My 180...

It will be no surprise to some on this board that I have been opposed to same-sex marriage (SSM) for quite some time. While I have not been an anti-SSM crusader and flooded many threads with my views, I have voiced my opinions in a number of threads on the issue. Sometimes I was met with agreement, other times I was met with ridicule, other times I was simply ignored. Such is what happens when you voice your opinions on a controversial topic that has a diverse membership.

Over the past two weeks, however, I have come to a realisation: I, as an individual, have no legitimate reason to oppose SSM. Although it was never a religious angle from which I was arguing, I have come to realise that even my secular reasons for denying same-sex couples the chance to marry do not hold weight. This has not been an easy decision; I have fought an internal dialogue to arrive at this conclusion and feel it is time to admit that in the past I was wrong.

Why the change in heart? To be concise: even though I am not gay, SSM still does not effect me or other straight people either way but will bring happiness and fulfillment to same-sex couples that do wish to get married. That is what it comes down to: making people happy when it does not come at the expense of other people's happiness. Because let's face it, if it were not for some ancient book telling people to oppose it, most people would have no legitimate reason for doing so.

I realise some members will view this change in attitude as weak and be disappointed that I am no longer "on their side" in relation to this issue. To those people I say this: there is enough hate and division in the world. Don't deny people the right to happiness and fulfillment because an external force compels you to; look inside yourself, put yourselves in their position and honestly ask yourself why you think the way you do.

reply to post by Dark Ghost


I don't see it as being weak at all.It takes a strong person to admit they're view point has been wrong and come out and tell everyone that.I have never had any problem with accepting marriage for others myself due to my belief that I don't let anyone tell me what to do in my bedroom,therefor I give others that same respect.But I'm well aware that old habits die hard for others.Its refreshing to see a change of heart of others when logic steps in.

Much respect to you, its not easy in this culture to admit one might have been wrong. I think about it and i don't believe its even really about the actual act of marriage that they are fighting for but being treated the same as any other couple would.

What I really find impressive and the reason I starred and flagged this thread is not because you now agree with the way I see things but because you took the time to think things over and to reflect on why you feel the way you do. Searching yourself and not just going along with what we think we are supposed to believe is one of the most admirable and brave things we are capable of doing.

It's so important, I think, to remember that life is very fluid, that our views can change, that we will contradict ourselves as we learn and grow or conversely as we close ourselves up. I think, it's wonderful when we can admit that maybe we weren't thinking clearly or yes even, maybe I was wrong. It's hard to do but when we do it, it's a beautiful thing.

reply to post by Dark Ghost


Hey, THAT is a Big Man post.
Live and Let Live.

We have short lives filled with money and politics and people getting blown up...
Lets at the very least just freaking live.

This extends to other topics that only affect the individual.

Thanks For manning up. It's VERY refreshing. I'm not gay and I noticed long ago that I AM NOT GAY... I have no say in the matter, ya know. It's like telling a girl not to have a period. Who the heck are you to say that?

Can you imagine GAY guys telling you, that being with a girl is gross and immoral? And that you can't marry the girl you LOVE?? I imagine that's what it is like. It's Sad, that people can't get outside their own body and see this. It's so obvious to me.

I don't have all the answers, and NO ONE does. We have to work together, and make each other happy, otherwise we are polluting our planet with negative social interactions.

~Dusty

PS. That Very Same Ancient Book Says: "Love Thy Neighbor As Thy SELF!" and "Do Unto Others As You Would Have Done Unto You."

Thank you for this.

The 10 commandments should be the ONE commandment:

1. Seek love, happiness, industry, and self fulfillment, but not where such denies, takes away from, prevents, or even forces the same with anyone else or causes harm.

If there's any need for a 2nd commandment, it should read:

2. Share with others who need or want it, so long as such sharing is charitable, welcome or asked for and contributes to the promotion of rule #1.

reply to post by Dark Ghost


I don't think it is even possible for homosexuals to marry, because they would not have the blessing of God. That is to say, marriage is a blessed covenant between a man and woman, and nothing else. You must have a man, a woman, and God's blessing - otherwise, it is not a marriage. Also, the covenant must be true or else it will not be blessed. Meaning, God knows if your vows are truly in your heart. Empty vows will not beget marriage.

Like you, I do not understand why God condemns homosexuality, but because it's stated as being wrong in the Bible, I will have to have faith that there is something wrong with it, thus condoning it must also be wrong - sorry.

In short: I view homosexual marriage akin to two children pretending to get married - it's cute and all but it's not really marriage.

Originally posted by Bleeeeep
reply to post by Dark Ghost

 

I don't think it is even possible for homosexuals to marry, because they would not have the blessing of God. That is to say, marriage is a blessed covenant between a man and woman, and nothing else. You must have a man, a woman, and God's blessing - otherwise, it is not a marriage. Also, the covenant must be true or else it will not be blessed. Meaning, God knows if your vows are truly in your heart. Empty vows will not beget marriage.

Like you, I do not understand why God condemns homosexuality, but because it's stated as being wrong in the Bible, I will have to have faith that there is something wrong with it, thus condoning it must also be wrong - sorry.

In short: I view homosexual marriage akin to two children pretending to get married - it's cute and all but it's not really marriage.

The flaw in your reasoning lies where you expect people to believe and follow the same thing you do.

What if the two same sex partners are Hindu, Buddhist, Zoroastrian, something else non- or even anti-Christian, or a different kind of Christian interpretation than the interpretive mythology you subscribe to?

reply to post by Druscilla


Or worse yet what if one partner is Democrat and the other Republican!!! OMG!!!

Seriously I count my blessings for the wonderful man I married and our two lovely daughters. but if I had not met him when I did, I was this >< close to turning Lezzy.

My take, it's a rare thing to find someone to tryly love you uncondishionally. if your luckly enough to meet that person you hang on to them with both arms and feet, reguardless of their gender race or little green people from Mars.

Originally posted by Bleeeeep
reply to post by Dark Ghost

 

I don't think it is even possible for homosexuals to marry, because they would not have the blessing of God. That is to say, marriage is a blessed covenant between a man and woman, and nothing else. You must have a man, a woman, and God's blessing - otherwise, it is not a marriage. Also, the covenant must be true or else it will not be blessed. Meaning, God knows if your vows are truly in your heart. Empty vows will not beget marriage.

Like you, I do not understand why God condemns homosexuality, but because it's stated as being wrong in the Bible, I will have to have faith that there is something wrong with it, thus condoning it must also be wrong - sorry.

In short: I view homosexual marriage akin to two children pretending to get married - it's cute and all but it's not really marriage.

Cute indeed.

I view religious people as little children that believe in Santa and follow the rules in order to get the presents.

It's cute and all, but Santa is not real, and upon closer look the whole concept is ridiculous. He don't fit through the chimney at all, and reindeer don't fly.

I mean your own sense tells you there is nothing wrong with it, but because a book, written 2000 years ago, says so, it must be wrong, and your own reasoning doesn't matter anymore.

As long as you get the presents I guess.

Merry Christmas kids.

reply to post by Druscilla


I'm not sure what you're asking.

Are you asking what if I'm wrong by way of YHWH not being the real God?
Are you asking if I should be okay with sinners sinning because they do not know they're sinning?

To either of those questions I can only reply: In the event of my opinion being wrong and it somehow causes a homosexual grief then I am sorry. If I am wrong then I am wrong, and I would accept that.

You will have to clarify if either of those questions weren't what you were asking.

reply to post by StraightBananas


It just so happens that most teaching of the Bible fall into place in my ideology like only pieces of a puzzle can fit together. That is why I believe. I do not believe in God for a reward beyond the reward of understanding.

Without God this realm, and the many things I have learned of it over the years, does not make sense.

reply to post by Dark Ghost

Congratulations, Dark Ghost, on your wake up call....I wish more people would just get it. I am an avid heterosexual man, married to a woman and liking it, but if two people in love wish to marry, it does not affect me in the least. Some people seem to think a Gay couple threatens them, threatens to tear down what they think of as an institution. Marriage is a binding contract between two people, and if they marry in the conventional way, with a license, then the State is also a party to the contract. My wife and I have a Civil Union type marriage, or a Common Law marriage. We have a binding contract between us, and the State is not a party. The Social Security Administration, and the State Department of Family and Children recognizes us as such, and places us as a married couple.

Folks, anytime you are required to obtain a License, and pay for it, you lose a Right. We all, as American Citizens, have an absolute right to live in common with anyone we choose to, and the State has not Right whatsoever telling us we cannot.

All that being said, here is what I think. I think Gay couples should form Civil Unions, instead of State sponsored marriages, and I think the State should recognize those Unions the same as a marriage, with all right notwithstanding.

reply to post by Dark Ghost


Your avatar couldn't be more apropos - saying you realize you were wrong takes nothing less than the heart of a lion.

Originally posted by Bleeeeep
reply to post by Dark Ghost

 

I don't think it is even possible for homosexuals to marry, because they would not have the blessing of God. That is to say, marriage is a blessed covenant between a man and woman, and nothing else. You must have a man, a woman, and God's blessing - otherwise, it is not a marriage. Also, the covenant must be true or else it will not be blessed. Meaning, God knows if your vows are truly in your heart. Empty vows will not beget marriage.
.

I think one of the things at the core of the argument against this is the simple fact that marriage is a religious idea. An idea that is defined by the religious as union between a man and a woman. To make it a union between the same sex is definitely not marriage such that the Christians are basically saying call it something else but not marriage.

It's that ancient book that lays it out like that, so deviating from its rules i think is the same as choosing not to abide by it completely. The people that came up with the religious books/faith/beliefs etc made marriage that way. What's the use of cherry picking the bible for example?

Somethings are really a matter of take it or leave it rather than stretching boundaries to accommodate everyone and everything. If we do that, where does one draw the line? If at all we want lines anymore.

Is it far fetched to compare it to other cultures, religions migrating to the US and demanding the Americans go out of their way to accommodate their ways?

I've heard it said many times that the first unit of a society is the family. If you agree, then you may also agree that LGBT is changing perhaps destroying the family, and next human society.

Originally posted by Bleeeeep
reply to post by Druscilla

 

I'm not sure what you're asking.

Are you asking what if I'm wrong by way of YHWH not being the real God?
Are you asking if I should be okay with sinners sinning because they do not know they're sinning?

To either of those questions I can only reply: In the event of my opinion being wrong and it somehow causes a homosexual grief then I am sorry. If I am wrong then I am wrong, and I would accept that.

You will have to clarify if either of those questions weren't what you were asking.

God created gays,,, and he loves all of them more then you,,,,, he told me......

...he is also gay himself

reply to post by ImaFungi


He is a faggod?

I say let them marry.

But then again I think there should be absolutely no gov benefit to being married. No tax breaks, no nothing.

There should be an alternative to marriage

The state should not recognise religious marriage and instead only recognise a legal partnership.

Religion is barbaric, childish nonsense. No government should recognise religion.

I don't believe any person can say what type of union is right or wrong.

Most likely those wanting a gay union are more intelligent and contribute more to society than those than would not allow it.

We should all be equal.

reply to post by Dark Ghost


There are a lot of people out there who utilize all kinds of semi-lame, to completely asinine 'reasons' to justify their hatred/negative projection towards others. Many of these reasons do stem from some of the traditional religions, but there are many beneficial aspects, in my opinion, within the several popular religions as well. Finding and focusing on the ones that are actually conducive to peace, progress, and happiness, is not only subjective, but it is a major task in and of itself. It's one thing to recognize, it's an entirely different thing to apply these concepts.

So, if we had the choice to work towards a better set of dominant cultural mind sets, would we?

I would bet so, despite what some may say, or hope, for whatever motivation.