Auschwitz Gas Chambers a Myth?

Originally posted by Josephus23

BTW I got a PM from a way high up (lets say that it was probably an owner) telling me to stop this thread and that is all.
ATS has been compromised.

That was a great post until it came to this.

Can you prove this allegation because this would be truly earth-shattering if true.

If not, I highly suggest you retract it.

How exactly are you going to stop this thread?

(If ATS wanted it stopped it would have been already)

By the way, if I thought ATS was in any way "compromised" I would not be here... Ever!

You are looking for imaginary enemies in all the wrong places my friend.

reply to post by Kailassa


So many straw (man) arguments...man, I can build me a hut.

Lamp and soap again

–
who said what? Who cares really. Another straw man argument.

How reliable are the reports of survivors?

- If there are not reliable, and if Nazi officials testimonies and memoirs are not reliable, and if Nazis documentation is not reliable, and if liberators testimonies are not reliable, and if forensic research by professionals is not reliable, and photographic evidence is not reliable...than what is ? ProtoPlasmic theories maybe?

Bringing the financial state of the Holocaust survivors can win you the guinness book of records of the best straw man argument ever.
And you had the audacity to blame someone else earlier for using such methods.
Lame.

reply to post by Stormdancer777


The only information that has been shown to me are anecdotal after the fact reports that rely on the fact that the German's used word like "special treatment" or "Job" instead or "mass killing by gas" as hidden code due to the nature of what they were actually doing. That is soooo convincing.
Do you mean that they said one thing but they really meant something different that only those that promote the holocaust were made aware of.
Pretty stupid of the Germans if you ask me.

I have seen nothing concrete.
I have anecdotal reports from those in the labor camps
I have read after the fact reports from soldiers who "liberated the Jews"
(actually they helped to kill many of them by bombing the German supply lines)
And there seems to be a bit of a conundrum regarding this whole cyanide issue
I am told that Auschwitz was rebuilt so it was not possible for Leuchter to discover cyanide residue
But then I am told later that more diligent and specific tests did in fact find this elusive residue
Then that cyanide obviously must have been put there during the reconstruction

The state of Israel and many of its supporters OWN every media outlet in America
Nearly all media outlets have been consolidated and bought by 5 corporations run by Zionist-Jews
1) Time Warner (CEO Gerald Levin/Zionist)
2) Disney (CEO Michael Eisner/Zionist)
3) Viacom (CEO Sumner Redstone/Zionist)
4) NBC Universal (CEO Edgar Bronfman Jr./Zionist)
5) Fox Entertainment (CEO Rupert Murdoch/Zionist)

link to source

So you see I am having to provide you with proof that has been filtered through a media that is owned by people who support YOUR cause.
What is your take on the Israeli attack on the USS Liberty that was an outright act of war but yet the zionist controlled media and education system has all but eliminated from history.

If you can actually make a convincing case regarding the holocaust of YOUR people, the Jews, and convince me that it is somehow grotesquely and disproportionately horrific as compared to the holocaust of my people, the Native Americans, then I will spend an entire day on ATS promoting the glories of Jewry and you have not only my word for this deal but several witnesses to it as well.
(who I know would love to see me eat my words)
It is a win/win for you.
You take the bet and win I become humiliated.
You take the bet and you lose then nothing changes because you have nothing hinging on the bet to lose.
(But your pride maybe)

Wanna make the deal?

reply to post by Fractured.Facade


I saw a poster pick up 14 stars yesterday in about as many seconds, on a thread that really only a few people are following and participating in.

That's a logistical and statistical and improbable occurence.

That post now 2 pages back has over 28 stars when I last looked.

It was nothing but a well worded entreaty to not listen to a word I have to say on this subject.

So some one is trying to manipulate appearnces in this thread, and present a picture artificially to influence it.

Who that is could only be someone with the logistical and technical ability to manipulate the system that rapidly.

That is not limited to management, Internet disinformation groups have that many members on line at one time, that could create such a thing to happen too, as a way to discredit a poster and influence and dominate an argument, steer it and distrubt it.

Conspiracies are always about motive and oppotrunity, having the opportunity alone meaning the logistical ability to do something that others can't leads to becoming a suspect.

If no one wants to admit honestly what they are doing, and I would not hold my breath for that to happen, then it leads to speculation.

Divide and conquer.

Who is ever doing it I remain unimpressed, I post at my own discretion, that no one pays me for, and the Site has the discretion to choose to not allow me to do that.

There really are only a handful of people following this thread, just like there are only 600,000 Jewish souls in their religion, and lets face it this is a thread trying to convince you a whole lot more than that died.

An illusion maintained through illusion, and getting you to agree to make that illusion something to manipulate you with.

Get that close to the core of the conspiracy that drives this planet, and it makes people nervous, I really wonder why?

reply to post by Fractured.Facade


I retracted the statement out of respect but it happened and I care not if believe me.

I was as surprised as you are
****especially if you knew who the sender was*****

If you haven't noticed, things have changed a LOT around here since some things supposedly did not happen that I will not mention

(they are events that are similar to what happens when people pay money to settle a a lawsuit or spend time on capital hill talking to congress)

but of course that is metaphor only

NOTHING OF THAT NATURE HAPPENED HERE AT ATS

I come here to spread the truth because I have been lead to do so.

I am cordial and I congratulate good efforts but that does not change the fact that we have an enemy
It is real and its presence is seen often here at ATS

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


Perceptions and illusions are always easily manipulated by any side of any given subject here.

For example:

This post: www.abovetopsecret.com...

Contained a very serious and as yet still unsubstantiated allegation that a site owner may have ordered this member to "stop this thread" which has apparently been removed by that member after an edit.

I asked for proof of that in this post: www.abovetopsecret.com...

Where a preserved, exact, unedited quote of the original allegation can be found!

Perception is everything, and such an allegation would require proof, and since apparently there is none, it raises serious credibility doubts, and questions regarding everything this poster has presented.

As for the stars... really what do they mean anyway?

Are you suggesting that somehow they are manipulated by the PTB at ATS, and if so can YOU provide any evidence of that please sir, for the sake of compelling conversation of course.

reply to post by Josephus23

Thanks.
We agree on the most important thing, IMO, and that's the importance of differentiating between what we believe, for whatever reason, and what we actually know.
When we analyse our "knowledge" carefully, very little is actual knowledge. Most of it is belief, with varying amounts of evidence to back that belief up. And that evidence is something we should always be prepared to re-question.

As a teenager my heart broke over stories of teenagers who had suffered in WWII, particularly the Hiroshima survivers and the Jewish girls captured by the Germans. I was lucky enough to have access to an excellent library where the librarian was particularly interested in acquiring such accounts.

It's in memory of those girls I read about that I want to sort the chaff from the hay in these matters. The criminalizing of questions regarding the holocaust, and the innuendo leveled at those who want to discuss what happened, are an insult to the memories of the many that did perish in these events.

reply to post by Fractured.Facade


I can tell you from my own experience with TPTB here at ATS that proto is right on the money.

The person that PM'd me knows who they are and they know that they crossed the line by doing what they did, but I will keep it anonymous until it becomes the right time to spill the beans.
What happened to me did not contain a link to a post like all MOD PM's do concerning removal of posts or warnings.
It was a warning shot aimed close enough to my head to scare me enough to leave this subject alone.

But obviously the sender has no idea that I do not care one iota about life or death.
I have lived the dream and had it all taken away from me.

To quote Proto who quoted Janis Joplin-
"Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose"

When I started this thread I had no idea that it would cause the kind of reaction that it did.
I kind of regret doing it in all honesty.

My goal in life is not to demean and humiliate people.
That is why I pay taxes so that the US Army can do it in remote locations for me.

Originally posted by Josephus23
reply to post by Fractured.Facade

 

I retracted the statement out of respect but it happened and I care not if believe me.

Why retract it if it was true?

Out of respect?

Did it happen for real, or not?

It is your credibility on the line here, do with it what you will.

reply to post by Fractured.Facade


I removed the quote out of respect for the ATS staff my friend.
It is due to a personal value that you probably could not even begin to comprehend.


Also, I would ask that you keep the demeanor respectful toward me as I have toward you.

Questioning my credibility concerning a matter of which you have no knowledge but that of second hand...

It is known as triangulation in psychology and is historically a very bad idea.

Originally posted by gravitational
reply to post by Kailassa

 

who said what? Who cares really.

And to think I expected you to thank me for setting you straight about the fact that even the Jewish historians you referred me to agree almost all of the Zyklon B used in Auschwitz was used to kill lice . . .

- If there are not reliable, and if Nazi officials testimonies and memoirs are not reliable, and if Nazis documentation is not reliable, and if liberators testimonies are not reliable, and if forensic research by professionals is not reliable, and photographic evidence is not reliable...than what is?

This is wonderful. Twice in one thread we agree.
I've been pondering exactly that question myself.
With this frame of mind, you'd also do well in UFO threads, where people need to have some logic pointed out to them.

ProtoPlasmic theories maybe?

Did you find his discussion of the previous uses of 6x10* numbers enlightening?
I'd wondered myself what the six million meant, thinking it was too coincidental that the same number had been used twice previously about Jews in trouble in Europe.

Bringing the financial state of the Holocaust survivors can win you the guinness book of records of the best straw man argument ever.

You brought up the topic of the survivors.
So I read about them, and thought it worth pointing out, in the light of previous discussion in this thread, how little those running the state of Israel care about the holocaust victims. You didn't find their plight in Israel surprising?

And you had the audacity to blame someone else earlier for using such methods.

Did I really blame someone else earlier for using such methods?
would you like to show me where?

Kailassa, josephus and all other deiners here. I'm confused. Please help me out here !!!

You are claiming that Ziklon-B was used for delousing and not for extermination.
Am I right so far?

Then you claim, no Ziklon-B traces were found in Auschwitz – Birkenau, so this is a proof people were not exterminated by gas.
Am I right again?

So which is it? You can't have it both ways.

Originally posted by Josephus23
reply to post by Fractured.Facade

 

I removed the quote out of respect for the ATS staff my friend.
It is due to a personal value that you probably could not even begin to comprehend.

Obviously... I don't!

You said:

"I come here to spread the truth because I have been lead to do so. "

Very hard to believe now.

If your allegation were indeed true, you would do whatever it takes to "spread" that truth, regardless of the sacrifice it may require.

Apparently the line between truth and BS here at ATS has just became much more vague.

Nicely done.

reply to post by gravitational


I have never once emphatically claimed that xyclon B was used for anything in the labor camps.
The issue is a red herring that I adamantly avoid.

If you look through my posts, I focus on very certain issues only and most concern logistics.

You are pulling a straw man argument and it is not working.

I posted a challenge to Stormdancer a couple posts up
Since you basically committed yet another logical fallacy by attributing a statement to me that I have not made

Then why don't YOU take me up on my challenge?

reply to post by Fractured.Facade


Your personal attacks disguised as playful banter only reinforce your lack of quality evidence needed to support a premise that I have yet to see you state.

Another logical fallacy
Argument ad hominem

This is not about me and you.
This is about thread.
Please keep it on topic.

reply to post by Josephus23


It is not a personal attack my friend, so please don't take it personally, I was merely questioning an allegation you made in this discussion. Unless the rules have changed, questioning an allegation here is still fair game?

Because it goes to credibility, it is on topic.

Everyone is still free to believe whatever they want to, that is the beauty of ATS.

Thank you for responding to my queries, no further discussion of that line of thought is required.

I'm convinced.

Originally posted by Josephus23
reply to post by Fractured.Facade

 

I can tell you from my own experience with TPTB here at ATS that proto is right on the money.

The person that PM'd me knows who they are and they know that they crossed the line by doing what they did, but I will keep it anonymous until it becomes the right time to spill the beans.
What happened to me did not contain a link to a post like all MOD PM's do concerning removal of posts or warnings.
It was a warning shot aimed close enough to my head to scare me enough to leave this subject alone.

But obviously the sender has no idea that I do not care one iota about life or death.
I have lived the dream and had it all taken away from me.

To quote Proto who quoted Janis Joplin-
"Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose"

When I started this thread I had no idea that it would cause the kind of reaction that it did.
I kind of regret doing it in all honesty.

My goal in life is not to demean and humiliate people.
That is why I pay taxes so that the US Army can do it in remote locations for me.

edit on 10/31/2010 by Josephus23 because: (no reason given)

Sorry about that buddy, I should not have participated in this thread just because it's one of your threads.

I don't often participate in these threads, and I looked at a couple I didn't participate in last night, and it died out in a couple days with out all this level of attention.

Right now we have an illusion that 28 people think I am a horrible guy for talking about this subject and want you to think so too.

There are only 9 people on ATS who would star anything that disparages me in any way just for the act. So we can assume 9 of them are those people, and be fair, we can assume the 6 people who are very angry over any discussing this topic and display it in every post did, so now we are up to 15.

Believing then that 15 other people saw the thread within two hours and singled in on just that post as the only one in the thread worthy of a star, not even the pro don't you dare deny the holocaust posts.

While people keep telling me everything is not a conspiracy.

On a thread where they are actually conspiring to single out what was really just an ad homin attack on me.

That was not singled out by any member of the staff, on a thread where its being closely watched, and I would bet a post that widely starred probably got a round or two of applause as well.

Double standards, rules apply to those who can't control the ruling, to benefit those that can control you some how through the ruling.

The entire world is run by double standards based on that, so it should come as no surprise to anyone, and no surprise to those people why some of us just don't want to live in a double standard where everyone wants to tell us what to do and control us for some silly reason that we don't agree with.

The minute we start agreeing with them, then well, there is no hope at all.

We accept it's all a lie, we exist only to serve and enrich and obey others and if we want to pretend we are free, to be happy they will let us tell us we are, as long as we think like they tell us, surrender what they tell us, and do what they tell us.

Which amazingly some people hope to achieve through a burnt offering and sacrifice!

So now you know how they can come in handy!

One of the many barriers to attempting to have a serious, pragmatic discussion about what happened at Auschwitz with the revisionists posting in this thread, is that every time they are shown evidence that contradicts their version of events, they claim that the evidence in question is fabricated, without ever backing that claim up.
It's simply not intelligent.

I've never been presented with the idea that the Jews arranged the holocaust themselves until this thread, but be assured I expect to remember it for a long time, as one of the most absurd, psychotic and paranoid concepts I ever heard from somebody who isn't clearly suffering mental illness.

Originally posted by Josephus23
reply to post by gravitational

 

I have never once emphatically claimed that xyclon B was used for anything in the labor camps.
The issue is a red herring that I adamantly avoid.

If you look through my posts, I focus on very certain issues only and most concern logistics.

You are pulling a straw man argument and it is not working.

I posted a challenge to Stormdancer a couple posts up
Since you basically committed yet another logical fallacy by attributing a statement to me that I have not made

Then why don't YOU take me up on my challenge?

You want to talk about logical fallacy ? Fine by me.
Did you even read the Leuchter report? That is after all the foundation on which you built this thread in the first place. To prove there were no gas chambers in Aschwitz.
Yet...Leuchter himself admits finding traces of cyanide in delousing rooms, hence – Zyclone_B was present in Auschwitz.

Prussian blue
Leuchter's opposition to the possibility of homicidal gassings at Auschwitz relies on residual cyanide remains found in the homicidal gas chambers and delousing chambers at Auschwitz.[2]:167 While both facilities were exposed to the same substance (Zyklon B), many of the delousing chambers are stained with an iron based compound known as Prussian blue, which is not apparent in the homicidal gas chambers.[4] It is not only this disparity that Leuchter cites, but accordingly from his samples (which included measurements of it) that he claims he measured much more cyanide in the delousing chambers than in the gas chambers, which he argues is inconsistent between the amounts necessary to kill human beings and lice.[2]:167 This argument is often cited by Holocaust deniers, and similar claims are also made by Germar Rudolf.

en.wikipedia.org...

So I ask again. Which is it?

Originally posted by gravitational
Kailassa, josephus and all other deiners here. I'm confused.

Again we agree.

You are claiming that Ziklon-B was used for delousing and not for extermination.

You are addressing three people at once, and I can only speak for myself.
1. It's your own source that stated at least 90% of the Zyklon B was used to kill lice.
2. If you can show me anywhere that I've stated no-one was killed by gas, then I'll explain why I would state such a thing.

Am I right so far?

No.

Then you claim, no Ziklon-B traces were found in Auschwitz – Birkenau, so this is a proof people were not exterminated by gas.
Am I right again?

No. Did you actually read this thread?

So which is it? You can't have it both ways.

Do you understand the concept of having an open mind, and being more interested in research than in the sacred tenets of a vested interest group which is working to stifle such research?