American was a Christian Nation-What happened?

Originally posted by OldThinker

Which points?

Here I am?

What points?

Good grief! Do you want me repost every dissenting point made in this forum? The topic was originally what happened to Christian America, was it not? Things do seem to have veered away from there, so I'll try and keep to just that. Valid points include:

People understand how the world works better now and don't feel a need for religious answers.

Was America really a Christian country in the first place if it was based on murder and slavery?

Americans aren't necessarily turning away from Christ, they are just 'finding their own path' away from churches.

Americans are discovering other belief systems - is that such a bad thing?

Are Americans fed-up with the hypocritical actions of their predominately Christian government?

Science has disproven many of the religious myths.


Granted, you did address the last one, albeit in a quote-the-bible kind of way which had nothing to do with the actual point of why Americans may possibly be turning away from religion. If you can address these other points in a direct, non-bible-quotey kind of way I would be absolutely delighted.

Can I also just say that even as a non-believer, I have absolutely no problem whatsoever with you or anyone else having religious faith. I'm truly glad that you gain so much joy and peace from it, I just don't see why it has to be such a public thing for so many of you. Some people just aren't comfortable with overt displays of religiousness, in the same way that some aren't comfortable with overt displays of homosexuality. It's a 'yeah it's okay if you want to do it, but why not just keep it in the bedroom?' kind of reaction. A somewhat unusual metaphor to use, I admit, but it's the first thing that came to mind...




[edit on 30/12/08 by sotp]

reply to post by sotp



Great...thx....I've cut and pasted the questions....I'll give my opinion on them...not tonight OK...it's after 3am where I am...

While you were researching the questions i put together something on the probability of new testament fullfullments of the old testament prophecies, I'll post that tomorrow...


And thanks for the kinds words at the end of your last post....but I think I've got hyves (sp?) with the visions of clockwork orange with your object lesson



See you tomorrow!

OT

Originally posted by OldThinker

100% Accuracy....that is the kicker!!!

"Of all prophecies made..."

less than 100, no prophet!

And I haven't seen any FACTS man, just YOUR TAKE!

Remember this one...

There is a way which seems right to a man, But its end is the way of death.

Prov 14:12

Opinions are like a-hols (you know what I mean)_ EVERYBODYS GOT ONE AND THEY USALLY STINK!

Okay, not quite sure on what that was all about. Are you saying they aren't a true prophet if they don't have a 100% accuracy rating? Can you HONESTLY name ONE prophet who has? I mean real, on the money, never wrong, go into a bookies and make some cash on it accurate? Not some vague Nostradamus crap that can be construed in a thousand different ways...

Yet again you resort to quotation (a less than relevant one too), and now you insult my opinion because it differs from your own - really mature debating skills you've got there OT. If you are representative of America's Christians, I'm not surprised many are turning away...

Originally posted by OldThinker

While you were researching the questions i put together something on the probability of new testament fullfullments of the old testament prophecies, I'll post that tomorrow...

Sorry, I'm not being churlish, but you can't seriously expect me to accept what is, to me, a work of fiction being confirmed by another work of fiction. Try using something from the New Testament relating to an event that came later, then maybe I'll listen...

Sweet dreams

reply topost by OldThinker

America was NOT founded on any religion and more a way of thought where NO one religion rules. It’s like saying Secularists and Atheists have no "morals" because they may not have a religion and/or believe in a god.

That being said, as a Secular Atheist, I find myself to be a person who knows quite well what is "right" and what is "wrong".

What is "wrong" with America today is. fundamentalist Christians trying to take over the country, and the world for that matter, by changing laws making it a legal document the Christianity is the most important religion in America and that if we allow these people to keep telling everyone who spend their life with, with stealing tax-payers money to teach hatred, America will end up in another civil war, and end up looking like the Middle East.

Oh, and whets wrong with that area you ask? Fundamentalist Muslims and Jews fighting amongst themselves, and the George W. Bush, and fundamentalist Christian, states his god told him to invade, and look at that, what a success it has become.


Here are some helpful quotes:

“As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.” ~ Tripoli of Barbary. Art. 11. - Authored by American diplomat Joel Barlow in 1796, the following treaty was sent to the floor of the Senate, June 7, 1797, where it was read aloud in its entirety and unanimously approved. John Adams, having seen the treaty, signed it and proudly proclaimed it to the Nation.

"The world is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion". ~ Thomas Paine

"The number, the industry, and the morality of the Priesthood and the devotion of the people have been manifestly increased by the total separation of the Church and the State." ~ James Madison a.k.a. 'The Father of the Constitution of the United States of America

"The United States of America should have a foundation free from the influence of clergy." ~ George Washington

"Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites." ~ Thomas Jefferson



I suggest you support the following organizations to assure America does not become a theocracy, by keeping religion and politics separate:

American Humanist Association – www.AmericanHumanist.org...

American United for Separation of Church & State - www.au.org...

Council for Secular Humanism - http://www.SecularHumanism.org/

Freedom From Religion Foundation - www.ffrf.org...

Friends Committee on National Legislation - www.fcnl.org...

Interfaith Alliance Foundation - www.InterfaithAlliance.org...

Military Religious Freedom Foundation - www.MilitaryReligiousFreedom.org...

Secular Coalition For America - www.secular.org...



Corey Mondello, Boston, Massachusetts, www.CoreyMondellio.com

reply to post by OldThinker


Malarky! Might I point out that before the "Christians" showed up, there was a 10,000 of native history that you've conveniently forgotten. The whites trashed them, gave them scarlet fever on purpose, killed them.

It's time you watched "Dances with Wolves". Native values are much better than Christian values - not racist or sexist; very egalitarian. Unlike Christianity.

OT, many people on here have pointed out the flaws in your case so I am not going to do that. Although did I really see Thomas Paine on one of your list of quotes? The same Thomas Paine who wrote the Age of Reason?

Anyway I used to be Catholic. I was raised Catholic and went to Catholic school from kindergarten until I graduated high school. I was born and raised in Philadelphia but I have resided in South Korea for the past six years. Sometime in high school I began questioning many of Catholicism's teachings and I dropped it all together.

I do believe in something greater than ourselves but I no longer believe in a Christian god.

I would like to suggest this book to you...you don't have to buy it, you can read the whole thing online:

www.godvsthebible.com...

If you don't want to read the whole thing skip to chapter 10 and read from there. Most of the points you are trying to argue in this thread are discussed in that book. I hope it opens you up to other possibilities...

Good luck in your pursuit.

Originally posted by ofhumandescent
reply to post by OldThinker

 

Humanity is starting to grow up.

Sort of like second grade when you found out there was no Santa Claus.

Besides America is now home to Muslims, Hindus and many other religions.



When I do good, I feel good; when I do bad, I feel bad. That's my religion.--Abraham Lincoln, 16th U.S. President [1861-1865]

[edit on 25-12-2008 by ofhumandescent]

I couldn't have said it any better... or Eddie Vedder

Not according to Article 11 of the 1797 Treaty of Tripoli which starts out: "As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion, . . ." . The treaty, which dates from the last part of George Washington's presidency and was unanimously approved by the Senate, shows that for the Founding Fathers, who really ought to know, America was not a Christian nation.

reply to post by sotp


"and now you insult my opinion because it differs from your own - really mature debating skills you've got there OT"


sotp, No that's not my intent...issue is I feel opinions for life in general are good and approprate....but issues relating to faith and eternity because of their gravity should be based on something more concrete than just a temporal, shot in time, vantage point/self perception...

The issue's not about mature debating skills, the issue is I would encourage to open up to more than just your take on these important matters...


My plan is to get to the questions later tonight.Have a good day!

reply to post by HunkaHunka



What aspects are immature to you?

And are they any 'mature'?

Originally posted by LibertyLover
Not according to Article 11 of the 1797 Treaty of Tripoli which starts out: "As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion, . . ." . The treaty, which dates from the last part of George Washington's presidency and was unanimously approved by the Senate, shows that for the Founding Fathers, who really ought to know, America was not a Christian nation.

My proposal is not a matter of identidy, but INFLUENCE from some wise men...included in some of the quotes...

And that we not forget...from where we have come?

reply to post by LibertyLover


This fine man's quote captures what I am saying about INFLUENCE rather than identity...

John Adams:
“ The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity… I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.”

While we're still basically a Christian nation, the right-to-vote has been extended to individuals that don't have any concept of our government and how it works.

Then again, what kind of a "Christian" would allow their church to be led by a lesbian?

I propose and support that every amendment, with the exception of Amendments 13, 21 and 26, be repealed and only landowners be allowed to vote. People that make their living on the dole or currently doing time in the penal system, incarcerated or on parole/probation, should be denied the right to vote until full citizenship is restored.

Some of you may disagree, but the question remains; how can a person be self-reliant when they depend on the tax-payers to suppport them?

reply to post by OldThinker


This nation was NOT formed to be exclusively Christian country. Our constitution protects us against any particular religious group frpm imposing their views on the general public. Religion is a very personal and strong force in MY life, and I will NEVER give my consent or allow my elected representatives to support such a move.

reply to post by OldThinker

ah yes, good old andy jackson relying on gods mercy. luckily they hung jesus on a cross rather than murdered him on the trail of tears. as i recall the hebrew scriptures god can hold a grudge. if i was black or native american and really believied that slavery and genocide were christian values id have a difficult time being a christian

reply to post by Intelearthling


I think I'm missing the true understanding of your post. Are you saying you do not agree with amendments 13,21,and 26?

You think only land owners should be allowed to vote? And not allow those that are "on the dole" That is to mean anyone that gets their money from the government right?

I just wanted to get those things clarified before I posted something stupid and looked more foolish than I normally do

reply to post by OldThinker



Yes, I think American has ceased to be a Christian nation. Since the 1970's Christians have relied on conservative groups headed by Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, and a host of others to usher in a new age by having Christian morality legislated into law. So far not one item of their agenda has ever been acted upon and made a law.

As a Christian, as I am a Christian too, we are to pray and have faith in God and his wisdom. We have to wait upon the Lord and he will take care of things,that is if we ask earnestly and with a pure heart. Yet these multi-millionaires took it upon themselves to speak for all Christians. They had a vision of America, a vision that suited their own self indulgent purpose.
It was all about control and power. They were behaving like the Pharasies, dogmatic, authoritarian, and self indulgent.

If everyone, whether Christian or not, followed this simple plan I guarantee that by this time next year the US will looked like the promise land once again. The plan goes like this.......

1. Pray and ask forgiveness for your sins
2 Fast
3. Pray for your country
4 Pray for your leaders
5. Pray for your enemies
6. Pray and ask what you can do
7. Thank God for everything you have

If this is followed at least once a week things will change.

Well that's my 2cents and I hope to hear what others think.
.

reply to post by OldThinker


i am not a christian wholeheartedly, but i believe for the ideals it stands for, and it WAS the basis for family stability and media policing. it worked for many many years, and when you compare it to our PC society now, it worked much better. we are quickly becoming romanesque, and if both sides want to bicker on this issue, i recommend you read the communist manifesto. this lays out the exact gameplan of what has happened to date, and i would say they've accomplished 99% of their stated goals. whether its communistic goals or not, the manifesto outlines a standard format for corrupting our country from the inside out, and lays out a plan that has been successful at demasculinating the male figure, encouraging single parent families and divorce, and fully promoting gays and bisexuals to challenge the nuclear family.

we sensationalize crime, sex and violence, and we now have our own form of gladiators, in the form of UFC and other entities. its pretty clear to me that the public policy is to destroy what christianity stands for, if not christianity itself, and create a society that doesnt know what to think, only relying on its beliefs from our media/social programming. be careful of what you say and think, its the new religion.

reply to post by OldThinker


I guess it depends on which quotes you go for, eh, OT?
F'rinstance.....

==================================
The Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense founded on the Christian religion
by Jim Walker
Originated: 11 Apr. 1997
Many Religious Right activists have attempted to rewrite history by asserting that the United States government derived from Christian foundations, that our Founding Fathers originally aimed for a Christian nation. This idea simply does not hold to the historical evidence.
Of course many Americans did practice Christianity, but so also did many believe in deistic philosophy. Indeed, most of our influential Founding Fathers, although they respected the rights of other religionists, held to deism and Freemasonry tenets rather than to Christianity.
The U.S. Constitution
The United States Constitution serves as the law of the land for America and indicates the intent of our Founding Fathers. The Constitution forms a secular document, and nowhere does it appeal to God, Christianity, Jesus, or any supreme being. (For those who think the date of the Constitution contradicts the last sentence, see note 1 at the end.) The U.S. government derives from people (not God), as it clearly states in the preamble: "We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect Union...." The omission of God in the Constitution did not come out of forgetfulness, but rather out of the Founding Fathers purposeful intentions to keep government separate from religion.
Although the Constitution does not include the phrase "Separation of Church & State," neither does it say "Freedom of religion." However, the Constitution implies both in the 1st Amendment. As to our freedoms, the 1st Amendment provides exclusionary wording:
Congress shall make NO law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
Thomas Jefferson made an interpretation of the 1st Amendment to his January 1st, 1802 letter to the Committee of the Danbury Baptist Association calling it a "wall of separation between church and State." Madison had also written that "Strongly guarded. . . is the separation between religion and government in the Constitution of the United States." There existed little controversy about this interpretation from our Founding Fathers.
If religionists better understood the concept of separation of Church & State, they would realize that the wall of separation actually protects their religion. Our secular government allows the free expression of religion and non religion. Today, religions flourish in America; we have more churches than Seven-Elevens.
Although many secular and atheist groups fight for the wall of separation, this does not mean that they wish to lawfully eliminate religion from society. On the contrary, you will find no secular or atheist group attempting to ban Christianity, or any other religion from American society. Keeping religion separate allows atheists and religionists alike, to practice their belief systems, regardless how ridiculous they may seem, without government intervention.
==================

More to come....

reply to post by OldThinker


Some more of that for you, OT.
=======================
The Declaration of Independence
Many Christians who think of America as founded upon Christianity usually present the Declaration of Independence as "proof" of a Christian America. The reason appears obvious: the Declaration mentions God. (You may notice that some Christians avoid the Constitution, with its absence of God.)
However, the Declaration of Independence does not represent any law of the United States. It came before the establishment of our lawful government (the Constitution). The Declaration aimed at announcing the separation of America from Great Britain and it listed the various grievances with them. The Declaration includes the words, "The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America." The grievances against Great Britain no longer hold today, and we have more than thirteen states.
Although the Declaration may have influential power, it may inspire the lofty thoughts of poets and believers, and judges may mention it in their summations, it holds no legal power today. It represents a historical document about rebellious intentions against Great Britain at a time before the formation of our government.
Of course the Declaration stands as a great political document. Its author aimed at a future government designed and upheld by people and not based on a superstitious god or religious monarchy. It observed that all men "are created equal" meaning that we all get born with the abilities of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That "to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men." Please note that the Declaration says nothing about our rights secured by Christianity. It bears repeating: "Governments are instituted among men."
Moreover, the mentioning of God in the Declaration does not describe the personal God of Christianity. Thomas Jefferson who held deist beliefs, wrote the majority of the Declaration. The Declaration describes "the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God." This nature's view of God agrees with deist philosophy and might even appeal to those of pantheistical beliefs, but any attempt to use the Declaration as a support for Christianity will fail for this reason alone.
The Treaty of Tripoli
Unlike most governments of the past, the American Founding Fathers set up a government divorced from any religion. However, as the United States delved into international affairs, few foreign nations knew about the intentions of the U.S. For this reason, a legal document written in the late 1700s explicitly reveals the secular nature of the U.S. government to a foreign nation. In Article 11, it states:
"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."
So here we have a clear admission by the United States in 1797 that our government did not found itself upon Christianity. Unlike the Declaration of Independence, this treaty represented U.S. law as all U.S. Treaties do (see the Constitution, Article VI, Sect.2: "This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof, and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every State shall be bound thereby, anything in the constitution or laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding.")
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