Death of democracy in Europe

Two coups in the heart of Europe took place recently, and I have hardly heard an objection raised anywhere in the press or mainstream media. Italy and Greece are now firmly under the leadership of unelected and unknown economists. The elected leaders and governments of these countries have sold out their people and left office without any resistance at all. These new 'governments' that have been set up have been tasked to impose crippling austerity measures on the population and reduce the standards of living and wages to a level no elected politician was willing to implement, which is why they had to go. So now we have two of europe's oldest democracies locked down under a kind of financial dictatorship, totally unelected and put in place by the worlds financial elites as a last ditch effort to save the system, all done without a care for what the populations of these countries may think or want.

To put what has happened into context for U.S members here, it would be like this scenario taking place in the states.

But imagine if the U.S. couldn’t sell its Treasury notes (which has never been a problem, let’s be clear), and the IMF and Germany and China got together and said that Barack Obama, Joe Biden, the Cabinet and the Congress had to go. Imagine that they then designated as Obama’s successor, say, the guy who followed Tim Geithner as head of the New York Fed (I don’t even know who that is), or Robert Zoellick, the American who heads the World Bank. That’s essentially what just happened to Italy and Greece.

Link here explaining what has happened and who is behind it:blog.prospect.org...

Im no economist 'I actually find economics and financial systems hard to understand' but even I can see what has taken place in Greece and Italy is deeply troubling and wrong. I fear these financial elites are blundering from one problem to the next and creating a situation in europe that may lead to real revolution and chaos. What do you think about what is going on here, are they sowing the seeds of rebellion and the break up of the EU? or are these extreme measures a necessary evil needed to save the system from total collapse?

Add the European council as well, they installed "van Rumpey" as the European leader, nobody elected him, nobody knows him..

Once we (The Netherlands) had a referendum about Europe, the majority voted: NO

They just ignored it and went along, never to hold a referendum again.

Democrazy has long been gone in the Netherlands as well.

reply to post by EartOccupant


correct. Add Manuel Baroso, the Sepp Blatter of the European Council.

I just say Nigel Farage for president (even though he´s english )

Watch

those in charge only allow the illusion of democracy, good god, letting the people decide would be preposterous. The future has already been mapped out and there is nothing you or I can do about it, and that future is north korea like,. I can't help but feel that north korea is just an exercise in the future of control of all of humanity,and democracy is just a smokescreen.

I find it all a little strange. It seems that 2 democratic countries have had a banking coup and no one has battered an eye lid. What happened to all the protesting in Italy and Greece, surely if your countries leaders as bad as they may have been, are replaced by undemocratically elected technocrats then that is enough to send anyone on to the streets. My own theory is that citizens of these countries have been paralysed by the shock doctrine.

Convince the population that the nation will crumble unless some unelected banking servant comes to save your nations finances.

Good OP though, would be interesting to hear what the Greeks and Italians think about it.

What sets my alarm bells ringing is the brazen way it has been done in Greece and Italy.

Yes we have been given the illusion of democracy for decades but they, TPTB dont even bother with slight of hand any more.

Whilst our politicians applaud the violence in the Arab dawn spouting nonsense about democracy the same politicians stifle and offer violence to peaceful protesters in their own countries.

No world Gov? The crackdown on the OWS protests throughout the world at the same time shows different.

The de stabilisation in the middle east complete our great and good are now sabre rattling towards Iran who have always been their prime target.

So many smaller pictures are completing the puzzle in front of our eyes to show this was an engineered financial collapse to complete a 'land grab' by the elite bankers and to enslave the world population in debt with one move.

The whole idea of voting for your 'leader' or government is such a sham. Not a rouse, nor a slight little parlour trick . . . it's a full out blatent sham that would put the world's best confidence artist to shame.

Really . . . think about it.

An election is called or set . . . you sit down and read or watch or listen to the 'candidates' who lie like a 100-pound shag carpet about what they're going to do, how they're going to help their constituents, how they're going to change the system and how they're going to make things better than they ever were before.

Democrat, Republican, Liberal, Conservative, moderate, leftist, centerist or whatever word you want to preface the term 'wing' with . . . they're all the same and serve the same master.

That master ain't you . . . unless you're the one behind the scenes funding the election campaigns, slipping the 'insider' information to feather their nests, pulling the strings behind the scenes to promote legislation that benefits your own interests.

It's like taking a shovel of manure from the left side, middle or right side of the steaming heap. Wherever you dip the business end of that spade, it's always loaded with the same thing . . .

Democracy is another way of saying, Sure youu get to pick but it is from their list using their rules to set up their government to serve their best interests.

The constitution shouldn't start with We the People . . . it should be We, the willing dumbass dupes . . . ..

It's like chosing whether you'd like to have your insides eaten out by snakes or spiders . . . either way the end result is the same. After your last breath, there'll be somebody standing over your corpse saying . . . Well, it was their choice following which they'll gather up their little clan of parasites and move on to the next unwitting donor.

The whole idea that we have a free will process to pick somebody or something to tell us how to live our lives, and to enshrine that process in a constitution or bill of rights or whatever it is you want to call it is a really efficient way to make you feel as though you're the master of your own destiny while in reality its just a way to assure we collectively continue cowtowing to the whims of those who are best positioned to benefit from our blind willingness to stupidly follow the generations before who accepted this shining example of faux self-determination.

In short, democracy is nothing more than allowing you to choose from a pre-determined list of clones the one you most want to jab you in the rear end with a barbed picky-rod.

In Europe . . . and sooner or later as this malaise spreads around the globe . . . they're just skipping the part where you feel all warm and fuzzy about picking who gets to screw you over next.

i have to partypoop a bit: these arent some of the oldest democracies in europe. italy is democratic since the 2nd world war, before it was a monarchy. greece is a democracy since 1973 when a military junta was chased away by a student revolt.
the democratic elected leader took too many credits over the decades to get reelected. now the bill has to be paid. to give economic professionals the power is ok with the laws in those countries and intelligent, imo. these power changes did not change the laws in thes countries, they are still constitutional democracies.

Personally I think in greece and italy the time for talking is over. The people need to take thier country back and put those responsible for this tyranny in jail.

Well I am Italian, and while I agree with most of the statements of the OP, I have to say that what just happened in Italy is totally conform to the Constitution. In case there's no longer majority in the Parliament, the Prime Minister has to aknowledge that and consequently resign his mandate in the hands of the President of the Republic. Mr. Berlusconi did exactly what he was supposed to do, after a vote in the Parliament about a state financial summary was approved with only 308 votes (you have majority with at least 316 votes, there are 630 MP in the low Chamber). The oppositions decided not to vote. After the aknowledgement that a majority supporting the current government no longer exists and consequent resignment of the premier, the President of the Republic must start "consultations" to check if another majority supporting a new government can exist in the running Parliament. If these consults bring to the conclusion that it is possible, the PoR must give a name of a candidate Prime Minister. The PoR agrees the name of the possible premier with the parties in the Parliament.
So this is exactly what happened with Mario Monti. Today afternoon (GMT+1) Mr. Monti will face his first trust vote at the Senate, if he gets through there will be a second trust vote at the low Chamber.
In my very personal opinion, Monti's government will not survive Christmas. He is currently supported by the two biggest Italian parties (Mr. Berlusconi's Freedom Party and the Democrats) who have been hardly fighting for so many years, always on opposite positions about spending budgets and social welfare. To save Italy's ass, Monti is supposed to approve a property tax (it will be a novelty for Italy), reform the retirement system (pensions, how do you say that in English?), approve a new electoral law (the current law does not allow voters to write names on the ballots but only to put a cross on the pre-filled names of candidates, decided by political parties without any democratic process) and implement the agenda written by the EU bankers/ECB. He won't do it, IMHO.

I saw that other posters are wondering why there's no protest in Italy about Monti: well, there is protest and very harsh, too: Live from Rome NOW

Developments of this situation are totally unpredictable. I made a short summary of the current political situation but I can tell you that it's not so simple, there are not only two parties in Italy with a lot of different positions.

Peace,

Hundroid

reply to post by Hundroid


Thanks for the information. Our press is showing no opposition at all. Now there is a shock

Originally posted by icepack
i have to partypoop a bit: these arent some of the oldest democracies in europe. italy is democratic since the 2nd world war, before it was a monarchy. greece is a democracy since 1973 when a military junta was chased away by a student revolt.
the democratic elected leader took too many credits over the decades to get reelected. now the bill has to be paid. to give economic professionals the power is ok with the laws in those countries and intelligent, imo. these power changes did not change the laws in thes countries, they are still constitutional democracies.

I agree with your correction (and folks forget elections have not been suspended and unelected advisers are used by all governments) but I think putting the very group of people who got us into this mess in charge of ALL the finances is sheer lunacy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I don't hold to the idea of a secret elite ruling the world, never have. I do hold to the belief that some people are inherently greedy and megalomanics and these people give the impression of an elite. They are not. They are a problem and we need to get rid of their influence on politics. For some weird reason politicians do not see greedy people for what they are except, ironically, those with the same trait! Not all politicians are like this (well not in the UK) most are decent people (irrespective of party) trying to do a job the vast majority would hate to do, have no interest and only ever bitch and complain about.

We will only ever get out these messes when the wellbeing of all citizens are linked.

Every major country ignores their people and drives forward with the EU, France and Germany seem to be the only ones with the appetite for it. The UK is 90% against the EU and again we are ignored by our governments. I dont vote for that reason, no point, unless its a Referendum the EU I am not interested.

Oh, the US is already a step ahead of the EU. We have our Super Congress or council of 13 that will make all important decisions and bypass the Congress - www.abovetopsecret.com...
The main difference I can see between us is that we're still allowed to own firearms while all of Europe has been disarmed long ago.
The whole thing stinks of a long engineered plan to put us all under control of the central banks like so much of the 3rd world is already.
Greece was plundered by Goldman Sachs who played a clever shell game by shuffling money and making loans to make it appear that the former government was staying fiscally sound. It was an illusion and now that they are deeply in debt they are trying to put the blame of the supposed "greed" of the workers and pensioners.
This won't end nicely or easily and will require struggle and sacrifice to end the rule by the banking elites.
Good luck Europe! We can't do anything to help until we get our own house back under control.

There was no democracy in Europe in the first place.

Just the illusion that the people had democracy.

italy is democratic since the 2nd world war, before it was a monarchy

reply to post by icepack


Italy was a monarchy from 1861 until end WW2 (with 22 years of Mussolini dictatorship endorsed by the King) and from 1946 it became a Republic after the majority of Italians voted for Republic within a referendum held on 2/6/1946

Wiki

What is important is that before 1861, Italy has been for centuries (after the disruption of the Roman Empire) divided in small kingdoms, often under the control of foreign powers (Austria, France, Spain). Italy is a nation only since 1861 (we just celebrated the 150 years of Unification) and there's still so much to do. Mr. Camillo Cavour (advisor of King Vittorio Emanuele II in the second half of the 19th century), after Rome was "conquerred" in 1860 said "ok, Italy has been made. Now we have to make the Italians".

We are still busy.....

Some important facts about Mario Monti:

Mario Monti was born in Varese on 19 March 1943.[4] His father hailed from Varese (though he spent much of his life in Argentina after emigrating during World War II), and his mother was born in Piacenza.[5][6] Mario Monti holds a degree in economics and management from Bocconi University, Milan. He completed graduate studies at Yale University,[7] where he studied under James Tobin, the Nobel prize-winning economist.[8] He taught economics at the University of Turin from 1970 to 1985 before moving to Bocconi University, where he was its Rector from 1989 to 1994, and has been its President since 1994. He was also the President of SUERF (The European Money and Finance Forum) from 1982 to 1985.[9] His research has helped to create the 'Klein-Monti model', aimed at describing the behaviour of banks operating under monopoly circumstances. Monti is a member of the Presiderium of the Friends of Europe, a leading European think tank, was the first chairman of Bruegel, an European think tank founded in 2005. He is the European Chairman of the Trilateral Commission, a think tank founded in 1973 by David Rockefeller.[10] He is also a leading member of the infamous economic lodge called Bilderberg Group.[11] Monti is an international adviser to Goldman Sachs and The Coca-Cola Company.[12]

Wiki

Is this enough evidence that Italy is now controlled by the TPTB? I hope he doesn't get the trust, so we can elect someone else in a more democratic way.

Peace,

Hundroid

reply to post by Hundroid



Cheers for the link.
Looks like it's about to get nasty?

reply to post by Hundroid


We Italians (and partly the Greeks) are the bright example of what is the end of a civilization... after more than 15 centuries from being the masters of the known world look at what we have become!

There are more Italians (or at least of Italian origin) living abroad than in Italy nowadays.

As our ancestor Dante Alighieri wrote in the thirteen century in his "Divina Commedia":

Ahi serva Italia, di dolore ostello,
nave sanza nocchiere in gran tempesta,
non donna di province, ma bordello!

Which in English should roughly sounds like:

Ahi servant Italy, harbor of pain,
Ship without helmsman in a great storm,
Not woman from the provinces, but brothel!


What else to say?

Lately from a Prime Minister that was acting more like a pimp than a man and now with this marvelous technocrat government appointed directly from Goldman Sachs & Co. we have reached, most probably, the gran finale.

I'm afraid that even if this government is not going too far (and I agree with Hundroid on this) I don't think it will get any better soon... if ever.

Stay human.

Originally posted by woodwardjnr
I find it all a little strange. It seems that 2 democratic countries have had a banking coup and no one has battered an eye lid. What happened to all the protesting in Italy and Greece, surely if your countries leaders as bad as they may have been, are replaced by undemocratically elected technocrats then that is enough to send anyone on to the streets. My own theory is that citizens of these countries have been paralysed by the shock doctrine.

Convince the population that the nation will crumble unless some unelected banking servant comes to save your nations finances.

Good OP though, would be interesting to hear what the Greeks and Italians think about it.

edit on 17-11-2011 by woodwardjnr because: (no reason given)

What happened to all the protesting? Did you really read ATS or has any common sense about power in the world today? they can manage to minimize any real protest just with no or little or coverage in the media and efficient blockage of internet, damn, why can't I post this in my wall?...