Lack of feminine characteristics...

World travel provides considerable insight into the question “what the hell has happened to the women?” because the full disaster fortunately appears to be limited to the women in America and to a culture that’s unable to see the forest for the trees.

Travel in the Orient gives one a chance to observe first-hand the hordes of older American men flocking to Asia, specifically Thailand and the Philippines, primarily to be around women that play to their strengths instead of their weaknesses. And of course, a different sexual economy.

In general, American women have become the dregs of womanhood, which is unfortunate because as little as 40 years ago they were considered the ‘top of the line’ and it was pleasure to be around them because of the image of beauty and allure that women around the world aspired toward.

Those days are long gone, and seen nearly everywhere now are fat, stupid, ugly bulldogs with bad attitudes. There was a time in this country when people knew that fat means low self esteem and many other bad qualities brought with it too… but these days that Truth is politically incorrect, along with many others.

Clearly women in the US lost their way deafened as they are with shrills of “I am Woman” and a totally misguided women’s lib that has distorted their natural power as women and driven men farther away from them, but even more sadly, brought their children closer and clinging to them.

America women have lost big-time; no longer are they mystical Goddesses with a Divine Mission within humanity to aspire men to be more than a lustful animals. Now they can only drive men (and their children) to the lowest levels where both appear to slouch around, aimlessly..

Certainly the wheel will turn and bring change but meanwhile it’s clear that many problems have developed in America because the women’s reach has exceeded their grasp and the most significant factor in America's decline is the women's negative influence that 3-4 generations ago was still positive.

In the natural order of things a woman’s job is to establish the family and raise the children and everywhere we see clear evidence of failure in this most basic task, and of course, the smokescreen of excuses they offer along with the fingers of blame they point at everyone else.

For the most part, American women have spread themselves too thin and over-priced themselves in the social and sexual marketplaces. They have destroyed their children’s lives and can’t hold onto a husband either. It’s time for them to finally take responsibility for the mess they've made and ask their partners (men) for help?”

These horrible fat women symbolically eat their children and have literally destroyed American culture. If they can't make a home, raise children, and inspire the male animal to be more than they are... then what good are they? What is a heartless woman's value in the scheme of things?

I originally posted this in the survival thread, but is bears repeating here:

Wow.

What a huge difference culture makes to your worldview.

The kind of women I grew up with and around, and I'm not just referring to the Apache ones, would be baffled by some of the comments in this thread, saddened, and probably more than a little pissed.

For instance, the woman who taught me to use tobacco moistened with saliva to draw insect poisons was Callie, a tough white woman friend of my Grandma's with three or four kids by different fathers. NO one called her immoral or anything bad: everyone was extremely unfailingly polite to her. It was't her looks, she was a rather dumpy woman dressed in boots, jeans and a plaid shirt most often. However, she customarily wore a belt knife and pistol, was known to have a boot knife, and usually had her Winchester or shotgun in her hand or handy. She herself was honest, tough, and polite, worked hard, didn't gossip that I knew of and was a fair hunter. She tolerated zero BS from anyone. If the SHTF when she was around, she'd be the one protecting the city boys, and God help any would-be rapists.

Grandma was so tough that the local cops would drive her home if she got too far into her cups at the Bluebonnet rather than confront her. Different times. She was highly respected by the town that grew up around her. She taught me the old ways and gave me examples of clear logical reasoning that have guided me throughout my life.

My own mother raced stock cars, ran bars, bands, hung out with a lot of famous CW stars like Hank Williams and Lefty Frizzell ( I have a song they co-wrote at an airport once, signed by Lefty and all the band), shot a guy once who tried to rape her, broke a friend out of jail. She was tough, too...I miss her every single moment of every day and take joy in remembering her life.

I guess my point is that I was taught that women are naturally tough, intelligent, capable, and indepedent. I expect those qualities in women. When the STHTF I've made it abundantly clear to the women I know that I will expect them clear-headed, capable, and willing to shoulder whatever burdens are required by the situation without whining or complaining. Healthy bitching is okay, as long as it elicits a laugh. I also expect them to contribute ideas and insights I would miss because of my maleness.

I've trained my granddaughter to look at the land as I was taught. She knows how not to be lost and knows the difference between not knowing precisely where you are and being lost. She can handle weapons and tools passably well, and can think through problems and anticipate several outcomes. She knows how to start a fire, how to cook, how to garden, and how to fish. She'll be fifteen this year, and is growing into a worthy woman.

These are the sorts of women I was told of growing up:

Gouyen

Gouyen, meaning "Wise Woman," was born into Chief Victorio's Warm Springs Apache band around 1880. One day, while the group was resting at Tres Castillos, New Mexico, it was attacked by Mexicans. When the offensive was over, seventy-eight Apaches had been murdered and only seventeen had escaped, including Gouyen and her young son, Kaywaykla. Her baby daughter, however, was murdered and shortly afterwards her husband was killed in a Comanche raid while visiting the Mescalero Apaches.

A legendary tale is told about the revenge of Gouyen. One night following her husband's death, she put on her buckskin puberty ceremony dress and left the camp carrying a water jug, dried meat, and a bone awl and sinew for repairing her moccasins. She was looking for the Comanche chief who had killed her husband. Finally, she found him engaged in a Victory Dance around a bonfire with her husband's scalp hanging from his belt. Gouyen slipped into the circle of dancers, seduced the chief, and killed him, avenging her husband's death. Then she scalped him, cut his beaded breechcloth from his body and tore off his moccasins. She then returned to her camp to present her in-laws with the Comanche leader's scalp, his clothing and his footwear.

Gouyen remarried an Apache warrior named Ka-ya-ten-nae. Later, she and her family were taken prisoner by the U.S. Army and held at Fort Sill, Oklahoma, where she died.

Lozen

Lozen was born into the Chihenne, Warm Springs Apache band, during the late 1840's. She was the sister of Chief Victorio and a skillful warrior, a prophet, and an outstanding medicine woman. Victorio is quoted as saying, "Lozen is my right hand . . . strong as a man , braver than most, and cunning in strategy, Lozen is a shield to her people."

Legend has it that Lozen was able to use her powers in battle to learn the movements of the enemy and that she helped each band that she accompanied to successfully avoid capture. After Victorio's death, Lozen continued to ride with Chief Nana, and eventually joined forces with Geronimo's band, eluding capture until she finally surrendered with this last group of free Apaches in 1886. She died of tuberculosis at the Mount Vernon Barracks in Mobile, Alabama.


140.247.102.177...

The stories of Geronimo, Crazy Horse, and Custer pale beside the tale of another warrior - one who fought relentlessly, successfully, and against all odds almost continuously for forty years. This warrior fought longer then Geronimo or Crazy Horse and more effectively than Custer. History suggest this warrior wielded supernatural powers, evaded successfully a full one-quarter of the United States Army, and displayed an epic personal courage and heroism. But you’ve probably never heard of her.” And it is no more than the truth, for who has ever heard of Lozen? This great warrior of the Apache is never mentioned in the White accounts of the Indian wars of the Southwest, and Aleshire believes that this was done by her own people. Not because they were ashamed of her, but because they wanted to protect her from the attention of the Whites who they had learned not to trust.


Lozenn is/was one of our most respected and revered warriors, probaly the greatest of us all. She fought in more campaigns and battles than any other Apache warrior, and I mean fought, with bow, with gun, with knife, and with teeth, she fought for our freedom. She was one of my role models for women growing up. How can I know her tale and think any woman weak or incapable? I could never disrespect women or her memory so.

If the Apache man defined the image of the warrior, raider and master tracker in the mystique of our western deserts, the Apache woman gave heart and sinew to her people under the punishing trials of a nomadic life.

The woman saw her worth recognized in the most fundamental traditions of the tribe. "At marriage a man goes to the camp of the girl’s parents to live," said one of Morris E. Opler’s Chiricahua Apache informants in his book An Apache Life-Way: The Economic, Social, & Religious Institutions of the Chiricahua Indians. "We do this because a woman is more valuable than a man. We do it to accommodate the woman. The son-in-law is considered a son and as one of the family. The in-laws depend a great deal on him. They depend on him for hunting and all kinds of work. He is almost a slave to them."


www.desertusa.com...

What is the Apache Sunrise Ceremony?

The Apache Sunrise Ceremony or na'ii'ees is an arduous communal four-day ceremony that Apache girls of the past and present experience soon after their first menstruation. Through numerous sacred ceremonies, dances, songs, and enactments, the girls become imbued with the physical and spiritual power of White Painted Woman, and embrace their role as women of the Apache nation.

For most of the four days and nights, to songs and prayers, they dance, as well as run toward the four directions. During this time, they also participate in and conduct sacred rituals, receiving and giving both gifts and blessings, and experiencing their own capacity to heal.

In the early 1900s, when the U.S. government banned Native American spiritual practices and rituals, conducting the Sunrise Ceremony was an illegal act; as a result, its practice diminished, and those ceremonies that did occur were conducted secretly.

Not until 1978, when the American Indian Religious Freedom Act was passed, was the Sunrise Ceremony openly re-established on most reservations. But even today, because of the expense and time involved - which also includes four days of preparation and four days of teaching and recovery - some girls celebrate for one or two days, rather than have four day ceremonies. The families of girls entering puberty in a particular year may also sponsor joint Sunrise ceremonies, in which two or more newly menstruating girls celebrate the rites of Changing Women together.


www.webwinds.com...

To all of the women on this thread:

Never doubt that you are as capable, intelligent, courageous and enduring as any man.

Shake off any residual mental images of women as dependent, frail, ignorant or incapable.

Before the SHTF, figure out what skills you'll need and develop them. Learn how not to be lost no matter where you are. Skillsets are far more important that stuff, with the right skillsets you can replace stuff, but all the stuff in the world won't replace missing skillsets.

....Ok, side instruction for those never told: in the wilderness or strange city, always pick out four different peaks, tall trees, or other landmarks, one for each direction, tall enough to be seen from low or blocked places. Chances are you'll be able to keep at least two in sight at all times, three frequently. Combine that with a physical or mental map of the broader area, and you can never get lost.


When the SHTF I fully expect women to be full partners in survival, not dependents, sex toys, or victims. Without them there is no point and no fun.

Originally posted by ag893
Don't doubt yourself. You are absolute correct in your asessment. Ever since the feminist movement, women here in the states have turned their back on femininity, humilty, and grace and have turned into masculine, aggressive, and out of control women who aim to dominate men in every field and aspect of life. This is why women complain of the shortage of the few good men that are left in this country. They go to other countries to find women that are still feminine and humble. No one wants American women because they have got their values f-ed up. They want to be equal in relationships and pay their own bills but yet want a strong and masculine man to take care of them. They pass over the good shy guys for the bad ones. They demonize men at every chance they get and yet complain that they want the perfect man. A lot of females dress slutty and whorish nowadays because they want to be "liberated" and "sexy" but at the same time, want a man to respect them. They give themselves an appointed time when they will have sex with a man. They call it "giving it up" these days. And they will wait until a specific amount of dates to decide to give themselves to a man that has no plans to show them their value to him by marrying her. The feminist movement has completely destroyed American women and their values. Back in the days it didn't take being 30 years old to have some class. Now, you'll be hard pressed to find a female that has respect for herself, men, and others as well.
It's a sick process. I'm not wifing up any female here in the states because females here don't value their man and have no respect for them either. I'm the head of my household and i'll be damned if I take a backseat and let you run things.

 

Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

 

A star for you, yes well said.

I don't intend to piss any women off here, just want to share my point of view, other men may not mind this but I do.
Tattoos on a woman, I find it disgusting, it sends the wrong message, it doesn't look clean, it is definitely not feminine, and it's so permanent.
Myself I would never get a tattoo, and I'm a guy.

reply to post by apacheman



You expect all that?!

Prepare to be massively disappointed.



Listen, there are some exceptionally intelligent women out there. Exceptionally strong, exceptionally wise, exceptionally fierce...but it's EXCEPTIONAL, not the norm.

If you can't understand that men and women have different levels of various hormones, and for good reason, then fine.

A lot of American men seem insecure and unwilling to accept strong, intelligent women as feminine for some reason.

I was raised around strong women as I mentioned in the post above, and find the preferred flavor of women by weak men to be unappealing to me. A woman can be, should be, a capable and self-sufficient stand-alone person first, []then a partner, wife, or mother. I absolutely don't want a dependent, insecure, weak woman for any purpose I can think of...that isn't at all feminine to me.

Being feminine doesn't preclude being competent and tough. Being feminine means a woman can take a moment to touch up her eyes after the firefight and we're done reloading.

For me, being feminine means being tough as nails when necessary, and as soft, cuddly and warm as kitten whenever possible; there's no conflict there for me. I've been fortunate enough to have shared parts of my life with such women, but they are rare and tend to follow their own paths. I've delighted in their company and don't begrudge them their own journeys.

Like beauty, feminity is in the eye of the beholder.

reply to post by unityemissions


Not just expect it, I strive to ensure it.The women I know and accept in my life as close friends actually are like that, more so with my help and expectations. Once I knock some of the Christian crap out of their heads, they begin to grow as strong people. By "knock", I mean teach through example and thought, not beat them up.

Mostly they just need to know what's possible and that it's ok to be both strong and feminine. I'd trust several I know to have my back under any circumstances and they are all very feminine.

There are more than you give credit for.

Good question OP

In my case i like a nice feminine women

I don't want to be rude and insult anybody but i really can't stand women who act like men and have this ego problem its IMO the sol reason more and more marriages are breaking down in todays modern society's, and i do believe some not all women abuse there freedom and interpret them as something else, maybe this is how its suppose to be but its not the way i like it or feel it should be, or maybe we are changing things... how ever not all women are like this thank god there are still some traditional down to earth ladies left out there for me

Originally posted by hawaii50th

Tattoos on a woman, I find it disgusting, it sends the wrong message, it doesn't look clean, it is definitely not feminine, and it's so permanent.
Myself I would never get a tattoo, and I'm a guy.

A woman is not (doesn't look) clean - because she has a tattoo?

Interesting choice of words.

I'd say you have issues that have nothing to do with women.

reply to post by Yeah-Alright


speaking as a man, i have had many personal experiences where in certain instances women want all the perks a man gets until they dislike one of the aspects of the job. ie. they want to be respceted like a man but get mad if you don't open a door for them. i would not open a door for a man. next; when i was heavy into the martial arts most of the women in my school wanted the same rank/belt as the men but they did not want to to the same hard or strenuous test to get the belt. i am all for women's equailities but there is a double standard in the west .

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by hawaii50th

Tattoos on a woman, I find it disgusting, it sends the wrong message, it doesn't look clean, it is definitely not feminine, and it's so permanent.
Myself I would never get a tattoo, and I'm a guy.

A woman is not (doesn't look) clean - because she has a tattoo?

Interesting choice of words.

I'd say you have issues that have nothing to do with women.

No kidding. Tattoos used to virtually be a prerequisite for me to date somebody... or at least piercings. It says you care enough about your body to decorate it. In any case, when my daughter reaches the age of reason, I'll fully endorse her body modification wishes. There is nothing "un-feminine" about body art. To say that make-up and accessories are a woman's domain but ink on your skin is a man's is quite the double-standard.

reply to post by hp1229


Just saying in response to your "penis envy"....

en.wikipedia.org...

Vagina Envy

Womb envy denotes the envy men feel towards a woman’s primary role in nurturing and sustaining life. In coining the term, the Neo-Freudian psychiatrist Karen Horney (1885–1952) proposed that men experience womb envy more powerfully than women experience penis envy, because “men need to disparage women more than women need to disparage men”

womb envy is a powerful, elementary factor in the psychological insecurity suffered by many men.

another words

men who are envious of womens reproductive power insist that a “real man” must be “not-a-woman”, thus they seek to socially dominate women

and furthermore

Hendrik Ruitenbeek relates vagina envy to men’s desire to be able to give birth and to urinate and to masturbate in ways physically different from those available to men, and that such psychological envy might produce misogyny in neurotic men. Moreover, in Vagina Envy in Men (1993), the physician Harold Tarpley elucidates the theoretic differences among the constructs of vagina envy, womb envy, breast envy, and parition envy, emotions wherein men suffer envy — “a grudging desire for another's excellence or advantage” — of women’s female biologic capabilities of pregnancy, parturition, breast feeding, and the of the social-role freedom to physically nurture children.

Basically.....

Men who want to dominate women and believe that a real woman is submissive, actually have "vagina envy". They "want" a vagina, but the only way they can "have" one is to dominate a woman, beat her into submission, DOMINATE her, that way he can feel he finally has a vagina, at least he can "own" one if he can't actually "have" one.

So, thanks for bringing that to my attention, and leading me to understanding misogynist better. From now on, when I run into a man who feels he has a right to dominate a woman, I will just smile to myself, and realize he has vagina envy, and is a bit neurotic.

Poor poor guy with vagina envy, I can then feel compassion for him, instead of confused and angry at his misogynistic outlook.

Harm None
Peace

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by hawaii50th

Tattoos on a woman, I find it disgusting, it sends the wrong message, it doesn't look clean, it is definitely not feminine, and it's so permanent.
Myself I would never get a tattoo, and I'm a guy.

A woman is not (doesn't look) clean - because she has a tattoo?

Interesting choice of words.

I'd say you have issues that have nothing to do with women.

So tell me if I have issues what issues do I have? I'd like to know so I have something to go by.
You think you know tell me.
By the way are you a woman?

I know one thing, a person shares their own personal view on what they like and don't like for them self, and right away gets put down. This says to me that the one putting me down because of my personnel likes and dislikes, means that your the one with issues, insecurities for one.

Woman Know your Limits youtube video

www.youtube.com...



my first attempt to posting a video

Originally posted by Cuervo

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by hawaii50th

Tattoos on a woman, I find it disgusting, it sends the wrong message, it doesn't look clean, it is definitely not feminine, and it's so permanent.
Myself I would never get a tattoo, and I'm a guy.

A woman is not (doesn't look) clean - because she has a tattoo?

Interesting choice of words.

I'd say you have issues that have nothing to do with women.

No kidding. Tattoos used to virtually be a prerequisite for me to date somebody... or at least piercings. It says you care enough about your body to decorate it. In any case, when my daughter reaches the age of reason, I'll fully endorse her body modification wishes. There is nothing "un-feminine" about body art. To say that make-up and accessories are a woman's domain but ink on your skin is a man's is quite the double-standard.

edit on 8-3-2011 by Cuervo because: Only on my second cup of coffee...

This is my personal taste, and not for anyone else. Whatever turns you on is your thing and no one else.

Originally posted by hawaii50th

Originally posted by Cuervo

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by hawaii50th

Tattoos on a woman, I find it disgusting, it sends the wrong message, it doesn't look clean, it is definitely not feminine, and it's so permanent.
Myself I would never get a tattoo, and I'm a guy.

A woman is not (doesn't look) clean - because she has a tattoo?

Interesting choice of words.

I'd say you have issues that have nothing to do with women.

No kidding. Tattoos used to virtually be a prerequisite for me to date somebody... or at least piercings. It says you care enough about your body to decorate it. In any case, when my daughter reaches the age of reason, I'll fully endorse her body modification wishes. There is nothing "un-feminine" about body art. To say that make-up and accessories are a woman's domain but ink on your skin is a man's is quite the double-standard.

edit on 8-3-2011 by Cuervo because: Only on my second cup of coffee...

This is my personal taste, and not for anyone else. Whatever turns you on is your thing and no one else.

Fair enough. Just keep in mind that when you share tastes and opinions that are negative and abrasive, you will get negative and abrasive responses. I'm sure the ATS crowd has plenty of beautiful tattooed chicks reading your declaration of them being unclean and disgusting so don't be surprised if you offend some people.

Originally posted by hawaii50th
This is my personal taste, and not for anyone else. Whatever turns you on is your thing and no one else.

Sorry - - but a "woman appearing clean" - - - is odd. Your choice of words is odd.

It makes my head pound with religious overtones. That women need to be pure.

You know what I like? You cant call Jews fat ugly lazy nasty bulldogs or the dregs of humanity. You cant say that about blacks. Or really, anyone on ATS but women and get away with it.

Only when you are being a misogynist can you really just stop even pretending to care about making a valid argument and just vent your sick hatred with such vigor and lack or concern for any consequences.

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by hawaii50th
This is my personal taste, and not for anyone else. Whatever turns you on is your thing and no one else.

Sorry - - but a "woman appearing clean" - - - is odd. Your choice of words is odd.

It makes my head pound with religious overtones. That women need to be pure.

It's my own prerogative to want a woman with no tattoos, and if your a woman and I offended you by my comment, than I apologize to you and all the other women out there that may read my post.
I should have just said, that I prefer a woman with no tattoos period.
There's a lot of beautiful ladies with tattoos, but tattoos are not my thing.

wow...Im gone for a while to...well...homeschool my kids, set up the garden fencing and cater a lunch and I come back to find a buttload of armchair psychologists, anthropologists, sex therapists and a bunch of other cluless responses that let me know that men just dont get it. Well...at least a lot of them dont, which is why the same core group of guys is getting laid while others skulk around looking at porn and philosophizing about how a real woman should be if they ever get their hands on one. Riiiiiiiiiiiiight. Still arguing about what femininity is and and still tying it into coquetry and social graces and other things that are TAUGHT and not inherently feminine. I notice how no one dares to take on strong nurturers. Women like me who do all that stuff that women are "supposed" to do like tend home and hearth and husband but still like to pound shots, fire weapons and yes....my tattoo sleeves are AWESOME. Is this shameless self promotion? Of sorts. Mainly because like in the cases with children...men who have the most to say about how women should be DON'T HAVE ONE. And yet they still dont see how their attitude and empty bed tie together.

I constantly see trashy chicks, welfare queens and single moms lumped together. That a single mom might be better of without the jackass who knocked her up doesnt even seem to register. That she could be financially sound as well as mentally capable doesnt register. That there have been plenty of upstanding, innovative and creative people who come from single parent homes doesnt seem to register. And for the clueless folks who think that men cannot gain custody of children....gotta call bull# on that because my brother in law gained custody of his son no problem and yes he gets child support. I know several mothers who pay child support for children living outside the home. Nowadays they do whats best for the child and thats not always the mother. Its time men got down off that cross, used the wood to build a bridge and GET OVER IT.

And all this talk of asian women and how they are far more "with it" in regards to how women should be....you do realize that their men have to meet certain unspoken requirements in regards to income and earning potential. That those docile little cuties will get downright frosty in the face of an unworthy male. Or did you not think that you would have to bring something to the table as well? That being docile equates to being desperate or grateful for whatever you can get? I recently watched a documentary about how in China the generation of only children is now beginning to have families of their own. And the women work too! Even the ones with children. There are elite daycare and birthing centers all over asia for upwardly mobile moms and just because your girlfriend is too polite to tell you that your job and bank account make a difference doesnt mean she's not thinking it.

And therein lies the irony. You think women around the world dont think like western ones? They do...they have just been taught to let the men keep face. Its not about them being better....its about them being conditioned to not make waves. Trust that there are plenty of opinions and views simmering beneath veils and burkas and in the minds of other women even as they sit with their hands folded neatly and lips pressed together. Try observing them when they are around nothing but their own kind and see if its the same. Funny.......men are still falling for that ole gag, bwahahahahaha!

Originally posted by dalloway
I tend to think we women messed up the whole notion of equal rights and feminism when we thought we had to be just like men in order to be seen as equal to them. The idea of equality was not such a bad thing, but as women, I think we should have focused more on being acknowledged and appreciated for our equal value to society, rather than mandating that we had to totally reinvent ourselves to be functionally equal to men by adopting masculine mannerisms and behavior. This skewed and misunderstood thinking led us to try to become identical to men, and in the process, we denied and invalidated our own unique and natural feminine traits.

ding ding ding ding ding!!!

I've never thought of men as being superior to women overall. I always thought we had our specialties and performed our functions well. We're different yet equal....that should be glaringly evident.