Jesus was a "Muslim"

reply to post by WarminIndy

Now I want to know here, from these Surahs...where is the command that as a Christian, I have to accept Mohammed as the prophet of allah? And apparently, these Surahs not only say that with Allah, I'm good to go as a Christian, even if I take another god with Allah, at least Allah will decide where I go. It says nothing there about any person, no person, none whatsoever, no Muslim, no Jew, no Christian, no body even has to say the shahada. So why do you have to say it?

You have raised an extremely valid point.

1. I dont think anybody asked you to accept Mohammad as a prophet. (I know I didn't)
2. The Koran, if I recall correctly.... teaches that the Jew and the Christian will be judged by his holy books... meaning, if you are christian and YOU messed up with Jesus' commands, you have nobody to blame but yourself....and YOUR failure to follow Jesus' commands.

Now I also ask this, why in some places does the Quran say Allah and some places it says God? If Allah is God, then why no consistency in that?

Why is God called by a number of different names/titles in the bible?

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by WarminIndy

 

Now I want to know here, from these Surahs...where is the command that as a Christian, I have to accept Mohammed as the prophet of allah? And apparently, these Surahs not only say that with Allah, I'm good to go as a Christian, even if I take another god with Allah, at least Allah will decide where I go. It says nothing there about any person, no person, none whatsoever, no Muslim, no Jew, no Christian, no body even has to say the shahada. So why do you have to say it?

You have raised an extremely valid point.

1. I dont think anybody asked you to accept Mohammad as a prophet. (I know I didn't)
2. The Koran, if I recall correctly.... teaches that the Jew and the Christian will be judged by his holy books... meaning, if you are christian and YOU messed up with Jesus' commands, you have nobody to blame but yourself....and YOUR failure to follow Jesus' commands.

Now I also ask this, why in some places does the Quran say Allah and some places it says God? If Allah is God, then why no consistency in that?

Why is God called by a number of different names/titles in the bible?

edit on 6-10-2012 by sk0rpi0n because: (no reason given)

The calling card for every confessing Muslim is that they must take the Shahada. This is an unbroken rule in Islam.

La ilaha illa Allah wa-Muhammad rasul Allah. There is no god but God and Muhammad is the prophet of God.

Sincere recitation of this confession of faith before of two Muslims is the sole requirement for those who wish to join the Muslim community. It represents acceptance not only of Allah and his prophet, but of the entirety of Islam. As one of the Pillars, the shahada must be recited correctly aloud with full understanding and internal assent at least once in every Muslim's lifetime. The shahada is also recited in the muzzein's call to prayer, included in the salat (daily ritual prayer) and incorporated in Sufi contemplative prayer. It is also recited in the moments before death. From the shahada are derived the other fundamental doctrines of Islam: angels, the Qur'an and the Bible, the prophets, and the Day of Judgment.

Significance of the Shahada

For Jesus to be Muslim, he must say the Shahada. And because Mohammed lived 600 years later, it would impossible for Him to do so. Moses lived several thousand years earlier than Mohammed, so therefore Moses could not either be a Muslim. The same goes with every prophet the Quran says are Muslim.

Mohammed did not say he was paraclete, that was something other Muslims have tried to insert. So as a Christian, if I believe in God (Yaweh), the last day and do good deeds, then I am not really kafir. So then why the later verses in the Quran saying that I am a polytheist and should be killed wherever I am found?

The reason that you might think God is called different titles is because in the Hebrew, when the words were used such as Adonai (Lord) and I AM (Yaweh), the understanding was that when using those words, people knew the context. Because Allah is just a contraction word, "il" and "ilah", which simply means "the god", there would be no purpose in interchanging.

I know that people might be confused on Yaweh and Jehova, however, the reason English speakers tend to say Jehova is because when the Bible was translated into English and the word Yaweh (Yod he waw he), the Tetragrammaton, then German translators realized that grammatically correct wording for German was Ja for Ya, because the J is the Y sound in German. So in essence, it is not two different words, just two different spellings, much like in Arabic you might say Yusef for Joseph and Uzair for Ezra or Yehudi for Judah.

The Jews have traditionally not said Yaweh, but have said HaShem is more respectful, in their belief. HaShem means "The Name" which is consistent throughout the Bible. Whenever you see "The Name" or "My Name" in Hebrew it is "HaShem".

Archeological evidence supports the name Yaweh since before the Jewish religion was even founded. That is why no prophet in the Bible could ever just say Allah, because they all spoke by "The Name". And Jesus did the same thing when saying "Before Abraham was, I Am". When He said that, all the Jews knew exactly what He meant.

Allah is just a generic word for any god. HaShem is specific, because The Name is Yaweh.

reply to post by WarminIndy

The calling card for every confessing Muslim is that they must take the Shahada. This is an unbroken rule in Islam.

Its an acknowledgement of faith. No different from the famous saying of Jesus "Hear O Israel, your God is One"...
Thats what he said , right? Or did he say "Hear O Israel, your God is a trinity and I am part of it"?

For Jesus to be Muslim, he must say the Shahada. And because Mohammed lived 600 years later, it would impossible for Him to do so. Moses lived several thousand years earlier than Mohammed, so therefore Moses could not either be a Muslim. The same goes with every prophet the Quran says are Muslim.

So basically, you are trying to tell me that a religious concept cannot apply to a prophet or a religious figure if it was spoken or declared before he was born. Is that what you are trying to tell me? Yes or no?

So as a Christian, if I believe in God (Yaweh), the last day and do good deeds, then I am not really kafir. So then why the later verses in the Quran saying that I am a polytheist and should be killed wherever I am found?

I don't think Christians are kafir.
Do you plan on being part of an army that would wage war against Islam?

I know that people might be confused on Yaweh and Jehova, however, the reason English speakers tend to say Jehova is because when the Bible was translated into English and the word Yaweh (Yod he waw he), the Tetragrammaton, then German translators realized that grammatically correct wording for German was Ja for Ya, because the J is the Y sound in German.

Actually a lot of biblical names were changed during translation.
"J" doesn't exist in Hebrew.

The Arabic versions of names are closer to the original Hebrew versions.

Its Yakov / Yakub in Hebrew and Arabic.... and NOT Jacob as taught by Europeanized Christianity.
Its Yoseph / Yusuf in Hebrew and Arabic...and NOT Joseph as taught by Europeanized Christianity.
Its Ayuv / Ayub in Hebrew and Arabic....and NOT Job as taught by Europeanized Christianity
Its Yohann / Yahya in Hebrew and Arabic....and NOT John as taught by Europeanized Christianity.

You have basically been handed down a Europeanized / Constantinized version of a semitic religion. The muslims are closer to biblical concepts than you will ever be. No wonder the jews would rather worship in a mosque than step into a church.... no wonder jews would rather buy Halaal food than eat pork with Christians.

Because Allah is just a contraction word, "il" and "ilah", which simply means "the god", there would be no purpose in interchanging.

Archeological evidence supports the name Yaweh since before the Jewish religion was even founded. That is why no prophet in the Bible could ever just say Allah, because they all spoke by "The Name". And Jesus did the same thing when saying "Before Abraham was, I Am". When He said that, all the Jews knew exactly what He meant.

"Allah" sounds a lot like the Aramaic word for "God".
English to Aramaic translator

Also, was Jesus calling out to "the god" when he was nailed to the cross?

The Jews have traditionally not said Yaweh, but have said HaShem is more respectful, in their belief. HaShem means "The Name" which is consistent throughout the Bible. Whenever you see "The Name" or "My Name" in Hebrew it is "HaShem".

And yet, we have Jews acknowledge that Allah is God.

Watch these videos if you have the time.

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reply to post by sk0rpi0n


God is One, Jesus was correct. Trinitarians believe in one God, it's a monotheistic position.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


If it is monotheistic, why does "the Father" sit in one place with Jesus at his right hand according to scripture?

That would imply at least two Gods... with whoever on the left side.... thats three...

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

If it is monotheistic, why does "the Father" sit in one place with Jesus at his right hand according to scripture?

That would imply at least two Gods... with whoever on the left side.... thats three...

I know I sound like a broken record, but we call God "Him", not "Them".

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by sk0rpi0n

 

God is One, Jesus was correct. Trinitarians believe in one God, it's a monotheistic position.

As much as they try, allah will always mean "the god". If Allah is the same god, then why do they have trouble with saying Yaweh?

Allah is not a proper name, even they know that. And then the above poster thinks Jews eat halal because it is not pork...lol.

What they do not understand is that it has to do with just more than pork, to be kosher is much more than that. And I have seen Jews in church, so the above poster really does not know anything about Jews.

I want to hear one Muslim say "the name of God is Yaweh". I want them to say "HaShem". Yaweh is not English at all. And Yaweh is not just allah, because again, allah simply means, "the god".

reply to post by NOTurTypical


What makes "God" a male, anyway? No one's answered that one for me either.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

If it is monotheistic, why does "the Father" sit in one place with Jesus at his right hand according to scripture?

That would imply at least two Gods... with whoever on the left side.... thats three...

I know I sound like a broken record, but we call God "Him", not "Them".

That is in fact the problem...

There is three distinct entities in your trinity...

I know i sound like a "broken record" as well... but three does not equal one...

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

What makes "God" a male, anyway? No one's answered that one for me either.

He's a Father. Generally fathers are male. Jesus incarnated as a male with no human male DNA.

Originally posted by Akragon

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

If it is monotheistic, why does "the Father" sit in one place with Jesus at his right hand according to scripture?

That would imply at least two Gods... with whoever on the left side.... thats three...

I know I sound like a broken record, but we call God "Him", not "Them".

That is in fact the problem...

There is three distinct entities in your trinity...

I know i sound like a "broken record" as well... but three does not equal one...

No Trinitarian believes in three "entities", but One God who exists in infinity as 3 persons. 3 different entities would be polytheism. I've never really got hung up on understanding the Triune nature of God because of my background in math. Where it's easy to have three completely different infinite numbers with the same sum total of infinity.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Where it's easy to have three completely different infinite numbers with the same sum total of infinity.

Um, there's two different infinites? You can add infinity to infinity? What's that make, infinity squared? I didn't know that. Please cite your source, otherwise you're just making stuff up as you go along. Wouldn't be the first time.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

No Trinitarian believes in three "entities", but One God who exists in infinity as 3 persons. 3 different entities would be polytheism.

Again... that is the problem with "the trinity"... there is clearly three... Not one

I've never really got hung up on understanding the Triune nature of God because of my background in math. Where it's easy to have three completely different infinite numbers with the same sum total of infinity.

So you can blindly accept this nature, even though Jesus said nothing about a trinity, or a "Godhead"...

Let me ask... Imagine you're standing before God on his "throne"... Do you picture three seats?

Like this?

.....God

Son...... Spirit

OR

Some three faced dude... perhaps with six arms?

Kinda brings to mind the hindu God Vishnu

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by WarminIndy

 

So basically, you are trying to tell me that a religious concept cannot apply to a prophet or a religious figure if it was spoken or declared before he was born. Is that what you are trying to tell me? Yes or no?

I am telling you that prophecy and religious concepts are not the same thing. What you are proposing is that for Jesus to be a muslim and say the shahada, then the shahada must have existed prior and since the shahada never existed because the simple fact Mohammed is part of the shahada, makes it impossible to be prophecy or religious concept before he was born.

I don't think Christians are kafir.
Do you plan on being part of an army that would wage war against Islam?

No, but why am I in Dar-Al Harb while you are in Dar-Al Salam?

"Allah" sounds a lot like the Aramaic word for "God".
English to Aramaic translator

Also, was Jesus calling out to "the god" when he was nailed to the cross?

No, He said "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabacthani" and people thought He was calling out to Elijah.



אלי אלי למה עזבתני [ēlî ēlî lamâ azavtanî]; or
אלי אלי למא שבקתני [ēlî ēlî lamâ šabaqtanî]; or
אלהי אלהי למא שבקתני [ēlâhî ēlâhî lamâ šabaqtanî]

And yet, we have Jews acknowledge that Allah is God.

What you have is Jews who say the word allah sounds like the generic word for god. Jews when reading the Torah will never, never, never say allah. They will always, always, ALWAYS say HaShem.
HaShem

The Torah never says allah.

reply to post by Akragon


I picture Christ seated on the throne. And Jesus spoke both of the Holy Spirit and the Father in the third person, and said He and the Father are One. He also referenced the Shema as the greatest command in the Torah and in that verse the Hebrew word for "one" is not Yichad which is the word for one as a number, the Hebrew word used is Echad which is one in unity. The same Hebrew word is used when it says Adam and Eve became "one flesh" (Echad). Lastly, "Elohiym" is a PLURAL noun, not a singular. But it's always used in a singular context grammatically. Technically every time it appears in that construct it's a grammatical error. The equivalent in English would be like me saying: "Today I went to the Ford dealership and bought myself one shiny red trucks."

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Where it's easy to have three completely different infinite numbers with the same sum total of infinity.

Um, there's two different infinites? You can add infinity to infinity? What's that make, infinity squared? I didn't know that. Please cite your source, otherwise you're just making stuff up as you go along. Wouldn't be the first time.

edit on 6-10-2012 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)

No, i said three different infinite numbers, not three different infinities. Try re-reading before criticizing.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


In order to be "united" there needs to be at least two objects to unite...

Both of said objects are identified as God according to your trinity...

Thus there is more then ONE God... three Gods "united" as one...

And one of them didn't ever identify himself as God... only Gods son.

I picture Christ seated on the throne.

It says hes at the right hand of God, NOT on Gods throne...

Originally posted by logical7

you have an idealistic concept about a holy book,

Perhaps, but I expect God to be at least consistent. So far I've not been disappointed.

i think you'l agree that even when reading them you have to maintain a standard and not take anything that voilates the Godness of God, example, making a raped woman marry the rapist, thats not Godly.

Whatever you read must not violate any other part of the book in order for it to be valid. If it appears to, then either it is being read wrong, or the book is inconsistent, and therefore invalidates itself. Generally, what I've found is that inconsistencies tend to be the doing of the reader. many do not dig deep enough to reconcile apparently contradictory passages, and take what they find on the surface.

As an example, God's "goodness" cannot violate His justice, nor can his justice violate his goodness. If it appears to be the case that this has happened, then the error is probably in the reading. It's possible that in the passage you cite, you may have missed something. the same occurs when Christians read the Qur'an - they take what they find on the face, and don't even attempt to reconcile what they have read with the rest of the book.

And i dont know if you have read all the three or read one and claim that others must be same if they from same God. So i'l just give you a link of a site i like for Quran at least www.tafheem.net...

Actually, I have. Several "versions" of all. The main Qur'an I used was the Shakir translation, with the Arabic on the facing page so it could be verified. My copy was printed in Pakistan, and I got it around 1987. I had a Pickthal translation as well, but wasn't overly impressed with it. Nowadays, any and all of the translations can be found on the internet, and lately I've been using an 8 translation interlinear version. For the Taurat and the Injeel, I use BP Bible Pro with 29 translations installed. Much easier to look it up on the computer than drag 5 or 6 versions off of a shelf and flip pages.

Ain't technology a grand thing?

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

What makes "God" a male, anyway? No one's answered that one for me either.

Literary convention, nothing more. God is spirit, genderless. By the same conventions, people call boats and cars "she", but that is not to be construed as a machine actually being female.

reply to post by nenothtu


i am impressed by your broad minded approach.
So did u find the 3 books similar?