American was a Christian Nation-What happened?

Originally posted by OldThinker

I, too, am bothered by the closed-minded-ness.

To open peoples minds requires proof; Not cut and pasting quotes of others.

I'm a beliver, but on Faith. I can see why others need something more than platitudes and scripture quotes.

Originally posted by OldThinker
Th ank you for your post, I, too, am bothered by the closed-minded-ness.
Oh well, we'll continue thru. Also, when you can pls read all my posts...this thread is to honor those men who loved God...who helped 'form a more-perfect' nation.

Your welcome. Good thing that you are bothered by it, in my opinion. I know what you were saying, I was just saying that America is not and never was the product of any one belief such as christianity. And furthermore we can't know the thoughts or true intentions of anyone.

Originally posted by OldThinker
this thread is to honor those men who loved God...who helped 'form a more-perfect' nation.

If that is so, then maybe your topic should not have been phrased as a question.

You ask in your topic, What Happened?

If you are going to ask a question, be prepared to hear people's opinions on the answer.

Unless you really don't want to know what people think happened and just want to push an agenda.

Not saying that is the case, don't misunderstand, but asking people to read your posts rather than offer an answer to the question you ask is not a way to invite people to contribute positively to your discussion.

The aboriginal people of America had varied cosmologies and beliefs long before the Christians set foot in the Americas; probably even before there were Christians. Just because we conquered those people does that invalidate their beliefs? In your opinion does might make right?

Does our faith and conviction in our dogma grant us the right to determine
what others should believe. Should we start another Crusade to wipe out the infidels and heretics; anyone that is different than us?











[edit on 28-12-2008 by whaaa]

[edit on 28-12-2008 by whaaa]

reply to post by whaaa


Thanks for that, I 'believe' because of a relationship NOW.

And I'll post somee 'evidence' (to me) in due time, when I can due it justice - got my treo now...ok?

OT

Originally posted by cancerian42

And furthermore we can't know the thoughts or true intentions of anyone.

Fine point there..

OT

Originally posted by redhatty


You ask in your topic, What Happened?

If you are going to ask a question, be prepared to hear people's opinions on the answer.

I 'asked' because I don't have all the answers...and to spark some interest.

Worked, I suspect?

Also have I not been open...to others opinions ?

Red, thx for keeping OT on his old toes...

Originally posted by whaaa
The aboriginal people of America had varied cosmologies and beliefs long before the Christians set foot in the Americas. Just because we conquered those people does that invalidate their beliefs? In your opinion does might make right?

Does our faith and conviction in our dogma grant us the right to determine
what others should believe. Should we start another Crusade to wipe out the infidels and heretics; anyone that is different than us?

Is our arrogance a Divine right?

Of course, no.

OT

PS: whaa, I not an idiot, what is your main point?

Originally posted by OldThinker


OT

PS: whaa, I not an idiot, what is your main point?

I not an idiot either

And I could tell you my main point if I fully understood your agenda.

Is it patriotic proselytizing? Winning converts to Christ? Self aggrandizement? Or just plain ole trolling for points and being argumentative?

Originally posted by whaaa

I not an idiot either

And I could tell you my main point if I fully understood your agenda.

Is it patriotic proselytizing? Winning converts to Christ? Self aggrandizement? Or just plain ole trolling for points and being argumentative?

OK...I'm sorry you feel that way. If an ATS American Christian offends you you are welcome to post on the other multiple threads here. l respectfully ask you to move on, ok?

reply to post by OldThinker


Well, I am reading a book on him right now:

"Einstein - His Life and Universe" by Walter Isaacson. He wrote this biography after all of Einstein's letters had been released. Einstein made this quote in an interview with the biographer; George Sylvester Viereck (who also did Hitler) back in 1934? I will have to go back and look up the date.

Another startling quote:

(Viereck) You accept the historical existence of Jesus?
(Einstein) "Unquestionably! No one can read the Gospels with out feeling the actual presence of Jesus. His personality pulsates in every word. No myth is filled with such life."

Originally posted by OldThinker

Originally posted by whaaa

I not an idiot either

And I could tell you my main point if I fully understood your agenda.

Is it patriotic proselytizing? Winning converts to Christ? Self aggrandizement? Or just plain ole trolling for points and being argumentative?

OK...I'm sorry you feel that way. If an ATS American Christian offends you you are welcome to post on the other multiple threads here. l respectfully ask you to move on, ok?





Feel what way? I just asked a question. How did you deduce that I'm offended by American Christians?

And thank you, I will post on other threads but I respectfully decline to move on, ok?

Look, I'll be completely honest. I am a very accepting person. You have your beliefs...and that is fine. Absolutely fine. Just state them as beliefs and not facts. You see, judging by history....A LOT of people have been killed in the name of Christianity and religion in general. Why have they died? Because christians and the such stated that god was a fact...and were not tolerant of other faiths and people who did not believe at all.

In a short, succinct answer to the OP's original question of what happened:


People got smarter and realized religion is the biggest fraud ever perpetrated on mankind.

reply to post by MatrixProphet


I find it really suprising Einsteins stance on jesus I thought for sure that he wouldnt have believed in such things. Now im wondering if it was a religion thing or a spiritual belief in jesus's teachings of peace and love.

reply to post by GlossomBoodchild


Uhh...

I had another 2 paragraphs to further clarify my point...and for some reason only the first one posted...
Strange.
Perhaps it was "god" who deleted it...?
Perhaps I'll clarify later...very frustrated.

Originally posted by GlossomBoodchild
reply to post by GlossomBoodchild

 

Uhh...

I had another 2 paragraphs to further clarify my point...and for some reason only the first one posted...
Strange.
Perhaps it was "god" who deleted it...?
Perhaps I'll clarify later...very frustrated.

That's OK....I usually use WORD and cut and paste my longer post....you can pick it up tomorrow..

Originally posted by GlossomBoodchild
...you have no proof what so ever of the existence of god or any of your "profound" religious beliefs. Please, just state that it is the christian faith you BELIEVE in...

OK, here is my ‘evidence’ for God….lofty post I know…they key is MY…all are free to choose as they see fit.

Part 1….

First of all, the longer I live the more I realize I don't know. Life is a bit more complicated than I thought it would be when I was in my 20/30's. I am a Christian, by that I mean I have chosen to believe that I am imperfect and needed His intervention.

I have come to this conclusion primarily upon LOGIC, not faith. Faith is one of those enigma's in today's vocabulary that has lost its meaning or has been interpreted differently by so many. My journey to this conclusion has a few factors that I will share with the forum/thread.


Point 1 ---- Again before I go on I will try and be LOGIC-based and not bring in a bunch of Christian-eze mumbo jumbo.

Remember Back to the Future and the Delorian (sp?) Imagine if you were Micheal J Fox and someone asked you to go to five (only 5) different time zones/geographical areas and meet one person in each time zone/area and ask them, "please write a book about God, I'll be back in 5 years to collect it."

Five years later you went and picked up the five books. Logically speaking what are the chances those five books would agree? What are the chances those five books would build upon one another? What are the chances you could make any semblance out of them...to live by or the like? Snowballs in your know where, right?

Different people! Different cultures! Difference Time frames! Different Premises! Different World view! etc...

Logically speaking you would have five unconnected books with five different perspectives, right?

Well, the Bible (torah, prophets, gospels, epistles, revelation) are not 5 books by five authors, but 66 books by 40 authors...who did not know one another, did not live in the same town, did not live in the same time line...authors were of every occupation and financial status........yet......the Bible is a one-themed, continuing story.

Doesn't prove it God's Word yet though...just something that might warrant another look.

Point 2 ---- Here's an undisputable fact (I believe at least after examining) Jesus of Nazareth claimed to be God, his followers claimed He claimed to be God...and...non Christian journalist (such as Josephus) claimed He claimed he was God. Doesn't appear here to be different agendas going on. He said it, His followers said He said it, third parties said He said it and even his enemies said He said it (Sanhedrin, Pharisees, etc)

SO...with all that said...we have only two LOGICAL outcomes. No religious double-talk here) Either you BELIEVE or you REJECT. Really no other options right? If you believe, then to you HE IS LORD. If you REJECT there are really only two options for you.

1) JC knew he wasn't telling the truth, therefore he would be A LIAR

2) JC didn't know he wasn't telling the truth, therefore he would be A LUNATIC.

That's the only three logical outcomes...LIAR, LUNATIC of LORD. There is no room for him being a good guy and all, no room for him being a prophet as every other religion on the face of the earth calls him.

Because prophets don't lie and they are not usually in psych wards.

Point 3 ---- Most direct followers were killed for believing in JC. If they had stole his body and the Romans excused, at least one of them would have squilled just before their execution right? I would have...

but NO-All these ordinary folks were willing to passively be matyred for what they saw…

You thoughts ATS-ers?

Credit to Chronicles of Narnia/Oxford Chair CS Lewis as the originator of Liar, Lunatic or LORD…argument

Originally posted by GlossomBoodchild
Please, just state that it is the christian faith you BELIEVE in....

Here is some more to think about...


Part 2-What about the positive impact on the Value of Human Life?

Women. In ancient cultures, a wife was the property of her husband. Aristotle said that a woman was somewhere between a free man and a slave. According to the book Reasons for God by Tim Keller (page 249), "It was extremely common in the Greco-Roman world to throw out new female infants to die from exposure, because of the low status of women in society. The church forbade its members to do so. Greco-Roman society saw no value in an unmarried woman, and therefore it was illegal for a widow to go more than two years without remarrying. But Christianity was the first religion to not force widows to marry. They were supported financially and honored within the community so that they were not under great pressure to remarry if they didn't want to. Pagan widows lost all control of their husband's estate when they remarried but the church allowed widows to maintain their husband's estate. Finally, Christians did not believe in cohabitiation. If a Christian man wanted to live with a woman he had to marry her, and this gave women far greater security. Also, the pagan double standard of allowing married men to have extramarital sex and mistresses was forbidden. In all these ways Christian women enjoyed far greater security and equality than did women in the surrounding culture. See Rodney Stark, The Rise of Christianity." In India, widows were voluntarily or involuntarily burned on their husbands' funeral pyres. Christian missionaries were a major influence in stopping these century-old practices and ideas.
Children. In the ancient world, for example in classical Rome or Greece, infanticide was not only legal, it was applauded. Killing a Roman was murder, but it was commonly held in Rome that killing one's own children could be an act of beauty. Through a higher view of life, it was the early Christian church that ultimately brought an end to infanctide.
Slavery. While it is true that committed Christians have owned slaves in history, it is also true that slavery was ended in great measure by Christian activists. For example, historians credit the British evangelical William Wilberforce as the primary force behind the ending of the international slave trade (which happened prior to the American Civil War). Two-thirds of the members of the American abolition society in 1835 were Christian ministers.
Gladiators. A 5th century monk, Telemachus is credited as being the pivotal force ending the gladiator spectacles.
Cannibalism. Missionary followers of Jesus are credited with stopping cannibalism in many primitive societies.

What about Compassion and Mercy?
Kennedy and Newcombe in their book detail the rise of charity in the name of Jesus over the centuries. This is in stark contrast to history before Jesus. Historians record that prior to Jesus, the ancient world left little trace of any organized charitable effort.

An important aspect to Jesus' ministry was his emphasis on helping the neediest and lowliest in society. For example, his Parable of the Good Samaritan (Luke 10:30-37) is a classic illustration that is still part of our language today. While there are good charitable efforts outside of the name of Jesus, Kennedy and Newcombe argue that Christian charities stand out. They point to Mother Theresa, the Salvation Army, religious hospitals, and church supported soup kitchens and thrift shops in every community. Jesus has had such an enormous impact on charity that one wonders how different things would be if he had never been born.

The mythical character of Santa Claus points back to Christ. St. Nick unquestionably arose within the Christian tradition.

What about the impact on Education?
From the beginning of Judaism, from which Christianity is derived, there was an emphasis on the written word. But the phenomenon of education for the masses has its roots in the Protestant Reformation.

In order to promote Bible literacy, Christians have been leaders in education. This trend was accelerated with the advent of the printing press at about the same time as the Protestant Reformation. Many of the world's languages were first set to writing by Christian missionaries in order for people to read the Bible.

In America, the first law to require education of the masses was passed by the Puritans. The law was called "THE OLD DELUDER SATAN ACT." This name was a reference to the devil, who Christians believe gets his foothold into people's lives because of their ignorance of Scripture.

For the first 200 years in America, children's reading texts emphasized biblical literacy. The emphasis on literacy was so intense in colonial America, that John Quincy Adams said in the early 1800's that the illiteracy rate was only 4/10th of 1 percent. By comparison, it has been estimated that in America today, 40 million people are functionally illiterate.

All but one of the first 123 colleges in colonial America were Christian institutions. While these universities have lost their Christian identities, it is interesting to read the founding statements of these schools. Harvard, for example, was founded on this statement: Let every student be plainly instructed, and earnestly pressed to consider well, the maine end of his life and studies is, to know God and Jesus Christ which is eternall life, John 17:3?

What about “Government of the People”?
While America's constitutional government is not specifically Christian, it can be argued that its roots are taken from biblical doctrines. Here are just a few possible arguments in this regard:

America's first constitution was the Fundamental Orders of Connecticut. The Puritan framers of this document required that each aspect of it be grounded in Scripture. Other constitutions to follow contained many similarities to this one.
At least 50 of the 55 signers of the U.S. Constitution were orthodox Christians.
There is no doubt that the concept of our Constitutional checks and balances system is a direct result of the biblical doctrine of the sinfulness of mankind. All of our founders understood the importance of this doctrine to the social order.
America's foundational idea of The Rule of Law rather than the authority of man traces back to the Old Testament, beginning with the Ten Commandments.
The idea that all men are created equal as enshrined in the Declaration of Independence is a biblical doctrine.
The notion of the sovereign authority of God (as mentioned in the Mayflower Compact, the Declaration of Independence, all 50 state constitutions, our currency, etc.)--rather than the sovereignty of the state--is certainly biblical.
The existence of moral absolutes (a biblical concept) is an important idea in our Declaration of Independence--specifically, self-evident truths and unalienable rights from the Creator.
Many other aspects of our laws come directly from the Bible--for example the judicial, legislative and executive branches trace to Isaiah 33:22. Fair trials with witnesses have numerous Old and New Testament support.
Regarding civil liberty, founding father John Adams (and others) emphasized 2 Corinthians 3:17 as the basis for American civil liberty. The slogan on the Liberty Bell is "Proclaim Liberty throughout the land unto all the Inhabitants Thereof" is from Leviticus 15:10. Kennedy and Newcombe argue that Jesus himself was the greatest civil libertarian of all time.



What about Science?
Kennedy and Newcombe also argue that science has it roots in Christianity. They point out that other world religions may express a worldview of fatalism (everything is fatalistically determined) or of illusion (that the physical world is an illusion). Science could not have arisen from these worldviews.

Christianity on the other hand, is based on the notion that there exists a rational God who is the source of rational truth. This, they argue, gave rise to the possibility of scientific laws.

Evidence for this view is that nearly all the founders of modern science were Christians. These include men such as Keppler, Boyle, Pascal, Pasteur, Newton, etc.

Free Enterprise and the Work Ethic
Private property rights can be traced to the Ten Commandments in Exodus 20:15, 17 (Thou shalt not steal,?Thou shalt not covet.")--as well as to other passages from the Old and New Testaments. Interestingly, there are over 700 references to money in the Bible!

It is noteworthy that Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations was written in 1776, the same year as the birth of America. But many historians credit theologian John Calvin from 200 years earlier as the person who is most responsible for putting together the principles that were always in the Bible into a system adapted by the American founders. For example, the biblical doctrines of self-reliance and self-denial are the foundation of the famous "Protestant work ethic." These doctrines are at the heart of our economic (and political) way of life.

A distinction can be made between biblical capitalism and evolutionary capitalism. The emphasis on biblical capitalism is on the importance of servanthood--a key teaching of Jesus. Evolutionary capitalism on the other hand relies solely on the survival of the fittest. America's anti-trust laws are evidence that American capitalism emphasizes the former over the latter.

Anyone who doubts the relationship of biblical ideas to free enterprise need only to note the stark contrast with communism. Communism is specifically an atheistic system that relies on the non-biblical notion that all men are good (thus will work for the common good). But communism has been an abject economic failure.


Art, Music, Literature
The influence of Jesus on art, music, and literature is enormous. For example, the Christian faith has influenced literature in such Christian writers such as Dante, Chaucer, Donne, Dostoevsky, Shakespeare, Dickens, Milton, etc.

Had Jesus never been born, music would likely sound very different from what we're used to. There may never have developed the cantata, the concerto, or the symphony. Handel, Vivaldi, and Bach were Christians who worked to honor God with their work. Bach, for example, signed all his works with Soli Deo Gloria ("Solely to the glory of God").

Art has likewise been magnificently impacted by Jesus. While much modern art seems to debase the human spirit, classical Christian art tries to bring out the best of mankind--pointing us to a higher plane. This is certainly a tribute to Jesus.

And think of all the incredible architecture through the years. Especially noteworthy are the beautiful cathedrals in Europe. Source: www.faithfacts.org...

Part 3-a wee bit of science,,,ok?

OK, now how many years ago did the prophet Isaiah live?

What about when the Psalms were written?

Was it after ‘Science’ discovered…that the earth was round? I don’t think so..?

Was it after ‘Science’ discovered…that the universe is expanding?

I don’t know…maybe…possibly…Isaiah could have had access to MyFly’s Dilourion (sp?) and jumped ahead in time…probably saw John Titor, had lunch, Italian, I think…and then secretly peeked at the Journal of Modern Science…took some notes…went back to Biblical times, wrote it down and was promoted to Old Testament Author?????

Skeptic, certainly this is mathematically possible….with enough TIME and CHANCE, right?

Well, let’s see what he wrote, ok?

He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in. - Isaiah 40:22

He wraps himself in light as with a garment; he stretches out the heavens like a tent and lays the beams of his upper chambers on their waters. He makes the clouds his chariot and rides on the wings of the wind. - Psalms 104:2-3

This is what God the Lord says — he who created the heavens and stretched them out, who spread out the earth and all that comes out of it, who gives breath to its people, and life to those who walk on it. - Isaiah 42:5

The Lord speaking:
"It is I who made the earth and created mankind upon it. My own hands stretched out the heavens; I marshaled their starry hosts." - Isaiah 45:12

WoW! He knew the earth was round and the universe is expanding! Gee wise!

Certainly JOB had access to a telescope…He must have…right….because he claimed…that the Earth is suspended in emptiness, or space, which Job describes as "nothing." Chapter 26:7 says, "He spreads out the northern [skies] over empty space; he suspends the earth over nothing." NEXT>>>

What about THE HYDROLOGIC CYCLE? OT, what does that mean? I don’t know…I’m thirsty, got to get a drink of water…I’ll be right back??? Water, huh? That’s it! en.wikipedia.org...

It’s all in the GOOD BOOK, folks!!! Who would a thunk it? Even the sphericity stuff too! Whew, this is a neat book!

"He draws up the drops of water, which distill as rain to the streams; the clouds pour down their moisture and abundant showers fall on mankind." - Job 36:27-28 "He wraps up the waters in his clouds, yet the clouds do not burst under their weight." - Job 26:8

The wind blows to the south and turns to the north; round and round it goes, ever returning on its course. All streams flow into the sea, yet the sea is never full. To the place the streams come from, there they return again. - Ecclesiastes 1:6-7

“Hey did you know Moses went to Oxford? Really, must have…he knew that the future fossil record prove plants were around before animals…”

“Really! That’s amazing OT!”

“ Ah, not me…I read it somewhere…"Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds." And it was so. - Genesis 1:11

And God said, "Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the expanse of the sky." - Genesis 1:20 And God said, "Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: livestock, creatures that move along the ground, and wild animals, each according to its kind." And it was so. - Genesis 1:24 NEXT>>>>>

“OT, I thought the Bible was disproved by science?” “Yeah, I’ve heard that myth a few times, did you know the Bible agrees with science…it too says…that the first life appeared in the water…just like science………………….And God said, "Let the water teem with living creatures..." - Genesis 1:20