. They are our rulers.

Again, back to Paul:

Acts 24

I believe everything that is in accordance with the Law and that is written in the Prophets, 15 and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. 16 So I strive always to keep my conscience clear before God and man.

He knew the righteous and wicked would be raised together (Baptism / Resurrection).

Why?

Enoch One

1.1 These are the words of the blessing of Enoch; according to which he
blessed the chosen and righteous who must be present on the day of
distress, which is appointed, for the removal of all the wicked and impious.
1.2 And Enoch began his story and said: -

They are going to be removed. The righteous MUST (Required) be present with them. We are all in this together. Our day and Age was the entire reason Christ involved with us for this last day. He is the heel on either side of the loaf. The righteous are the body of Christ (the loaf).

1 Corinthians 10

...For we, who are many, are one loaf.

The heel crushes the head of Satan.

Genesis 3

15 ...he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel.”

edit on 16-3-2013 by EnochWasRight because: (no reason given)

reply to post by Akragon


Wow, that's pretty cruel of the Father then. His Son was sweating blood and praying in the garden that there could be another way for the redemption of man to be accomplished apart from the cross and the Father forgot to mention reincarnation.

Reincarnation is a fascinating topic and should definitely be reflected upon regardless ones' religious belief.
Personally, I have just began studying the Holy Bible (yes, I consider it to be holy and I suggest that it is obvious if one is familiar with the complexity of the Hebrew language) but the reason as to why I am studying it at all is because of my interest in existence, history, theology, mythology and culture.

In the light of the scriptures in the Holy Bible, even though I have not read it thoroughly as of yet, the way I see it is that everyone was incarnated in the beginning of time and are being reincarnated, time and time again until our spirit is completely in tune with God's creation and thus granted access into the kingdom of heaven, to live life in eternity as a divine spirit/angel in the presence and under the supervision of God, to assist every spirit along their journey as God's intention, from the very beginning was to have a family and that all of his sentient creations would be blessed to be in his presence, live with him and behold the true beauty of his creation at last.

I definitely wouldn't mind being a free spirit, a divine angel in the Creator's holy presence forever and assist my little brothers and sisters on their journey towards the heavens. I would be honored to say the least.

Hebrews 9:27 - "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment"

Can I deny that reincarnation exists(according to the bible)? YES(and not from that quote only either)

but I'm not a christian, I still dont believe in reincarnation, I do believe in the prophets and one GOD though, I wont go into the many reasons why I dont believe in reincarnation, suffice to say I think it is a load of dribble to put it nicely.

Originally posted by Templeton
reply to post by Akragon

 

You say that reincarnation is possible because literally all things are possible by God. I challenge your commitment to that stance.

Can God create a mountain so large that he himself cannot move it?

Even I can move any mountain that can be created by anything if I want to even if I have to move it one atom at a time. It only takes will and time. From my definition of god god can always move what is inside it since the thing that is created is inside it as a part.

Firstly, I am a Christian, raised as a Catholic, but I don't consider myself as a "practicing Catholic".

I do believe in God, and naturally, Jesus, but also am one that feels "if" God didn't exist, man would have invented him, as it turns out, it's an excellent control mechanism.

As to your query, all things are indeed possible through God, and actually if you literally believe the message that Jesus gave us, it was that, that power exists in all of us, if you have enough faith.

Also, in 1066AD, during the time of Constantine, when Rome realized that more and more tribes were adopting Christianity, that they felt they should also join, but make it something that they could use to control the masses. So, they went through the Bible, and omitted what they felt would make that control more difficult.

One of the things that was removed were references to Re-Incarnation, as if a person knew he could come back and relive his life to fix the mistakes in his previous life, he would be much harder to manage.

S&F for an interesting item to ponder!

reply to post by Haxsaw

Hebrews 9:27 - "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment"

Does this mean, each individual man dies?
Looking at the verb here translated "die", it has a slightly different meaning than the alternative word in the Greek that could have been used.
Also the word here translated as "men" can mean mankind in general.

Is this one person dying, then going to a personal judgment, or
is it that at some point mankind dies off in mass,
then there is one big general judgement that includes everyone?

It could be possible to see this from a reincarnationist point of view, everyone in the world having a set amount of time to go through a growing process, then a grading process to asses how everyone did.

reply to post by ctdannyd

Also, in 1066AD . . .

The Battle of Hastings from the Norman invasion of England.
Constantine was the Roman Emperor who reunited the two halves of the Empire.
That was in the first half of the Fourth Century.

reply to post by Akragon

Hebrews 9:27 is NOT in any way related to reincarnation... That chapter has NOTHING to do with reincarnation what so ever... It is not the subject being discussed...

No the chapter isn't about reincarnation; it's about Christ's atonement for us. That doesn't change what the writer to the Hebrews argues in verse 27, which is just as people die once and then comes judgement, so Christ only died once for our sins, and not continually. He draws and analogy.

The contents of the chapter doesn't change what the author implies. We live and die once. Then we're judged. Anyone that knows biblical theology as well will know that there is only one judgement.

The verses which you cite have nothing to do with the afterlife. They're about salvation. God can do all things which are in keeping with his being. Thus there are things that God can't do; he can't sin for example. He can't tempt anyone to sin either.

By denying salvation I don't deny the power of God, because God has said how things work. Unless you want to say that you are somehow denying God's power by saying that he can't sin.

Those verses aside, I will say that I deny reincarnation. Let's look at what Job has to say:

For I know that my Redeemer lives, and at the last he will stand upon the earth. And after my skin has been thus destroyed, yet in my flesh I shall see God, whom I shall see for myself, and my eyes shall behold, and not another. My heart faints within me! (19:25-27)

Job knew that he would be resurrected in his flesh. He knew that he himself would stand with his redeemer at the last day. With his own eyes he would see this. If there is reincarnation then he wouldn't experience this personally in his body. He was expecting this to happen to him, not some reincarnation of him sometime down the road.

From a biblical viewpoint, Job destroys the idea of reincarnation.

Originally posted by ProfessorChaos
reply to post by Akragon

 

Your post is an interesting play on words, but by stating that to deny the existence of reincarnation is to deny that with God all things are possible is incorrect.

Just because God COULD allow reincarnation to occur, does not mean that he does. Meaning that yes, with God, reincarnation is indeed possible, since He can do anything, yet it does not occur because he does not allow it to. Therefore, from the Christian perspective, yes, I can deny that reincarnation exists.

You have a hotline with god ? Can you quote god on that ?? Do you have a youtube video up with him going on record about this ?

Jesus is not god and the bible is made up from words of a man. I think you need a bit more to state what you just stated as actual fact. Which you cant.

reply to post by octotom


I don't see how the quote from Job exactly discounts reincarnation. How does his skin being destroyed equal him resurrecting in the same body? No skin means no body, so he would have to resurrect into a new body if his old one is "destroyed", right?

If anything, he is saying that your body will die but your spirit will not. I could just as easily interpret that as reincarnation as you can resurrection. In my mind the biblical "resurrection" is none other than reincarnation.

The parable of the rich man and Lazarus is a great source that points toward reincarnation in the bible, along with many other things. The only thing is, the world has been conditioned to read any mention of a "resurrection" within a false context.

Resurrection means reincarnation in my opinion.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


No, resurrection means the person's same body is restored and regenerated. Reincarnation would be a totally new and different body.