Pope accused of crimes against humanity by victims of sex abuse

Ugh, this whole topic makes me sick

I am glad the survivors of this type of abuse are finding the strength to come forward and speak up. It most certainly is a crime and shouldn’t go unnoticed or unpunished. However, I am also saddened by the way people generalize….. I mean, just because my plumber is a drunk don’t mean ALL plumbers are drunks.

Anyway… as far as the Vatican having money enough to put a squash on most of the negative publicity as they’ve done in the past, I don’t understand where “money” has anything to do with the crime or the victim/survivor of the crime. Money doesn’t mean sh*t. It doesn’t undo what’s been done and it certainly doesn’t help to “fix” the survivors future. I think most survivors of clergy abuse just want to be acknowledged. I don’t know. One thing I do know… if my child was molested by a priest or a rabbi or Michael Jackson or a next door neighbor? There is no way I’d accept a settlement… money in exchange for innocence… it’s just wrong all day long!

IM (not so humble) O if you know the crime is happening and you do nothing, or you help to hide it, you are just as guilty as the perpetrator.

reply to post by Maxmars


I do see what this has to do with hatred? or hating.

This is simply about justice.

You also mention monetary settlements.

I have listened to so many stories of abuse in the church. The majority of the victims are not bothered about compensation. This all grew from wanting to be heard. For their stories to be told. The church did their best to prevent that. They made victims and their parents sign paperwork to keep the crimes secret when they complained. The Vatican gave the instructions how to proceed in these matters when they arose. That is why the Vatican must now come forward and answer for themselves.

Justice! It has nothing to do with hating.

Originally posted by lbndhr
Personally I do not understand what would get anyone to worship the likes of this type of cult. I find it mind-boggling reading these type articles knowing the sheep keep comming for more. It is out there the world knows catholics love the little children..yet the sheep keep going back and bowing as they hand their innocent children to the animals. The blame needs to be broadened to include the ignorant parents that place the littleones directly into the lions den.

Come on really? You're really gonna generalize like that? That's sad.... and ignorant (sorry).

I don't do organized religion. I know what I know and I know what I believe and I don't have to find it in a book or through an organization. But I don't blame ALL for a few....

But I totally agree with you on your last statement. Parents need to take some responsibility here as well.

reply to post by JohnySeagull

The majority of the victims are not bothered about compensation. This all grew from wanting to be heard. For their stories to be told.

Exactly!

Originally posted by lbndhr
reply to post by gabby2011

 

In the beggining of catholic formation I would agree the innocent followers did not know. However many years,decades centuries later, yes the sheep know what is happening, it has been all over the medias for at least 30 or more years. so yes the adult followers are equally to blame for the mishaps of their children.

I can agree to to that point to an extent..

I know of other religious institutes who have the same problem..

But so do political circles..educational circles.. very very common in sports..with coaches...

Do you suggest parents watch over their children 24/7..and not let them take part in school or any activities in sports.?

Yes.. of course if something happened..it would be the parents fault for "allowing" it to happen

Quite honestly its a sic world out there..in and out of religion...maybe the most responsible thing to do is to not bring another child into it.

reply to post by Blanca Rose
100% agree, I call HOGWASH too

reply to post by JohnySeagull


"So certain are you?" he said in a vaguely Yoda-esque voice...

There is justice, there is reckoning, there is revenge, there is hate... can you be so sure that everyone speaks for the more noble choice?

The characterizations of an entire church into a force for evil seems a bit far from rational.

There are people in this world who have abused the trust granted them by their association with the church. But can you not insert many other large institutions in that place of 'abuser', or 'predator', or simply criminal? Yes you can. Yet somehow, this reality gets distilled into rebuking the faith of millions.

Do we give up on the American way because some Americans are criminals? Do those of the Muslim world stand condemned because some have chosen a path of wanton destruction and violence? Do we stop sending our children to school because some teachers have similarly abused children there? Of course not. We know that these crimes are not deficiencies that extend beyond the person who commits the crime.

I agree very much that pedophiles or sexual offender in the clergy require exactly the same social consequences as if they were not in the clergy. The Catholic church does not. (For that matter neither do our political institutions, our financial institutions, our military institutions, nor a plethora of other "highly regarded" social constructs.)

You say this is about being heard. Has the media ever shied away from reporting these accusations? If not, who is it that has not heard them? The church? Oh they heard. And to their shame they valued the career and image of priesthood over the damage done to the flock. For this they must answer.

The real tragedy of not being heard came from the victims own communities. This is hardly ever addressed.

You say this is not about monetary compensation. Yet I assure you that I will be surprised if you can find more than two or three attorneys who are not profiting handsomely from these cases.... in fact, should you find one litigant that insists on no monetary settlement, you will also discover they had great difficulty in being "heard" by an attorney.

Many want to use this ugliness as a further opportunity to decry their abject hatred for the church itself. Frankly I understand their choice of hate targets, the 'catholic' nature of the church and it's incapacity to restrict its activities to matters of faith is the window of opportunity for the offenses that have been wrought in her name.

This does not invalidate faith. It invalidates the construct of the institution.

Should it be possible to uncover a doctrine which systematically expunges crimes from clergy-members, while tolerating those crimes; it would still not be egregious enough to consider it a crime against humanity. We, as humanity, must accept that our naive faith that "men of God" are in fact "of God" more so than "men" leads us to fall victim to misplaced trust. And the fact that a church is involved is only circumstantial. It is not a matter of the church only. It's just more of an offense to our trusting egos.

I would have assumed that the church would punish these people more harshly and more expeditiously than our own lumbering justice system; except those in the clerical hierarchy suffer from the apex ailment of cloistered detachment. So the time may have come to recognize that the church is incapable of adequately policing her own people.

That tradition was useful when missionaries to other countries would otherwise all end up dead in host nations where theocracies had no regard for 'alien' clerical status, or were ideologically compelled to consider the fostering of their faith a "crime.". But those days are long gone. People are no longer in a vacuum of communication, generally speaking.

Where I see one, or two, or ten, people who see the diminishment of humanity in the failure to proactively (and with righteous aggressiveness) seek out these offenders and treat them within a process of due justice; I see an order of magnitude more using the failing as an opportunity to disparage and diminish an entire community of faithful people...

Not recognizing this as but one aspect of institutional abuse of which many institutions are guilty, seems basely hypocritical. And should this resolve itself in the greatest possible pain and suffering of the church leadership; it will still not put an end to the problem; which is that people in positions of power 'get away with things' and often engender a culture of 'we should "get away with it."

Are there those who deserve to be heard on a global scale? If they are denied a voice anywhere else, yes. But if this is just more of a 'squeeze more out of the church' move by the lawyers... I think not. And if it is about simply allowing the hateful anti-faith crowd a venue to marginalize those who they reject, less so.

Originally posted by Taupin Desciple


Poor publicity that that the catholic church brought on themselves by being one of the largest conspiritors of continuing pedophelia that the world has ever known. You can add brainwashing to the laundry list of charges as well.

True. Having grown up in a town where a local parish priest was convicted and defrocked over molesting children, some of whom were my friends, I have some idea how this works. It took years and years for all of this to happen, so, while change would be a good thing, don't hold your breath waiting for it to happen.

Like it or not, the tide is turning against the catholic church. And it's not turning their way either. It's being turned by the common man, not the authorities, as evedenced in the article. That's a good thing because the common man is the entity that can affect positive change. If you don't want to stand up against a very negative and destructive authority, that's your peorgative, but don't sit there and try to tell people that doing something is having no effect while doing nothing is. That makes no sense.

I'm not even Catholic. So, you think just the common man will affect all this change, with no nevermind for the MILLIONS of devout Catholics are still sitting in pews? And what exactly is it that you have done, personally, to fight this evil entity, called the Catholic Church? It won't be until this entities own devotees have had enough, that any of this will change.

I can understand that some people need religion. There are many people who need the comfort of knowing that something bigger than them is in charge. That there is some sort of meaning, purpose and structure in their lives. But that comfort shouldn't come at the expense of their children getting molested by the same people giving that comfort. That's not only wrong, it's sick.

Ok, tell you what, I live in Arizona, too. So, how about this sunday, you take hundreds of copies of this article, and put them under the windsheild wipers of all the mass attendees. Think it will matter?

Move a long people, nothing to see here...

God told him to do it ...

reply to post by User8911

That doesn't mean we should discard the fact that the devil is real, never forget that!

The devil is not real. The devil was made up by mankind out of mankind's ignorance about God. God is everything. God is love. The devil is a lie born of human fear about something our minds do not have the ability to comprehend.

reply to post by NightGypsy

The devil is not real. The devil was made up by mankind out of mankind's ignorance about God. God is everything. God is love. The devil is a lie born of human fear about something our minds do not have the ability to comprehend.

hmmm..so I guess that loving God you speak of is responsible for all the sex slaves..vile snuff films...not to mention rapists ,and murderers... and all the other evil crap that happens in this world ?



I think your mind does not have the capability of understanding logic..if you can make statements like this...

reply to post by gabby2011


Well yeah, he allowed evil to be born, if he did indeed create everything.

anyway, I find the"balance" theory to be complete rubbish, he created EVERYTHING (apparently) so he has no need for a balance.

Originally posted by NightGypsy
reply to post by User8911

 

That doesn't mean we should discard the fact that the devil is real, never forget that!

The devil is not real. The devil was made up by mankind out of mankind's ignorance about God. God is everything. God is love. The devil is a lie born of human fear about something our minds do not have the ability to comprehend.

I agree. The Devil was made up by those who wanted to have control by instilling fear.

Originally posted by gabby2011
reply to post by NightGypsy

 

The devil is not real. The devil was made up by mankind out of mankind's ignorance about God. God is everything. God is love. The devil is a lie born of human fear about something our minds do not have the ability to comprehend.

hmmm..so I guess that loving God you speak of is responsible for all the sex slaves..vile snuff films...not to mention rapists ,and murderers... and all the other evil crap that happens in this world ?

I think your mind does not have the capability of understanding logic..if you can make statements like this...

God doesn't cause people to be evil, God doesn't make sh*t happen, God doesn't interfere at all... we all make our own choices, good or bad, based on what we're presented with. People in this world who are evil made the choice to be evil. Unless we're talking about some kind of mental illness or something, I mean there are exceptions.

Maybe some people believe in a God who is responsible for the sick things you've mentioned up there. Mine sure isn't!

I'm most likely going to catch heat for this, but here it goes. First, yes, I feel badly for the victims of sex abuse and I hope they get justice and can finally find some peace, to the abusers, I can't post what I'd like to see done to the abusers cause I'd probably get banned . Okey now for where I'll probably get in trouble. I'm seeing something else happening here. I'm seeing an all out attack on Christianity and people should be asking, why all of a sudden do we have people rushing out with this sex abuse? Are you seriously going to say this doesn't happen with islam? the Jewish religion? Hindu(sp?), ect, ect why is it just the church in the lime light? This whole thing feels like somebodys pulling the puppet strings here, to bring the church down. Doesn't it seem odd with islam on the rise world wide that now the church is under attack with these charges?
I'm not saying these things didn't happen and I'll say again, that if I got my hands on the ones that did these evil things to innocent children, it would not be pretty for the abuser.
I'm just saying that you should ask yourself, why is it just Christianity facing these charges, kind of odd don't you think?

Originally posted by Chance321
I'm most likely going to catch heat for this, but here it goes. First, yes, I feel badly for the victims of sex abuse and I hope they get justice and can finally find some peace, to the abusers, I can't post what I'd like to see done to the abusers cause I'd probably get banned

. Okey now for where I'll probably get in trouble. I'm seeing something else happening here. I'm seeing an all out attack on Christianity and people should be asking, why all of a sudden do we have people rushing out with this sex abuse? Are you seriously going to say this doesn't happen with islam? the Jewish religion? Hindu(sp?), ect, ect why is it just the church in the lime light? This whole thing feels like somebodys pulling the puppet strings here, to bring the church down. Doesn't it seem odd with islam on the rise world wide that now the church is under attack with these charges?
I'm not saying these things didn't happen and I'll say again, that if I got my hands on the ones that did these evil things to innocent children, it would not be pretty for the abuser.
I'm just saying that you should ask yourself, why is it just Christianity facing these charges, kind of odd don't you think?

Ha ha, I'm glad you said it. I wanted too but now I don't have too
Not only the all out attack on Christianity as you've mentioned, but a general attitude that since some of them did it, they must all be pedophiles. No one said that specifically but it's the direction we're headed in...

Originally posted by Skorpiogurl

Originally posted by Chance321
I'm most likely going to catch heat for this, but here it goes. First, yes, I feel badly for the victims of sex abuse and I hope they get justice and can finally find some peace, to the abusers, I can't post what I'd like to see done to the abusers cause I'd probably get banned

. Okey now for where I'll probably get in trouble. I'm seeing something else happening here. I'm seeing an all out attack on Christianity and people should be asking, why all of a sudden do we have people rushing out with this sex abuse? Are you seriously going to say this doesn't happen with islam? the Jewish religion? Hindu(sp?), ect, ect why is it just the church in the lime light? This whole thing feels like somebodys pulling the puppet strings here, to bring the church down. Doesn't it seem odd with islam on the rise world wide that now the church is under attack with these charges?
I'm not saying these things didn't happen and I'll say again, that if I got my hands on the ones that did these evil things to innocent children, it would not be pretty for the abuser.
I'm just saying that you should ask yourself, why is it just Christianity facing these charges, kind of odd don't you think?

Ha ha, I'm glad you said it. I wanted too but now I don't have too

Not only the all out attack on Christianity as you've mentioned, but a general attitude that since some of them did it, they must all be pedophiles. No one said that specifically but it's the direction we're headed in...

I don't know, it's been setting my radar off for sometime now. Like I said, I'm not bashing the victims, far from it, but I see/feel that something else is going on. And your right, it does seem to be heading that way quickly. Well, we'll see how long before I get roasted here.

reply to post by Chance321


Like I said in a prior comment... just because my plumber is a drunk it don't mean that ALL plumbers are drunks!

And no, I didn't take your comment as saying anything negative about the survivors at all. It's most definitely a heinous crime and should not go unpunished. But come on... If Mr. Smith next door perpetrates a crime against me I'm gonna go after Mr. Smith next door, not his entire family...

Just a kind reminder to all you great posters....

The topic is Pope accused of crimes against humanity by victims of sex abuse

So I can understand discussions about litigation, crimes against humanity, sex abuse, the institutions of church and law, the nature of justice and social order, the process of law for clergy versus non-clergy... etc.

But discussions about the existence of God, the Devil, and other such matters are off-topic.

Thank you for your patience.

reply to post by Skorpiogurl


Sorry, littttttle misunderstanding, my fault. I didn't mean it to sound like I was taking issue with you, just restating my position to everyone else, my bad.