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Auschwitz Gas Chambers a Myth?

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posted on Oct, 21 2010 @ 06:39 PM
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Greetings ATS!!
Before I begin this thread, I would like to say that this is not in any way revisionist history concerning “the” holocaust. This is simply a thread concerning a video that I found to be interesting.

May I introduce Fred Leuchter Jr. or as he is affectionately known. . .

Dr. Death

He is the foremost American expert in executions, and he was asked to serve as expert testimony for the trial of Ernst Zundel. After examining the supposed gas chambers at Auschwitz, he concluded that the structures at Auschwitz were not possible to be used for the extermination of mass humans using gas.

I expect that this thread will cause some pretty harsh reactions.
The reactions will probably be very similar to what is shown on the video.

This gentleman took samples from the walls of Auschwitz, and the tests came back that no residual cyanide was found on the walls of the supposed gas chambers.
The interviews are very much black and white. Either people agreed with him or they were very much against him. I found the interview of the individual who conducted the tests on the material from the walls to be the most interesting.
His initial findings were that no residual cyanide was to be found on the wall scrapings.
But then, when he was asked to testify in the case he said that it was impossible to know if cyanide was on the walls. (this was interesting because by concluding that his tests were inconclusive he called into question his own competency regarding the initial tests)
And then when he found out that this was a case against Ernst Zundel concerning gas chambers at Auschwithz, he actually began to attack the credibility of Fred Leuchter.

The individuals who are critical of Mr. Leuchter in the video engage in an untold number of logical fallacies.
The big two that I notice are:
1) Appeal to emotion
2) Argument against the man

It is really unbelievable to see these people attack this man’s conclusions by criticizing him as an individual.

It is also truly sad that people who are very much racist have leeched onto his work while giving firepower to those that oppose Leuchter's findings.

This man Leuchter wholly believed that the mass extermination of humans by gas occurred but yet after seeing the actual sites and inspecting them, he reversed his view. Simply because of his actions concerning the Zundel trial and the report on his findings, he has lost his marriage, his job, an untold number of friends, and has battled in court to clear his name.
I am interested to see what the reactions are to the video.

Please do not call me anti-semitic or a revisionist because that would be incorrect.

As far as my personal opinion on this, I agree with Leuchter's statement that as an American we have freedom of speech and the fact that Zundel was tried and and is now a convicted felon for expressing his opinions is the antithesis of what it means to be an American.


Google Video Link

edit on 10/21/2010 by Josephus23 because: missing words



posted on Oct, 21 2010 @ 06:57 PM
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I seen a documentary on this before, history channel i think sometime this year or last. I am 35, and have polish in my bloodline. when i was 17 in 1992, a freind at work allowed me to stay with his mom in southern poland, for a summer vacation! so i felt it was a once in a lifetime opportunity, so i did it!
They took me too Auswitch. I took so many many pictures in thier. The guy leading the tourist party we wer ein, was german, old man, outside the gas chamber, they didnt wanna let us in. the doors were steel if i remember correctly, thick. I cannot remember the exact dimensions of the room, but i remember asking him how many people the nazis put in it..I do remember him replying "it depends" "the jews were so malnourished, it would depend on thier body sizes..500-700 people peope be stuffed n cramped into the room, where ontop and off right, thier were small brick smokestacks* those...the nazis dropped the cans of hydrogen cyanide through. The jews were being told they were being given a shower for health and lice reasons* they had an idea..they werent coming outta the showers.
He also showed us the ovens...thier were 4 of them i belive...3 were actually used, one to the left if ia remember correclty was like a backup or something...
Inside the compound* were in in a room painted white. it was Joseph mengeles room, that was converted into a tourist se it with your own eyes roomo* entering the room, to the left, thier were big glas windows, airtight..some had hair in it, others had shoes, briefcases, glasses....and one window had a big pile of open greenish cans of hydrogen cyanide.
so! in reply to this post...after seeing what i saw i belive they used them*



posted on Oct, 21 2010 @ 07:03 PM
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reply to post by ziggy1706
 


Thank you for the respectful reply.

I do not know what I think to be totally honest with you.

I would have to actually visit the sites for myself before I made a concrete decision on this issue but I do not find this man to be in any way anti-semitic and I found that portion of the video very disturbing.
I saw a man who applied the knowledge of what was his life's work to a situation and he was then lambasted for doing so.

I honestly felt sorry for him but I was very humbled at his resolve and the fact that he has a set of values and is sticking by those values through thick and thin.

Thanks for replying.



posted on Oct, 21 2010 @ 07:16 PM
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reply to post by Josephus23
 



This gentleman took samples from the walls of Auschwitz

I'm 15 minutes into the video and so far there's no mention of gas chambers or auschwitz at all. The video is an hour and a half long. Would you give timestamps for the relevant portions?



His initial findings were that no residual cyanide was to be found on the wall scrapings.
But then, when he was asked to testify in the case he said that it was impossible to know if cyanide was on the walls. (this was interesting because by concluding that his tests were inconclusive he called into question his own competency regarding the initial tests)

...or he meant "impossible" in the sense that after 50 years, he didn't expect there to be any measurable traces left.
edit on 21-10-2010 by LordBucket because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 21 2010 @ 07:21 PM
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reply to post by Josephus23
 


I am just curious, if you don't mind me asking... what lineage are you from and of what faith. The information that I have seen on the murder of the Jews in WW2 is unquestionable; I watched this growing up and they could not have faked it back then. I am simply curious who you really are... do tell please and speak the truth.
edit on 21-10-2010 by nonnez because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 21 2010 @ 07:22 PM
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reply to post by LordBucket
 


The beginning of the video is a set up for the end.
They start out that way so that they can set up the end.

I am searching for information regarding the half-life of residual cyanide outside the body.

This is why I wanted to start this thread.
If you can give me a link to substantiate what you assert regarding no cyanide being found after 50 years then I would very much appreciate it.
The reason that I say that is because the gentleman who performed the tests on the plaster from the walls did not mention that as a reason to refute his initial findings.
He states after the fact that the cyanide would only be located on the surface plaster and that by crushing the rock he diluted the samples.

I would recommend watching the video completely.



posted on Oct, 21 2010 @ 07:24 PM
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reply to post by nonnez
 


That is of no matter to this thread.

I am simply someone who saw an interesting video and I am inquiring of the minions of ATS to answer some of the questions regarding the video.

Do not be offended but I want to keep this thread on topic.

Thanks for the reply.



posted on Oct, 21 2010 @ 07:29 PM
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reply to post by LordBucket
 


The traces are still measurable till this day in the delousing chambers at the camps (the thing the gas was used for). And the walls are still blue.

Now why aren't the walls blue like in the supposed gas chambers? Seems if you were gassing jews nonstop this would most certainly happen.

My take, yes there were camps yes people died of disease but the gassing of jews was a total lie. Its a big business these days to keep it going though.


edit on 21-10-2010 by mayabong because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 21 2010 @ 07:31 PM
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reply to post by Josephus23
 


That information has EVERYTHING to do with keeping your conversation on topic and has EVERYTHING to do with my potential reply to your OP. Your demographics will let me know your initial position on the information you have presented for argument and discussion. I will know if your opinion on the matter comes from prejudice or simple statement of fact and further let me know that this is not a simple attempt of coercion of opinion. This, however, was the reply I had expected.
edit on 21-10-2010 by nonnez because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 21 2010 @ 07:35 PM
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reply to post by nonnez
 


Please you are very wrong and this post is very similar to Orwellian doublethink.



Your demographics will let me know your initial position on the information you have presented for argument and discussion.


Demographics do not hold positions in an argument. People of all races and beliefs can hold a position in an argument.
This thread will stay on topic.
If you could...
Please watch the movie and give me your opinion on the movie and the information contained in the movie.

Thanks for the reply.



posted on Oct, 21 2010 @ 07:43 PM
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reply to post by mayabong
 


It seems as though you are correct concerning the use of cyanide and delousing chambers but I cannot find the actual numbers regarding the half life of cyanide outside the body.

Here is an interesting link regarding cyanide exposure and the search for a biomarker for toxicity risks.

It would seem after reading this that an INCREDIBLE amount of hydrogen cyanide would have had to be used in these supposed gas chambers to kill the numbers of people that were reportedly murdered.

That was another argument that Leuchter made in the movie that I found interesting.
How difficult it is to kill another human.
He states that simply shooting them would be much more efficient and economical.



posted on Oct, 21 2010 @ 08:07 PM
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reply to post by Josephus23
 



I am searching for information regarding the half-life of residual cyanide outside the body.

I would venture a guess that it would vary highly depending on many factors: the material it was absorbed into, moisture, temperature, possibly other factors.



If you can give me a link to substantiate what you assert regarding no cyanide being found after 50 years then I would very much appreciate it.

I'm not asserting that. I'm simply providing it as one possible explanation for his statement that it would "be impossible to know if cyanide was on the walls." If it can't be expected to last that long, then testing for it and not finding it on the walls wouldn't mean anything. And simply speculating, without any direct knowledge of the chemistry involved...the idea that a gas would not be usefully detectable in walls after 50 years seems pretty plausible to me.



I would recommend watching the video completely.

Well, ok...but if it's not important enough to you to cite the relevant portion of the video in your own thread, there might be a lot of people unwilling to watch an hour and a half long video to find what might end up being two minutes that are relevant.



posted on Oct, 21 2010 @ 08:27 PM
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reply to post by LordBucket
 


The entire movie is of importance and not particular parts of it and that is why I posted it.

I was moved by the matter of fact attitude of Leuchter and his experience relative to what he was researching.

As for the cyanide I am still unable to find anything that states that it would or would not be found in the walls but the gentleman who performed the tests stated that it would be found on the surface plaster covering the walls.
Considering that he was not a fan of Leuchter after he discovered what the tests concerned I would take it to mean that cyanide would still be detectable after this period of time.

But the detectable amounts would only be on the plaster.

But as I said before I am kind of at a loss on why his tests stated that no cyanide was found in the rock but then when he actually had to testify he backtracked and stated that crushing the rock to find traces of cyanide would dilute the specimen being tested.
It would seem as though this would have been mentioned in the initial report if he was competent.
I found it funny that he basically debunked himself!!

Thanks for the reply.
edit on 10/21/2010 by Josephus23 because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 21 2010 @ 08:34 PM
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reply to post by mayabong
 



traces are still measurable till this day in the delousing chambers

If true, that would be relevant. Cite a source, please?

I was under the impression that it was the same chambers being discussed...but that one side believed the chambers were used to kill lice and one side believed they were used to kill jews. Either way, there would be gas in those chambers.

reply to post by Josephus23
 



cyanide would still be detectable after this period of time.


And would it be practical to know from those measurements whether the chambers were used for murder or merely delousing? I'm guessing probably not.

edit on 21-10-2010 by LordBucket because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 21 2010 @ 08:38 PM
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reply to post by Josephus23
 


I can not watch the whole movie, just curious of what led you to this and what was the attraction to watch the whole movie? I don't think this is off topic, because you may give a answer that will give others, like myself, the desire to watch the whole movie.



posted on Oct, 21 2010 @ 08:49 PM
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reply to post by LordBucket
 


Here is some wiki information on Zyklon B discussing this very issue




Holocaust deniers say that Zyklon B gas was not used in the gas chambers, relying as evidence on the low levels of Prussian blue residue in samples of the gas chambers found by Fred A. Leuchter, which Leuchter dismissed as the results of general delousing of buildings. Leuchter's negative control, a sample of gasket material taken from a different building in the camp, registered as having no such cyanide residue.[25] The manager of the analytical laboratory hired by Leuchter states in an interview in Errol Morris' film Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred A. Leuchter, Jr., that Leuchter's thick samples of brick would have greatly diluted the cyanide residue, which forms only an extremely fine layer on the walls and cannot penetrate. In 1994, the Institute for Forensic Research in Kraków re-examined this claim on the grounds that formation of Prussian blue by exposure of bricks to cyanide is not a highly probable reaction [26]. Using more sophisticated microdiffusion techniques, they tested 22 samples from the gas chambers, delousing chambers (as positive controls), and living quarters (as negative controls), finding cyanide residue in both the delousing chambers and the ruins of the gas chambers but none in the ruins of the living quarters


link to quote

Again what I don't see anyone noticing is that the gentleman who originally performed the tests did not state initially that the crushed rock would have diluted the samples.
When given the samples and asked to perform a test to see if the samples contained residual crystals of hydrogen cyanide, he reported no cyanide.
By calling into question his initial techniques for testing for cyanide
after the fact
He is calling into question his own competence for testing the material and his competence regarding anything surrounding this issue.

When he was simply given the material to test with no precepts about what he was testing he reported negative.

But yet when he was told what exactly was the purpose of the tests he debunked himself.

A good lawyer would have eaten him alive on the stand.



posted on Oct, 21 2010 @ 08:54 PM
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Fred Leuchter Jr. is a joke for the nazi holocaust deniers.

The methodology used for his cyanide analysis has been scientifically refuted.

His appraisal of what or what doesn't constitute a gas chamber, is based on his formal education as a BA in history, which hardly qualifies him as an engineer. If he was an engineer, he could have looked at the original blueprints for Auschwitz and would have also realized the gas chambers had been rebuilt after the nazies destroyed them.

He stole samples from the rebuilt part using a hammer and chisel for his "scientific" study.

He is just a piss poor reference if you are really serious about this.

You'll have quite a few nazi loving SOB's coming into this thread and restart the Jewish conspiracy line and hopefully a couple of really smart guys on the Holocaust will stop by and shoot this thread down fairly quick.



posted on Oct, 21 2010 @ 08:55 PM
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here's a few sites that may have pertinent info:

www.cephas-library.com...

www.wintersonnenwende.com...

opinions and more info?????

p.s. I'm neutral on this.
I have heard stories from genuine camp survivors.....
most say the mass deaths were from diseases.
edit on 21-10-2010 by xuenchen because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 21 2010 @ 08:56 PM
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reply to post by amc621
 


I found the name of the movie interesting to be honest with you.

When I was searching through a documentary database the name "Dr Death" caught my attention and the description was about someone who specialized in executions and so I was intrigued.
I suppose it's a bit like faces of death.

I didn't know that it had anything to do with Auschwitz. That is why I liked the movie. That angle came out of nowhere and I really felt empathy for the man.
He seems very genuine and matter of fact and he was merely stating his opinion based upon his experience in executions.

And I wholly agree with him concerning the Ernst Zundel trial.
It is a farce in my opinion that anyone could be tried and convicted for expressing their views about any issue.

Thank you for posting.



posted on Oct, 21 2010 @ 08:59 PM
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reply to post by LordBucket
 





And would it be practical to know from those measurements whether the chambers were used for murder or merely delousing? I'm guessing probably not.


Could you elaborate on this?

I do not see how it is applied to the premise of the thread.




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