Can you Deny Reincarnation exists?

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Sorry, not into ancient fantasy novels. Especially those based on even more ancient Sumerian teachings.

P

reply to post by Akragon

Job 1
20 Then Job arose, and rent his mantle, and shaved his head, and fell down upon the ground, and worshipped,

21 And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the Lord gave, and the Lord hath taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord.

Maybe it would help to compare it against other scripture...

Ecclesiastes 5:15

15 As he came forth of his mother's womb, naked shall he return to go as he came, and shall take nothing of his labour, which he may carry away in his hand.

Ecclesiastes 12:7

7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

1 Timothy 6:7

7 For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out.

Can you Deny Reincarnation exists?,

UNFORTUNATELY .. my experience tells me that it probably exists.
And that's a shame ..because I'm really tired of being on this planet
and I certainly don't want to come back ... again ....


Ever since I was very young, I've had recurring dreams of being a child (5 or 6 years old) in England during WWII. In my dreams I'm on a playground and the airraid sirens go off. I look to my mother who is standing with her friends (my mother THEN .. not now). She and the women are all wearing 1940's style clothing. She says to ignore th sirens because they always go off and nothing happens. Then the next thing I know .. BOOM .. I'm blown up and dead.

Even to this day, the fire house siren or any siren like that gives me the willies ...


I just hope this is my last incarnation. I'm tired of it ...

Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by DarksDeception

 

Here's a little tip for interpreting scripture. Whenever you see the words in verse 15 below, immediately following, it means that Jesus is speaking in parables and nothing is as it seems.

Matthew 11:14-15

14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.

15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

When John was asked if he was indeed Elijah, John told them NO!

John 1:21

1 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.

Jesus was telling them that John would be paving the way for him, just like Elijah paved the way for Yahweh. John was Jesus' Elijah.

Do you remember your previous incarnation? Neither did John! He can only speak the truth that he remembers!

But I will comment that the traits and characteristics of previous incarnations, seem to follow at times to the next, as follows with Elijah and John:
John the Baptist: John's clothes were made of camel's hair, and he had a leather belt around his waist. (Matt. 3:4)
Elijah the prophet: He was a man with a garment of hair and with a leather belt around his waist. (2 Kings 1:8)

reply to post by Akragon

Im sorry but that is quite literally the Worst argument I've ever heard anyone give as far as "scriptural evidence" that reincarnation doesn't exist...

Thank you for your thorough rebuttal. I mean, yeah, it makes absolutely no sense that when Job said "his body" that he meant literally that body.

As for Job 1:21? To where is Job returning? Comparing Scripture it is clear that the hebraic thought is that we return to (the) dust. For example Psalm 90:3; Genesis 3:19.

reply to post by octotom


How does a soul turn into dust? The body turning to dust has nothing to do with where your soul goes after dying.

Energy cannot be created nor destroyed. Consciousness is PURE energy/light, meaning it cannot be destroyed, it can only be transformed. How does this "transformation" take place? Through spiritual evolution/reincarnation.

reply to post by DarksDeception


The type of clothes you described were typical for a prophet. Just like linen was typical dress for a priest.

Jesus said that Elijah had already come and that it was Elijah who first prophesied about the coming of John to pave the way for Jesus.

Matthew 3:1-3

3 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,

2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

That's also why John's father was told before John was born that he would come in the power and spirit of Elijah. Because Elijah prophesied of John's coming.

Once again...

Luke 3:2-4

2 Annas and Caiaphas being the high priests, the word of God came unto John the son of Zacharias in the wilderness.

3 And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;

4 As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

Originally posted by DarksDeception
reply to post by Haxsaw

 

For all the prophets and the law have prophesied until John. And if you are willing to receive it, he is Elijah who was to come. (Matt. 11:13-14)
And the disciples asked him, saying, "Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?"

But he answered them and said, "Elijah indeed is to come and will restore all things. But I say to you that Elijah has come already, and they did not know him, but did to him whatever they wished. So also shall the Son of Man suffer at their hand."

Then the disciples understood that he had spoken of John the Baptist." (Matt. 17:10-13)

Behold I will send you Elijah the prophet, before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord. (Mal. 4:5)

The Hebrew scriptures prophesied that Elijah himself - not someone like him or someone in the same ministry as him but Elijah himself - would return before the advent of the Messiah. Jesus declared John to be Elijah when he stated that Elijah has come.
John was Elijah himself which means that Elijah reincarnated as John the Baptist. And if this is true then reincarnation must belong once again in Christian theology. It also means that the concept of corpses crawling out of graves on Judgment Day can be discarded. OR...John was not Elijah reincarnated which means that Elijah himself did not return. And if this is true then either what is below is true:
Malachi's prophecy concerning Elijah's return to life before the coming of the Messiah failed to happen. This would mean that God does not keep his promise and that the Bible is fallible. OR Jesus was not the Messiah!

There are many other scriptures that confirm reincarnation within His word. I believe we are judged at the end of each life, and if we do not learn, we will live that life we judge. That is just a thought within me, and does not contradict scripture. If so, what a patient God we have

You got it right The passage about Elijah is a great one and is straight forward.

"But I say to you that Elijah has come already, and they did not know him..."

Originally posted by Akragon

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Akragon

 

Wow, that's pretty cruel of the Father then. His Son was sweating blood and praying in the garden that there could be another way for the redemption of man to be accomplished apart from the cross and the Father forgot to mention reincarnation.

So you're blaming his death on God?

That's a little twisted don't ya think?

Do you also believe Jesus was afraid of death?

Or was he afraid of what was about to happen to him in order that he die?

Even that chapter in Hebrews gives you your answer and as I've said it has absolutely nothing to do with reincarnation... HE had to die once... not be reborn...

We are not on the same level as him... IF we were on his level spiritually speaking, we would not need to incarnate at all...

That really didn't address my point at all Aaron.

Originally posted by pheonix358
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Sorry, not into ancient fantasy novels. Especially those based on even more ancient Sumerian teachings.

P

Well sure you are, that's how you ended up here in this forum.

Did you get lost somewhere perhaps?

reply to post by Akragon


I believe that reincarnation is a technique that is at God's disposal, but is never applied to mortals. Our existence is one of progression. We go from the physical to a state between physical and spiritual and ultimately to pure spirit existence.

As you stated, with God all things are possible, but I don't believe God would violate his own rules.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Not much of a victory if your children are still starving and suffering 2,000 years later, but to each his own I guess.

He didn't die on the cross to solve world hunger.

Why not?

If he fed 5,000 people with two fish and 5 loaves of bread then why can't he do the same now?

Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by DarksDeception

 

Here's a little tip for interpreting scripture. Whenever you see the words in verse 15 below, immediately following, it means that Jesus is speaking in parables and nothing is as it seems.

Matthew 11:14-15

14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.

15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

When John was asked if he was indeed Elijah, John told them NO!

John 1:21

1 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.

Jesus was telling them that John would be paving the way for him, just like Elijah paved the way for Yahweh. John was Jesus' Elijah.

Correct... john said no...

Though you don't think that the son of God... a man who remembered exactly where he came from would know a little more then John?

John said No.... Jesus said specifically "this IS Elijah"

He didn't say this is someone who resembles Elijah... He didn't say this is someone who came in the spirit of Elijah like many Christians say.... He said this IS him...

Maybe it would help to compare it against other scripture...

Ecclesiastes 5:15

15 As he came forth of his mother's womb, naked shall he return to go as he came, and shall take nothing of his labour, which he may carry away in his hand.

Ecclesiastes 12:7

7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

1 Timothy 6:7

7 For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out.

Actually yes... thank you my friend...

But it didn't help your case against reincarnation... it helped my argument .....

Thanks again

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Can you Deny Reincarnation exists?,

UNFORTUNATELY .. my experience tells me that it probably exists.
And that's a shame ..because I'm really tired of being on this planet
and I certainly don't want to come back ... again ....


Ever since I was very young, I've had recurring dreams of being a child (5 or 6 years old) in England during WWII. In my dreams I'm on a playground and the airraid sirens go off. I look to my mother who is standing with her friends (my mother THEN .. not now). She and the women are all wearing 1940's style clothing. She says to ignore th sirens because they always go off and nothing happens. Then the next thing I know .. BOOM .. I'm blown up and dead.

Even to this day, the fire house siren or any siren like that gives me the willies ...


I just hope this is my last incarnation. I'm tired of it ...

edit on 3/18/2013 by FlyersFan because: fixed quote

Ye know its funny... people seem to think reincarnation is this happy fuzzy thing...

Its so far from a happy thing.... Imagine having to start over as a child... having to learn everything all over again

I would say being reincarnated would suck... because it means you failed... and you have to try again

Many people these days even consider earth to be hell... I find life to be beautiful, but I sure as "hell" don't want to return

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by Akragon

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Akragon

 

Wow, that's pretty cruel of the Father then. His Son was sweating blood and praying in the garden that there could be another way for the redemption of man to be accomplished apart from the cross and the Father forgot to mention reincarnation.

So you're blaming his death on God?

That's a little twisted don't ya think?

Do you also believe Jesus was afraid of death?

Or was he afraid of what was about to happen to him in order that he die?

Even that chapter in Hebrews gives you your answer and as I've said it has absolutely nothing to do with reincarnation... HE had to die once... not be reborn...

We are not on the same level as him... IF we were on his level spiritually speaking, we would not need to incarnate at all...

That really didn't address my point at all Aaron.

It didn't?

Well lets address it a little more clearly then brother...

Do you believe reincarnation is some sort of redemption for man kind?

Or is it a logical punishment... as opposed to "hell" which has no logical basis behind it?

Your bible says you will get what you give... in this life or the life to come.

which is logical...

Hell, sheol, and tartarus, are all illogical IF the father is a loving merciful creator...

reply to post by Akragon


Are you going to prove Hell is illogical or just assert it arbitrarily? But lets go back to my point, if Christ was asking for another way other than the cross for the redemption of mankind why was His prayer ignored if reincarnation was a viable alternative?

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Not much of a victory if your children are still starving and suffering 2,000 years later, but to each his own I guess.

He didn't die on the cross to solve world hunger.

Why not?

If he fed 5,000 people with two fish and 5 loaves of bread then why can't he do the same now?

Because He died on the cross for man's redemption. To make atonement for all our sin. He fed the 5,000 to demonstrate His deity. He even complained that people were following Him for food and not for who He was that was feeding them. He wanted to demonstrate who He was, not merely to feed empty bellies.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Akragon

 

Are you going to prove Hell is illogical or just assert it arbitrarily? But lets go back to my point, if Christ was asking for another way other than the cross for the redemption of mankind why was His prayer ignored if reincarnation was a viable alternative?

A logical problem with hell

Part II

I could make tons of threads on that subject... but theres already far too many threads on Hell...

I think I have at least 5 myself

So back to your point....

IF you read what he said whilst he was "sweating blood"... You'll notice hes not asking for "another way" for the redemption of man kind.... He says "take this cup from me"

He's asking his Father to spare him from the upcoming torture...

And apparently the answer was NO...

Reincarnation wouldn't be enough.... John was reincarnated, and as Jesus said... NO ONE recognized him.... apparently even to this day for most people...

IF Jesus was reincarnated into another body... No one would recognise him just as no one recognised john...

He needed to return as himself... in the same body with all the scars for them to believe...

For him to PROVE without any doubt that life exists after death...

And they didn't believe him fully until that point... according to john

19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?

21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

Define reincarnation and its context. Are we using the traditional definition that one goes through continous life cycles in different carnal forms, such as animals, in accordance to the bad deeds in a previous life? Or are we discussing reincarnation in a sense that an individual's essence, commonly referred to as the soul or spirit, is installed into a new human body if lessons or themes were not learned?

I disagree with the former solely because if I was to be reincarnated as an eagle, what possible actions can I do that could determine the degradation or evolution of caliber in the next carnal form I take?

Originally posted by DelayedChristmas
Define reincarnation and its context. Are we using the traditional definition that one goes through continous life cycles in different carnal forms, such as animals, in accordance to the bad deeds in a previous life? Or are we discussing reincarnation in a sense that an individual's essence, commonly referred to as the soul or spirit, is installed into a new human body if lessons or themes were not learned?

I disagree with the former solely because if I was to be reincarnated as an eagle, what possible actions can I do that could determine the degradation or evolution of caliber in the next carnal form I take?

Personally I don't believe we usually incarnate into animals or things that could be considered a "lesser being"

Unless of course someone really screws up... Perhaps that might be something that a serial killer or rapist might be worthy of simply because they certainly are not worthy of being human...

Unfortunately though... this is not the purpose of this thread.... I didn't write this thread to define its context or discuss the in's and outs of reincarnation...

I wrote this thread in the hope that people will realise that its not only in the bible.... but it exists, and always has