Why does God allow the existance of people who go to hell?

reply to post by adjensen

Sorry, but I find it very hard to believe that God (who you apparently believe in) would allow his followers to mistakenly follow the wrong path for thousands of years

Which is exactly what they have been doing. The original Christianity bears no resemblance to the modern day travesty that has been warped bent and manipulated by the leaders of the Church for their own nefarious ends to control the populace and keep them in place.

Go read about the Gnostics before you pontificate about the veracity of your religion.

Read about the persecutions of Christians not by others but BY THE CHURCH.

What kind of twisted religion persecutes its followers and others in the name of a loving God? God, by what ever name you refer to him, in the Abrahamic religions and in Islam is a jealous God by the admission of your own religion. That is not a God of love.

Originally posted by PuterMan

Originally posted by adjensen
and if you do not accept his gift, you will not receive the saving covenant of God.

No problem with that but you seem to be skirting the issue. YOU can believe that, but you have no right or authority to apply that to anyone who does not believe your particular version of religion. Tell me why is it that you seem to be unable to understand that?

You seem to be implying that I am judging those who don't follow my belief. I'm not doing that, I'm merely pointing out the nature of Christian doctrine on the relationship of us, God and Christ. I need no "authority or right" to do that, because whether you believe it or not has no bearing on what it is.

In both cases, though, the lack of belief in Christ's divinity makes them pointless for defending the core tenets of Christianity, exactly as I wrote.

Wrong. Before you can defend the core of Christianity you have to establish the validity of the religion. You cannot do that without reference to it's foundations and supporting literature.

Okay, "pointless" may have been a poor choice of words, but I stand by my belief that one can't defend Christ by solely using a theology that refutes him.

You also cannot defend the tenets of your faith without access to not only the current literature, but also to additional writings that as you are well aware, or should be, were omitted on purpose by numerous leaders of the Church leading up to and including the Council of Nicea and even subsequent to that because they did not suit their purpose and served to lessen the control of the Church upon it's followers.

I am well aware of Gnosticism, have read a bit of it, and have rejected it as not relevant to my faith. I don't believe that God's plan was to show up, do some stuff, make his exit, and then leave things go and hope it all works out. I do believe that the Holy Spirit exists to help the Church and Christians in general stay on God's path. So, while you see the dismissal of the mystical aspects of early church writings as "control", I see it as the reasonable refutation of non-canonical thinking.

Logically, as I said in another post, I find it highly unlikely that God would allow things to drift along, totally against his will, for thousands of years, particularly when he said that he wouldn't do that, by means of the Holy Spirit.

Why is it that you are not capable of understanding that YOUR religion applies only to YOU and not to those who do not follow your religion.

If you are saying that once we meet God, we're judged according to our beliefs, regardless of what they happen to be, good luck with that. I've never seen anything that says that God changes his standards to conform with what we wanted to do.

If Christianity is right (and I obviously believe that it is, or I wouldn't follow it,) then my religion DOES apply to those who do not follow it. Why on Earth would it not? That doesn't mean that I'm judging or demeaning others who don't follow my faith, it's just a statement of fact. As I've said before, if you can reconcile yourself to God via a means other than Christ, you're welcome to do so.

Originally posted by adjensen
You seem to be implying that I am judging those who don't follow my belief. I'm not doing that, I'm merely pointing out the nature of Christian doctrine on the relationship of us, God and Christ.

No you are judging. Let me remind you of your original post:

I've always questioned why God, who is omni-present, allows the existence of people who will never make the decision to become "saved", and will go to hell.. According to the Bible, we all make our own decisions, and we are responsible for those decisions. But, if God KNOWS our decisions will place us in hell, then why would he allow us to come into existence? How can God "love us all" if God knows we are destined for hell?

That in my opinion is a judgement.

I need no "authority or right" to do that, because whether you believe it or not has no bearing on what it is.

It does because you cannot apply it to me as I do not follow your belief system and therefore as I said to do not have the right to impose your beliefs upon my life. You belief what you are saying applies and I do not. You seem to be having a real problem in understanding this.

Okay, "pointless" may have been a poor choice of words, but I stand by my belief that one can't defend Christ by solely using a theology that refutes him.

I agree with you on that.

I am well aware of Gnosticism, have read a bit of it, and have rejected it as not relevant to my faith.

It is very relevant since it is what your faith grew out of.

If you are saying that once we meet God, we're judged according to our beliefs......

If Christianity is right (and I obviously believe that it is, or I wouldn't follow it,) then my religion DOES apply to those who do not follow it. Why on Earth would it not?

Is it so difficult to understand? For what you said in the above paragraphs to have any validity at all to others they have to believe in your faith. They have to believe in God for a start otherwise they do not believe that God will judge them.

Your religious does NOT apply to those who do not follow it because for them it is wrong. YOU believe it applies, and you are entitled to do that, but in reality it does NOT because for the non-believer in your religion your beliefs are not real.

That doesn't mean that I'm judging or demeaning others who don't follow my faith, it's just a statement of fact. As I've said before, if you can reconcile yourself to God via a means other than Christ, you're welcome to do so.

Yes you are judging and demeaning others because you are saying that only your belief system is correct and therefore those who do not believe in it will go to hell whether they believe that or not.

Can you not see the double standards you are applying here.

I can turn to you and say that I believe that since you are not a Viking and have no believe in Wodin you will be cast into the fires of the underworld for eternity. You say but I am a Christian, and ny religion is the only true religion. I say, no you are wrong. The Worship of Wodin is the only true religion and the gateway to Valhalla and the fact that you don't believe it is not relevant because it is the truth.

That is not different to the position you are taking, yet it is patently obvious that it is wrong to impose a belief in Wodin on you.

[edit on 5/7/2010 by PuterMan]

Originally posted by PuterMan
reply to post by adjensen

 

Sorry, but I find it very hard to believe that God (who you apparently believe in) would allow his followers to mistakenly follow the wrong path for thousands of years

Which is exactly what they have been doing. The original Christianity bears no resemblance to the modern day travesty that has been warped bent and manipulated by the leaders of the Church for their own nefarious ends to control the populace and keep them in place.

Go read about the Gnostics before you pontificate about the veracity of your religion.

Read about the persecutions of Christians not by others but BY THE CHURCH.

What kind of twisted religion persecutes its followers and others in the name of a loving God? God, by what ever name you refer to him, in the Abrahamic religions and in Islam is a jealous God by the admission of your own religion. That is not a God of love.

Well, you've certainly got the anger thing down

I have always separated my spirituality by three things, faith (my personal belief), religion (the traditions, scripture and community that bolster my faith) and theology (the intellectual study of what I believe.) They are in order of increasing importance -- faith is more important than religion, which is more important than theology.

When I come across something that impacts one of those three aspects, I measure it against the other two. When my wife died, for example, my faith was shaken, but the community of my church supported me, and both scripture and my theology gave me reassurance that she was in a good place.

If someone was to come to me with a notion that, oh, let's say, "we should kill all executioners, because they're murderers and God says we should punish them!" I would look to these three aspects of my spirituality to see if it was in keeping with my beliefs.

Bad acts by Christians, who believe that they are working for God, both in the past, and ongoing, are the result, I think, of either failing to do this, or by adopting a faith, religion or theology that is out of step with what Christ taught.

If you want to say that the whole of the Bible is wrong, and that Christ taught something entirely different, and that God cares so little for us that he has allowed his sacrifice and work to be utterly corrupted so as to be useless, well, that's something that there's no argument against, because it all comes down to faith.

I believe what I believe, you believe what you believe, and we'll all get it sorted in the end.

Originally posted by Maddogkull
See again, its stupid. You go to hell because you do not believe in christ, even if you are good through your life. In that case I might be become a terrorrist and believe in chirst, and I will still go to heaven. That argument is illogical and stupid. How can someone not see through that?

this is a great thread
God created man for His pleasure. To worship Him out of free will.
Can man be "saved" without Christ? Great question!
If some tribesman in Africa 1000 years ago looks at the world around or the stars and realizes that inner voice of right and wrong put in him, and follows it God may look at him different then ...say someone on ATS who hears of God and down-right rejects Him, and would rather curse God to His face then to worship Him.
Hell is hell because it is just what people want... total separation from God!
I read so many posts on ATS and people say they want nothing to do with God.
God was taken out of schools, politics, town centers and on and on...
People want nothing and no one to answer to but themselves.
God is giving people what they want...
Many ask if "being good" counts.. being good compared to what standards?
No man can be good enough because God sets the standards and mankind falls short.
If mankind is going to be found "right with God" it is only if we accept Jesus as our Savior and God then sees us through what the Christ did on the cross.
So God sees not us but His Son when He looks at us.
Everything we do is just a half hearted attempt to please God.

The question is "Why do people reject God and His Son, when they hear about Him"? And then choose to go to hell?

Hell is very simply, eternal separation from God and all that comes from God, i.e. everything good. If you make the choice here on earth that you don't want God part of your life then that choice continues into eternity. I don't see anything that God is doing besides giving everyone a choice, as other posters have said free will. That said he has also given you an eternal soul, a blessing to those who chose to follow him and a curse to the remainder who choose otherwise. From a humanistic perspective arguably it would be more humane to destroy the souls of those who choose not to obey rather than put them through the torment of being separated from all that is good, problem is then the soul would not be eternal. And for those posters who refuse to believe, that is also a choice.

Originally posted by PuterMan

Originally posted by adjensen
You seem to be implying that I am judging those who don't follow my belief. I'm not doing that, I'm merely pointing out the nature of Christian doctrine on the relationship of us, God and Christ.

No you are judging. Let me remind you of your original post:

I've always questioned why God, who is omni-present, allows the existence of people who will never make the decision to become "saved", and will go to hell.. According to the Bible, we all make our own decisions, and we are responsible for those decisions. But, if God KNOWS our decisions will place us in hell, then why would he allow us to come into existence? How can God "love us all" if God knows we are destined for hell?

That in my opinion is a judgement.

I didn't write that! Go look at the first post in this thread.

I need no "authority or right" to do that, because whether you believe it or not has no bearing on what it is.

It does because you cannot apply it to me as I do not follow your belief system and therefore as I said to do not have the right to impose your beliefs upon my life. You belief what you are saying applies and I do not. You seem to be having a real problem in understanding this.

... snip ...

Yes you are judging and demeaning others because you are saying that only your belief system is correct and therefore those who do not believe in it will go to hell whether they believe that or not.

Can you not see the double standards you are applying here.

I can turn to you and say that I believe that since you are not a Viking and have no believe in Wodin you will be cast into the fires of the underworld for eternity. You say but I am a Christian, and ny religion is the only true religion. I say, no you are wrong. The Worship of Wodin is the only true religion and the gateway to Valhalla and the fact that you don't believe it is not relevant because it is the truth.

That is not different to the position you are taking, yet it is patently obvious that it is wrong to impose a belief in Wodin on you.

I am NOT imposing a belief on you. You are free to believe whatever you want. How is saying that I believe in Christianity forcing something on you? Do I need to abandon my faith so that you can feel comfortable in yours?

You ignored one point that I made in that post... is it your position that God will judge you based on what you believe? That if you've been a good Viking (lots of raping and pillaging and fighting) that you're good to go? Or if your faith said that deflowering virgins was the way to get into heaven, that would be fine by God?

Originally posted by ccsct203
The question is "Why do people reject God and His Son, when they hear about Him"? And then choose to go to hell?

If you haven't read it, The Great Divorce, by C.S. Lewis does a great job of portraying this, taking it a step further by setting the story in purgatory, and showing how people can reject God and Christ when all doubt is removed about their existence. Effectively, it just comes down to arrogance and egotism. The whole "it's better to rule in hell than it is to serve in heaven" bit.

Originally posted by adjensen
Well, you've certainly got the anger thing down

Anger? No not me. As you would put it I am simply stating a fact.

When my wife died, for example, my faith was shaken, but the community of my church supported me, and both scripture and my theology gave me reassurance that she was in a good place.

I am sorry to hear that but pleased that you found support within your Church community. That is what they are there for.

Bad acts by Christians, who believe that they are working for God, both in the past, and ongoing, are the result, I think, of either failing to do this, or by adopting a faith, religion or theology that is out of step with what Christ taught.

Agreed.

If you want to say that the whole of the Bible is wrong, and that Christ taught something entirely different, and that God cares so little for us that he has allowed his sacrifice and work to be utterly corrupted so as to be useless, well, that's something that there's no argument against, because it all comes down to faith.

I believe what I believe, you believe what you believe, and we'll all get it sorted in the end.

NOW at long last I believe you might be understanding the point I am trying to put across.

[edit on 5/7/2010 by PuterMan]

reply to post by IamBoon


Star to you for inserting some common sense in the discussion! (Even though most will just ignore you, of course.)

The contradictions in Christianity are many, and when it comes to Hell, the condition devolves into utter absurdity. And yet, they must believe, because, well, it's in the Bible!

And amidst all the smart argumentation, that's really the bottom line for the "believer". In fact, why bother even thinking about it, if it's in the Bible, or your infallible church teaches it, just go with it. And there are Christians like that of course.

And then there are those who always sound like they are trying to convince themselves of their absurd beliefs, and in the process, usually find that all they can do is continue to trot-out all the same, very old arguments that they were fed in their youth.

Religion is a very powerful thing. Long ago our masters recognized this, and so, they fashioned an (almost!) perfect cage for our minds. Around our wrists, and necks might be chains of iron, but as for the cage around our minds, it's always the same: FEAR.

As proven by experimentation, animals that are conditioned to expect a "punishment", will act accordingly (and this should be a sobering thought all by itself).

And then the amazing thing. Long after the "real" threat is removed, the animal continues to "fear"...In fact, some will remain in their cages with wide-open doors! Could this be something like what happens to the poor unfortunate person who refuses to even see the most outlandish contradictions in their "beliefs"? Sad.

JR

It is funny how adjensen ignored smokeandshadows post, and bible-truth, and showed him how eternity in hell is not actually eternity. I wonder if adjensen is fluent in latin, Hebrew or greek??

Originally posted by adjensen
I didn't write that! Go look at the first post in this thread.

My apologies that should have said THE first post and not YOUR first post. The point was that we are discussing a judgement by Christians upon others.

I am NOT imposing a belief on you. You are free to believe whatever you want. How is saying that I believe in Christianity forcing something on you? Do I need to abandon my faith so that you can feel comfortable in yours?

Oh but you are because you are saying that whether I believe it or not I am going to hell because I do not believe in your God. That is an attempt to impose your beliefs on me. Surely you can see that?

Why should you need to abandon your faith? I do not understand your logic there. As we have established you believe what you believe, and I believe what I believe. You believing in Christianity is not forcing anything on me UNTIL you make the statement that I will go to hell because I don't believe your dogma.

You ignored one point that I made in that post... is it your position that God will judge you based on what you believe? That if you've been a good Viking (lots of raping and pillaging and fighting) that you're good to go? Or if your faith said that deflowering virgins was the way to get into heaven, that would be fine by God?

No, you are not seeing the wood for the trees again. If I have been a good Viking and been out raping and pillaging then WODIN will judge me NOT GOD because that is my belief. In my (hypothetical) religion deflowering virgins is the path to Valhalla and it matters not to me as a good Viking what your God thinks about it because he is not real. Only Wodin is real. You might consider that YOUR God might not like it, but that is a complete irrelevance as he does not exist.

You need to step away from the dogma for a minute and look from outside to see that what I am saying makes sense.

I cannot impose Wodin worship on you, I do not have that right and by the same token you cannot impose God worship on me as that also is not right. I can say that you are going to burn in the fires of Hekla because you do not believe in Wodin, and you can say that I am going to burn in the fires of Hell because I do not believe in your God. Neither of us is 'right'. This is our belief, but that does NOT make it 'real' for anyone else.

[edit on 5/7/2010 by PuterMan]

Originally posted by Maddogkull
It is funny how adjensen ignored smokeandshadows post, and bible-truth, and showed him how eternity in hell is not actually eternity. I wonder if adjensen is fluent in latin, Hebrew or greek??

No, I am not.

And I didn't ignore it, I just don't see it as being germane to the issue. What difference does it make if you spend a minute in hell, a year, or eternity? If you're not in there forever, something "gets you out", and, if that's the case, my theology (not imposing, just stating a belief ) says that it would be your acceptance of Christ's salvation.

Quite like the concept of purgatory, as I stated many times.

reply to post by adjensen


A minute, a year or eternity. Trust me it is a difference. a trillion trillion billion decillion mellenuims is not even a speck of time in eternity. it makes a difference. No god would throw someone he loves in hell or eternity. Maybe for awhile, becasue they have done bad things. But not even me, and I am not even perfect like god; and I would not even throw someone in hell for eternity, not even hitler. So how can i be more humble then god?

[edit on 5-7-2010 by Maddogkull]

reply to post by Rockpuck


Glad to see that mine was not the only star you got on your post!

Your avatar identifies you as a Master Mason, so knowing how many ATS'ers revile masonry, I was actually hoping for some "fireworks", especially in a "religious" thread! But I suspect there isn't much to respond to, when it's just common sense you're appealing to after all.

And you finished your post with this:

"There is a school of thought that believes God of the 3 books and his Christ were actually "Satan" .. an Evil entity, not a benevolent God.."

No, I don't guess that was worthy of anyone's attention at all! Or else, you got the automatic brush-off as an agent of Satan. Funny, but it wouldn't surprise me if your radical statement had that effect on some of your readers.

While I'm no fan of anything "secret", your post seems to bolster the fact that only so much can be revealed at a time. And this is a central idea within masonic philosophy as I understand it. So, maybe you've just proved masonry is right about this!

But then, even Jesus said not to throw pearls at swine. No, I wouldn't want any of the christians reading this to take it as an insult, but it's one of those lines that replays in my mind a few times a day. Probably just my "pride"!?

I always enjoy seeing good common sense being offered to religious folk, but it is a bit exasperating at times, when blatant contradictions are seemingly incapable of penetrating their paradigm. But then, that just takes us back to why we must all seemingly proceed only by "degrees"...

JR

reply to post by PuterMan


Is the essence of your argument that our beliefs form reality? That if I dream up a religion with pot-head pixies running the show, and smoking grass and sleeping around are the ways to heaven, when I die, that's what I get?

If so, I can see your point about imposing beliefs, but that's an approach that I put no stock in, finding no reasonable support for it in any experience or study that I've done. Maybe I'm unnecessarily limiting myself, but such a chaotic view of reality isn't compatible with my nature.

If that's not your perspective, well, Christianity is either right or wrong, and that's what will ultimately determine things. If it is right, theologically, I can't see a way that it can stand alongside Norse mythology, shamanism, nature worship, Hinduism, and so on.

That may well be a limitation of my theology, but that's what I've got.

Originally posted by Maddogkull
reply to post by adjensen

 

A minute, a year or eternity. Trust me it is a difference. a trillion trillion billion decillion mellenuims is not even a speck of time in eternity. it makes a difference. No god would throw someone he loves in hell or eternity. Maybe for awhile, becasue they have done bad things. But not even me, and I am not even perfect like god; and I would not even throw someone in hell for eternity, not even hitler. So how can i be more humble then god?

[edit on 5-7-2010 by Maddogkull]

So, what gets you out? Time served?

We don't understand God, not really, so what we would do, or what we find fair probably doesn't have any relevance. Maybe God's unconditional love becomes conditional after we die. Or if we reject him to his face, you become a non-entity that he tosses on the fire without any regard, and that's it.

We can have our hopes, whether they be "everyone gets to heaven" or "no one stays in hell forever", but until we're there, it's all just speculation, and, sadly, depending on how accurate some Christian views are, it may be too late at that point to say "oops, do-over, please! I want to make another choice!" I certainly hope that is not the case, personally.

reply to post by adjensen


What gets you out if asking for forgiveness, something you do not believe in. You are making speculation to. You believe no second chances, hence defeating the purpose of an all loving god. I would think god would love you more when you see him face to face. Like what smoke and shadow said, eternity in hell is flawed. I do believe in a hell because of hellish NDE's. BUT NEVER, did someone stay in hell forever. Some NDE they even asked Jesus or god about hell, and the response was, the spirit or angel laughed and said do you think god would really banish one of his kids into an eternity of pain, and then the angel laughed. You see....don’t take everything in the bible to literally, that is the problem.

Originally posted by adjensen
reply to post by PuterMan

 

Is the essence of your argument that our beliefs form reality? That if I dream up a religion with pot-head pixies running the show, and smoking grass and sleeping around are the ways to heaven, when I die, that's what I get?

Wow great where do I sign up?

No, that argument is yours, because you apply that logic to me. You believe your belief is based on something real and therefore FOR YOU it is and you try to apply that to all others.

Potheadism of course is way older that Christianity and is the only one true religion (sorry I jumped ship from Wodin - I like the sound of this one better although the raping and pillaging sounded good. I have seen the light and been converted, and I was only on the road to Dublin.) When I die I shall be wafted away to the Great Hemp Patch. I really believe that so it must be true.

I am sure you can see the fallacy of that argument. Your beliefs apply to your life here. If you believe that when you die you go to Heaven, Valhalla, The Great Hemp Patch or to Hell, Valhalla or the Great Subterranean Detox Centre then for your time on Earth this is a reality TO YOU. This does not make it real to everyone.

I can say to you that when we die that is it all over. We rot away. End of story. You will say no, you believe in Christ and will gain salvation and enter Heaven. Am I wrong? Who knows. Neither of us can prove it. It is a belief, NOT reality.

Christianity is either right or wrong, and that's what will ultimately determine things. If it is right, theologically, I can't see a way that it can stand alongside Norse mythology, shamanism, nature worship, Hinduism, and so on.

That may well be a limitation of my theology, but that's what I've got.

Of course you can't see how it can stand along side Potheadism (I switched don't forget) because Potheadism is not your belief.

You must by now be able to see that whilst you are entitled to that belief - and I would never deny you that, and indeed are also entitled to consider that I as the raping pillaging Pothead (decided to amalgamate the two religions) will go to your Hell, you cannot state that it is true because it is only true within your own belief system and not in mine.

Edit: Lifted from your other reply

We can have our hopes, whether they be "everyone gets to heaven" or "no one stays in hell forever", but until we're there, it's all just speculation, and, sadly, depending on how accurate some Christian views are, it may be too late at that point to say "oops, do-over, please! I want to make another choice!" I certainly hope that is not the case, personally.

Now I think you understand - it's all just speculation,

[edit on 5/7/2010 by PuterMan]

reply to post by monkeySEEmonkeyDO


Most Biblical statements are in forms of figurative language...when one throws out the garbage, the waste, does one think that the garbage thinks why does a part of me go into the human being to be eaten and digested while the rest goes into the trash can, the garbage disposal, or the incinerator...just as one separates the chaff from the wheat which is an allegory or metaphor, so are those beings who souls would be considered edible while others would be considered inedible, such as distinguishing between mushrooms and toadstools which look alike...souls have the ability to become so called rehabilitated or saved as the words are all dependent upon which civilization coins them and teaches them into comprehension or understanding, so God's instructions are likewise intended to make sense to those who "hear" and those who "see".

So far, life is a mystery compounded by the belief systems of many varied people, and those who learn from the so called Judaic/Christian adhere to Biblical teachings taught in those systems which accept it and try to abide by it and live it. Notice few ever do it well as there is so much evidence to prove that these are hollow faiths which have never been truly assimilated as Jesus had taught, or why would we be at war with one another?

In the end, some people appear to be toxic or poisonous and inedible, and others are lifesaving and edible or nontoxic, such as the wheat and wine that Jesus referred to himself as being compared with, making one think that he is another Greek god Dionysus.

One must learn to discern between the lines as all these teachings were oral for many years before becoming a written word...so many ideas and thoughts have probably been mangled and distorted over time, but the concept of Love is a universal truth, and the most important command God gave is for mankind to love one another...