Auschwitz Gas Chambers a Myth?

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


The simple question, as always with this particular subject, is this - why is it an issue for people?

Anyone who has researched this subject in any detail whatsoever surely knows the history of the Nazis, the details of their anti-semitic law making and victimisation of jewish people.

They are also more than aware of the testimony of the people who liberated the camps and saw what was there, took photographs of what they found and also of the records kept by the Nazi's themselves and the actual witness and survivor testimonies.

And yet...they decide that all that documented history is false.

Why?

reply to post by wcitizen


Ok Understand the confusion

I am not disagreeing with you about anything in particular
I was ranting on my soap box at the time
and I was being figuratively agreeing
you know
when you smile and agree with her
and you have no idea what she is talking about
nor do you care
(that sounded rude and that I was not not caring)
wait i minute
we'll lets just go with that


you now what
I don't have single idea why my
double took over
i like my soap box

CONFUCIOUS SAY that it would be economically disastrous to systematically conduct mass genocide against a wealth of willing slave labor
It may happen in a week or it may happen in 20 years but the truth will be known

The camps that existed were the exact same as the camps built by as far back as the Greeks Romans Egyptian Persians Babylonians United States North Vietnam South Vietnam Cuba Pakistan India China

shall i continue

this is all propaganda that is being used to push an agenda
the holocaust did not at all happen like as the way are told

the only question is really
why

I really want an empathetic answer to this question and not "talking points"
These are human lives DYING IN GAZA RIGHT NOW
families are having their homes bulldozed and are DYING


someone tell me why it is that this incident whose exact nature is dubious at best (the holocaust) is worst than any other of the countless number of human atrocities
Hiroshima
Nagasaki
Abu Ghraib

why the needless suffering

why
seriously WHY
why the accumulation of wealth that is so concentrated that millions upon millions of people die pointlessly

do you top 1%

THE ELITES
Do you really need ALL that wealth

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


You do realize that the number of six millions came in a report to Himmler made by Adolf Eichmann? Of course you do.

Are you familiar with the The Korherr Report?

www.deathcamps.org...

While 'Krema I' was partially reconstructed, there is a photograph of it before it was converted to a bomb shelter, and also pictures of other crematoriums in Auschwitz, thus refuting Cole's (Detached chimney) and other deniers “research”. You do know that don't you?

www.deathcamps.org...

How many died at Auschwitz
www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...

You also have testimonies made by surviving Sonderkommando, Dr Menngele's assistant, Kurt Gerstein, Forensic evidence, captured SS members, Hermann Goering testimony, Rudolf Hoess, einsatzgruppen reports and TONS of documents captured by allied forces, used in the Nuremberg trials.
www.ushmm.org...

Of course you know all of these.

Originally posted by Josephus23
reply to post by wcitizen

 

The camps that existed were the exact same as the camps built by as far back as the Greeks Romans Egyptian Persians Babylonians United States North Vietnam South Vietnam Cuba Pakistan India China

shall i continue

Please do, it's so hilarious, I need a good laugh.

These are human lives DYING IN GAZA RIGHT NOW
families are having their homes bulldozed and are DYING

Right now ? Right now there are no Israelis in Gaza strip. In fact, it withdrawal it forces and destroyed Israeli settlements in 2005.

So much for “RIGHT NOW”.

Nice spin to your own thread BTW. Bravo.

Originally posted by neformore
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

The simple question, as always with this particular subject, is this - why is it an issue for people?

Anyone who has researched this subject in any detail whatsoever surely knows the history of the Nazis, the details of their anti-semitic law making and victimisation of jewish people.

They are also more than aware of the testimony of the people who liberated the camps and saw what was there, took photographs of what they found and also of the records kept by the Nazi's themselves and the actual witness and survivor testimonies.

And yet...they decide that all that documented history is false.

Why?

It's not that all the documented evidence is false, but a lot of evidence that is alleged to be documented is in fact not documented at all. Some of the evidence that has been documented has been proven to be false, for instance soap made out of human body fat, and lamp shades out of human skin turned out to be deliberate fabrications.

Why because additional annalysis of the evidence concluded that what in some cases were hasty conclusions and in other cases politically inspired conclusions were false conclusions.

Why do people like to have the real facts and deny ignorance through that process?

That varies from person to person, me I just like to know things, and anyone who follows my posting history on ATS knows I post on a very wide array of topics and bring a better than fair portion of knowledge to each one that I do.

When we begin to decide what people can discuss based on what we want to presume and imagine their motivations to be, we infringe on free speech, thought and expression.

That is precisely what the Nazis did in many ways and it would seem to me that even those who cling to some of the events that have been proven false, and still insist that they are true are really no better than the very regime and type of thinking they are decrying.

In fact if there was nothing to hide, and everything was documented as people often falsely alledge and conclude then there would be no reason to question or frown upon people looking into these matters.

Never forget, should not mean never forget the version of history we want you to accept, and never question that through study.

Scholars are still pouring over mounds of documented evidence that were in many cases made unavailable because each of the Four Victorious Powers of Russia, England, France, and the United States had them decentralized in different military zones within Germany that they ran up until 1990.

So some would argue and be correct in stating that a true research based on all the pertinent facts could not have begun until 1990 for that very reason. The Nazi Regime lasted a little over 15 years, so reviewing 15 years of records of a complex and ambitious war machine is not something that is going to take any less time.

Finally when it comes to what people saw at the conclusion of the war, those conditions at that point weren't typical of the same conditions during the war, the early parts of the war, and the runup to the war, when Germany was not starving for fuel, food, medicine and other things deprived to them as part of the strategy of winning the war. Depriving them to the German War Machine also meant depriving them to detainees in the concentration camps.

Personally I find it dubious that people would question why people want to know about one of the most tumultuous and pivotal events of the 20th Century and one that gave rise to todays political aliances and today's military industrial complex.

I know moderators are members and posters too and each entitled to their opinion, but honestly I do find it a bit scandalous that you have real issues with members discussing this topic and questioning why they do.

Intrepid for instance who is passionate about Middle East affairs and discussing them honestly which at times involves heavy criticism of the Israeli State and various Western Governments and Christian and Jewish Fundamentals eventually stepped down as a Moderator so he wouldn't have to refute and answer charges of anti-Semitism that many critics levelled against him.

You might want to consider relinquishing your position as a moderator so you can more fully pusue this issue which is obviously very important to you without compromising the Administration by questioning why people want to talk about this important issue.

Personally I don't really care why you are so passionate about the issue or why you don't want people to talk about it, because I only care about knowing as many of the salient and pertinent facts about the world we live in, it's true nature and it's true history.

The events is what I am interested in, not people's emotional limitations or personal politics or motivations.

None of which were in play regarding those presently engaged in such high drama when these events occured.

Originally posted by Josephus23
reply to post by wcitizen

 

Hiroshima
Nagasaki
Abu Ghraib

You use historical events to question a historical event.

Thats called hypocrisy.

If you don't believe one, then surely - using your own standards - the others are fiction as well.

Your argument is devoid of reason.

The simple fact of the matter is this - you have a self admitted grudge against the actions of the Israeli government and are are so desperate to try and stick it to jewish people in any way possible that you seek to refute an atrocity in order to do so.

Incidentally, your decision to deny one event paves the way for other people to deny what is happening in Gaza, using the same methods you employ.

There are those who will tell you that nothing is happening in Gaza. That it is the Palestians fault. That they started it. That they live in good condtions and use propaganda to aid their cause. That the actions of the Israelis is for security. That no one is dying of starvation, that there are no ghettos, that the segregation is for the good of the country because the palestinians are all terrorists who want to kill jewish people and bring down jewish society.

Sound familiar?

Its two sides of the same coin. Born out of ignorance.

And its pitiful.

Holocaust deniers sicken me. The fact that this board allows them a platform to spew their hatred and vitriol calls into question my continued participation. The fact that more people do not call them out is a depressing comment on the current state of affairs with regards to the membership in general.

Neformore hit it right on the head.............it's all about motivation.

Originally posted by neformore
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

The simple question, as always with this particular subject, is this - why is it an issue for people?

Anyone who has researched this subject in any detail whatsoever surely knows the history of the Nazis, the details of their anti-semitic law making and victimisation of jewish people.

They are also more than aware of the testimony of the people who liberated the camps and saw what was there, took photographs of what they found and also of the records kept by the Nazi's themselves and the actual witness and survivor testimonies.

And yet...they decide that all that documented history is false.

Why?

Wrong, they are not saying all the documented history is false. That is like if you said you have some doubts about the official story of September 11, and I were to respond back to you with indignation as to why you are declaring all the documented history to be false.

www.holocaustdenialvideos.com

watch the videos on here, then get back to me and try to tell me that the author is denying historical documents. In fact, he uses their own sources to make the claims. I could also point out that the historically documented fact is that Auschwitz REVISED their numbers from 4 million to 1 million, that is the only holocaust revisionism going on.

Originally posted by Pyros
Holocaust deniers sicken me. The fact that this board allows them a platform to spew their hatred and vitriol calls into question my continued participation. The fact that more people do not call them out is a depressing comment on the current state of affairs with regards to the membership in general.

Neformore hit it right on the head.............it's all about motivation.

I couldn't agree more, people who deny genocide are really disgusting people, like the people who deny the genocide of the palestinian people. They should really be called out for their beliefs

It is all about motivation, the motivation for truth

reply to post by gravitational

You do realize that the number of six millions came in a report to Himmler made by Adolf Eichmann? Of course you do.

I do realize that those reports could have been deliberate misrepresentations by the authors or out and out frauds for political purposes.

Documents are forged all the time, one look at the current mortgage crisis would tell you that.

What happened in the immediate aftermath of the War as various major players jockeyed for deals or posterity is something not well documented.

The fact that the authors of some of these 'reports' were swiftly executed certainly precludes dead men from telling any different tales.

Some of the political intriques like Rudolph Hess being held in virtual solitary confinement the rest of his life in Spandau prison despite being held in England during most of the war and while most of the War Crimes occured suggest that certain people new politically inconvenient truths.

The fact that some records are still sealed to this day and cannot be viewed suggests that there is much more to the overall story.

Today the science of forensics is much more sophisticated than it was in the 1940's and the ability to authenticate things, and annalyse things at a much more capable state than the militaries and government agents that in many cases hastily annalysed these things at the conclusion of the war, in many cases using those conclusions as political justification for formulating aliances and policies moving forward.

Fifty years from now we will likely be able to know even more once the people who have long been interfering in the study and debate on these things have long faded from the picture and time eliminates the often rediculous emotional appeals and outbursts brought into this debate.

If our criminal justice system reached the same kind of conclusions based purely on emotion then most innocent people would be punished because the facts would never be uncovered, just the outrage of an offense having occured would be sufficient alone to demand someone, anyone be punished.

I reject the emotional ploys, and reserve the right to investigate the authenticity and veracity of things, at the end of the day, most of your arguments are going to rely on taking the word of one or two investigators that may or may not have seen the documents they are writing about, and may or may not have understood them, and may or may not have had all the available information regarding them, and may or may not have understood the true context in which they were originally created, and in many cases may or may not be academics further writing about what other academics purport to have seen or uncovered, and haven't seen these things for themselves at all.

The college student who did his thesis on Jews in the German Army had every academic road block thrown in his way by professors and staff not just at his own university but the tightly knit academic community that comprises the bulk of who writes and publishes on this matter.

He eventually went to Germany and through doggedly tracking down survivors was able to doccument in great detail something the academics all swore was just a annomily and not worth the time or effort to investigate.

Even once he proved his case, that same academic community began to question his motives levelling charges of anti-semitism and shoddy conclusions even though he could back up all his actual research with real war time documents and real survivor accounts.

That's the nature of holocaust study, it is an industry, dominated by a very tight knit group of people in lock step, that largely just write and expound on one and other's accepted works without ever doing one iota of fresh research with the actual documents, places and survivors.

I can certainly appreciate why people question the official story based on not just how the official story is being manufactured but who is mainly manufacturing it, and the tactics that they employ to justify those things and validate their conclusions.

Which is why people who really do care, need to reject the emotion, and the ploys and the pressure, and investigate these things fully themselves, and part of that investigation sadly does involve having to deal with many angry and beligerent people, who don't want people studying and questioning these things, and having to deal with a community that's turned itself into an industry on the Holocaust that doesn't want it's hastily drawn largely politically inspired findings questioned, because many of them are based on deliberate and purposeful frauds, heresay, and politicized statements and findings.

Thanks.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
I know moderators are members and posters too and each entitled to their opinion, but honestly I do find it a bit scandalous that you have real issues with members discussing this topic and questioning why they do.

If you mean I engage in a discussion, present facts and give opinions, then yes - I do that.

I find it scandalous that someone who is, apparently intelligent and well versed in many topics suddenly feels the need to try and stifle a discussion and opinion, solely based on them being a moderator.

You might want to consider relinquishing your position as a moderator so you can more fully pusue this issue which is obviously very important to you without compromising the Administration by questioning why people want to talk about this important issue.

How, I wonder, do I compromise the board administration by talking about a subject I am passionate about?

Surely ATS is all about people being passionate about topics? This is a discussion board, where people talk and provide opinions. I do not - ever - moderate topics I am involved in - in fact board staff are prohibited from moderating threads they express personal opinions in - a fact I am fairly sure you are aware of given your time on the boards.

If - as you imply - I should not be talking about subjects I am passionate about - then why do you post on the board about subjects you yourself are passionate about? Should ATS remove its Subject Matter Experts because they are knowledgeable and passionate about the topics they researched deeply? What then would be the future of ATS? How can anyone deny ignorance when the spark that ignites the passion to debate and educate is gone?

Personally I don't really care why you are so passionate about the issue or why you don't want people to talk about it, because I only care about knowing as many of the salient and pertinent facts about the world we live in, it's true nature and it's true history.

You claim not to care, but you decided to raise the issue?

The events is what I am interested in, not people's emotional limitations or personal politics or motivations.

None of which were in play regarding those presently engaged in such high drama when these events occured.

If you are interested in the events, then you are aware of the historical documentation surrounding them, and the fact that those documents have been compiled and studied practically every year since they were gathered, over a period of what is now 65 years since WW2 ended, by thousands of scientists, historians and researchers. You are aware of the survivors, of the witnesses, of the testimony of those who liberated the camps and saw what was there. How strange then, that you question them when there are no political or personal motives in those things, only documented facts, in the same manner as other historical facts have been assembled through history. Are you implying that - in fact - all roads don't lead to rome in this case, as history is a lie? If so, where does that leave you?

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Personally I find it dubious that people would question why people want to know about one of the most tumultuous and pivotal events of the 20th Century and one that gave rise to todays political aliances and today's military industrial complex.

Many of us find it dubious that people are so dead set on debating the existence of something so well documented, something admitted to by those involved.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler

I know moderators are members and posters too and each entitled to their opinion, but honestly I do find it a bit scandalous that you have real issues with members discussing this topic and questioning why they do.

Every staff member on this site was a member long before they became staff. These staff members would still debate these points, whether they be moderators, super moderators, admin or owners. The fact that a staff member finds the topic interesting shouldn't matter.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Intrepid for instance who is passionate about Middle East affairs and discussing them honestly which at times involves heavy criticism of the Israeli State and various Western Governments and Christian and Jewish Fundamentals eventually stepped down as a Moderator so he wouldn't have to refute and answer charges of anti-Semitism that many critics levelled against him.

This is outright nonsense. Making something up like this, at the exepense of another member is a very serious issue. Your accusation is blatantly false. Take it from me, a jew, Intrepid stepped down, and was reinstated, for reasons of his own and, more important, he's never once shown any signs of anti-semitism or anti-anything. I'm fairly sure it would have come up in conversation at some point or other. My being jewish never once seemed to be an issue in any of my dealings with him. Before we became staff, after we became staff or now.


I'd really watch where you're going when you start singling out members and making up outright lies about them. More so since he's still active on the boards as a member and a moderator.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
You might want to consider relinquishing your position as a moderator so you can more fully pusue this issue which is obviously very important to you without compromising the Administration by questioning why people want to talk about this important issue.

The motive behind holocaust denial or revisionism is valid topic. There's almost always a motive behind it. Suggesting that a moderator step down to discuss something such as this is ridiculous.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Intrepid for instance who is passionate about Middle East affairs and discussing them honestly which at times involves heavy criticism of the Israeli State and various Western Governments and Christian and Jewish Fundamentals eventually stepped down as a Moderator so he wouldn't have to refute and answer charges of anti-Semitism that many critics levelled against him.

Your comments here are both rude and grossly inaccurate. Given your involvement with ATS, one would expect that jumping to (errant) conclusions would not be part of your methodology. Apologies will be expected.

You might want to consider relinquishing your position as a moderator so you can more fully pusue this issue which is obviously very important to you without compromising the Administration by questioning why people want to talk about this important issue.

See above.

Also see: Moderators Are People Too. (and they have opinions)

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Intrepid for instance who is passionate about Middle East affairs and discussing them honestly which at times involves heavy criticism of the Israeli State and various Western Governments and Christian and Jewish Fundamentals eventually stepped down as a Moderator so he wouldn't have to refute and answer charges of anti-Semitism that many critics levelled against him.

Your comments here are both rude and grossly inaccurate. Given your involvement with ATS, one would expect that jumping to (errant) conclusions would not be part of your methodology. Apologies will be expected.

You might want to consider relinquishing your position as a moderator so you can more fully pusue this issue which is obviously very important to you without compromising the Administration by questioning why people want to talk about this important issue.

See above.

Also see: Moderators Are People Too. (and they have opinions)

I am not entirely sure they are errant conclusions but are simply my own observations and speculative assessment.

For those that find that offensive I do apologize, most of all to Intrepid if this is not the case, I absolutely have no problem admitting that I am wrong, when in fact and if in fact I am.

Further I did readily concede the all moderators are members first and entitled to their opinions, but when it comes to methodology, questioning as to why someone is interested in a subject, certainly wouldn’t make the facts of that subject any different, unless they were originally involved in the conspiracy.

I am not old enough to have participated in World War II, so my motives for being interested in history have absolutely nothing to do with what may or may not have transpired in history.

It would seem to me with all due respect if someone if someone’s methodology is to deflect away from the topic by wanting to know why someone is interested in the topic we then are attacking the poster instead of the topic.

I do feel a legitimate need to question that most especially when that additional status as a moderator denotes a certain level of admiration and respect.

So in all honesty I am not seeing where my methodology is any different than that used in the post that led me to question the poster.

So at best I can offer a qualified apology when it comes to questioning the poster on the wisdom of making such a summary argument as to question wholesale why anyone would be interested in discussing this topic or challenging some of the popular held beliefs and conclusions regarding it.

I will however fully apologize without reservation or qualification as far as bringing Intrepid into the discussion and will write him right away offering a full apology for this.

If the staff feels it appropriate to edit that portion of my post, or issue a warning or other remedy they feel appropriate I certainly respect the Administrations discretional decisions in how to best run the site.

I would ask though that everyone consider that questioning why someone is interested in subject, adds nothing of substance or quality to a discussion, as it’s really just the underlying facts of the events and the subject that are relevant to what happened and understanding it.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
I would ask though that everyone consider that questioning why someone is interested in subject, adds nothing of substance or quality to a discussion, as it’s really just the underlying facts of the events and the subject that are relevant to what happened and understanding it.

On the contrary, when it comes to holocaust revisionism and denial, the motive behind the denial or revisionism is essential. Understanding the reason why someone would try and persuade someone to disregard the mountains of evidence, the thousands upon thousands of eyewtiness and victim testimony, the photographs, video footage etc is as important, if not more than, the revisionist discussion itself.

You see, if we sit by and idly watch as folks push to minimize the events of the holocaust, we run the risk of having to experience it again.

I can't help but question the motives of holocaust deniers and revisionists because they are so determined to ignore and mis-represent solid evidence that proves beyond doubt that the Nazi's operated death camps and murdered 6,000,000 innocent people.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

You might want to consider relinquishing your position as a moderator so you can more fully pusue this issue which is obviously very important to you without compromising the Administration by questioning why people want to talk about this important issue. Personally I don't really care why you are so passionate about the issue or why you don't want people to talk about it

I'm not sure where you get he doesn't want people to talk about this topic, nor how he is compromsing the administration, just because he presents a great debate on the stupidity of the holocaust denier movement, doesn't mean he is single handedly trying to stifle discussion and stop you from a opinion. You are trying to throw in the old 'mods are just the bad guys' mentality here to deflect from being pwned, This is just tantruming.
Don't respond with false projections, it depreciates your significant contributions to ATS so far for other members like myself.

reply to post by Crakeur

Many of us find it dubious that people are so dead set on debating the existence of something so well documented, something admitted to by those involved.

And that's a opinion based merely on suspicion. Some would argue that simply because something is 'well' documented doesn't mean that documentation accurately reflects events. This is the case in many popular discussions on this board including UFOs and 9-11. Credible historians still are discovering discrepencies and innacuracies and publishing them all the time, including those who are widely respected by the academic community.

Every staff member on this site was a member long before they became staff. These staff members would still debate these points, whether they be moderators, super moderators, admin or owners. The fact that a staff member finds the topic interesting shouldn't matter.

I normally agree, and I think we both know how many times I have publicly supported the Administration, the Moderators and it's positions.

I interpreted the remarks to mean that no one should be discussing this topic in a questioning way, with an eye to conspiracies or details. This to me seems contrary to the very purpose of the site.

This is outright nonsense. Making something up like this, at the exepense of another member is a very serious issue. Your accusation is blatantly false. Take it from me, a jew, Intrepid stepped down, and was reinstated, for reasons of his own and, more important, he's never once shown any signs of anti-semitism or anti-anything. I'm fairly sure it would have come up in conversation at some point or other. My being jewish never once seemed to be an issue in any of my dealings with him. Before we became staff, after we became staff or now.

I appologize for this statement, yet I also am someone who defended Intrepid in some board forums where members were levelling that accusation against him.

So no I don't think for a minute Intrepid is actually anti-semetic, nor was I stating he is. I foolishly speculated that he stepped down to avoid the drama of those accusations so he could focus on simply debating without having to consider how his postions might reflect on the Site since he is a member of the staff.

Foolish and speculative being the key words there which I readily concede.

However since the actual details were never divulged I think it possible to understand how that can lead to speculation.

I'd really watch where you're going when you start singling out members and making up outright lies about them. More so since he's still active on the boards as a member and a moderator.

I will appologize directly to Intrepid but speculation in and of itself is not a willful or deliberate lie, I should have not made the comment or at the very least to preface it better to make it clear it was speculative.

But I do get the point.

The motive behind holocaust denial or revisionism is valid topic. There's almost always a motive behind it. Suggesting that a moderator step down to discuss something such as this is ridiculous.

I object to both the phrase and the word as being a ploy by something that has obviously become institutionalized by evidence that words have been coined with deliberate and politically motivated and assumptive connotations attached to them.

I myself question the need for coining words that are clearly meant to draw blanket conclusions and cast aspersions on the people those words are being used to describe in that manner.

I some how manage to question every other aspect of history without having to deal with these kinds of 'buzz words' and accusations and I seriously question why they are employed in this aspect of history.

I have been my entire life a person who especially questions things others say or demand should not be questioned and I have typically found out that it was wise to question them for that very reason.

Thanks.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
I am not entirely sure they are errant conclusions but are simply my own observations and speculative assessment.

Then it has become clear your observational skills and speculative abilities have become severely lacking. And in case you have noticed, your misinformed jump to a ludicrous conclusion did indeed piss me off.

If you're able to engage in such a gross and misinformed error about a long-standing and trusted member of the ATS staff, how are we (members) to treat your other observations and speculations?

unless they were originally involved in the conspiracy.

Is this more misinformed speculation?

so my motives for being interested in history have absolutely nothing to do with what may or may not have transpired in history.

So... you motives have nothing to do with fact, and instead are focused on fictions? I don't understand, how can one not be concerned with the facts that have transpired in history?

I do feel a legitimate need to question that most especially when that additional status as a moderator denotes a certain level of admiration and respect.

No such overt emphasis on staff -- when posting their opinions as contributing member -- has ever been presented on this site in any way, shape, or form. Your assumptions of elevated status as a staff member equating to increased admiration -- when posting their opinions as contributing members -- is your own.



[quote[I would ask though that everyone consider that questioning why someone is interested in subject, adds nothing of substance or quality to a discussion, as it’s really just the underlying facts of the events and the subject that are relevant to what happened and understanding it.

I'm not sure there can ever be a "quality discussion" focused around the denial of historic facts.


DISCLAIMER (just so you're not confused, these are my personal opinions and are not due any additional admiration beyond me, as a member, posting such opinions): I don't disagree that the historical record is rife with errors, omissions, exaggerations, and fabrications. And likewise, the accounts of Nazis atrocities may be subject to particular emphasis and/or sensationalism but those tasked with authoring the historical record. However, no rational person with the ability to analyze the overwhelming number of accounts, evidence, and corroboration can deny the holocaust and well-documented aspects such as the death chambers at the camps.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
I have been my entire life a person who especially questions things others say or demand should not be questioned and I have typically found out that it was wise to question them for that very reason.

And yet, you have chastised me for doing exactly that, and - in this case - it is you who is saying I should not be questioning things.

Motive is a key part of holocaust denial. As is circular logic.