American was a Christian Nation-What happened?

reply to post by sotp


-People understand how the world works better now and don't feel a need for religious answers.

This is true in some sense, and false in others. I know there are very brilliant people on both sides of this issue. Societal/Technological growth often brings ‘distraction’ to the things that matter most…as I am older I can tell you a few dozen stories of acquaintances were believed this and that would satisfy and have only learned “after the fact” brought only emptiness and pain. My lengthy post on the benefit of Christianity was a reminder to not give up on faith too quickly.


-Was America really a Christian country in the first place if it was based on murder and slavery?

Officially no….by INFLUENCE yes…did bad things happen…of course although “if it were based” is a stretch.

-Americans aren't necessarily turning away from Christ, they are just 'finding their own path' away from churches.

Slippery slop in my humble opinion. Maybe it my vantage point…but after many years the believers are the ones who start hospitals, universities and charities…also since devotional use of the Bible was removed from public schools in the early sixties, they now only teach reading writing and arithmetic…..where they used to also teach ‘right and wrong.’

-Americans are discovering other belief systems - is that such a bad thing?

You either believe Christ words or you don’t….TIME will tell I’m sure.

-Are Americans fed-up with the hypocritical actions of their predominately Christian government?

YES!!! ME TOO!

-Science has disproven many of the religious myths.

Addressed this….

= = = =







[edit on 31-12-2008 by OldThinker]

Originally posted by Nightflyer28


Detecting a pattern here?

You mean from your few paragraphs....or the pages and pages of earlier quotes?

No need to be cute....your contribution was appreicated, it contributed to the dialog!

reply to post by HunkaHunka




Hunka Hunka, Take a break from the car mirror, ok .....


I asked a few questions to you earlier...any contribution bro?

OT

Thank you for finally addressing those points. Now...

Originally posted by OldThinker

...although “if it were based” is a stretch.

Hardly. People went to America, killed most of the indiginous population, and took the land for themselves. Then eventually created the U.S.A, with an economy built on slave labour. Or did none of that really happen?

Originally posted by OldThinker

...the believers are the ones who start hospitals, universities and charities…

I'm sure some charitable organisations have been founded by non-believers, and the same goes for hospitals & universities. You'll find they also have been set up the world over by non-Christians.

Originally posted by OldThinker

You either believe Christ words or you don’t….TIME will tell I’m sure.

And there, perhaps, is the underlying reason for you making this thread! You seem to be a bigot, and you just can't handle the fact that those who have differening beliefs from your precious Christianity are perhaps gaining ground in your precious America. Well, why not go work that extra bit harder and make that time machine! Then you can go back to those halcyon days of the fifties, where you could praise God publicly and irrationally hate commies and gays. Wait, you still do the last two even now, don't you?

I'm still waiting on your proof of a 100% prophet btw....

Originally posted by sotp
You either believe Christ words or you don’t….TIME will tell I’m sure.

And there, perhaps, is the underlying reason for you making this thread! You seem to be a bigot, and you just can't handle the fact that those who have differening beliefs from your precious Christianity are perhaps gaining ground in your precious America. Well, why not go work that extra bit harder and make that time machine! Then you can go back to those halcyon days of the fifties, where you could praise God publicly and irrationally hate commies and gays. Wait, you still do the last two even now, don't you?



sotp, knew you where setting me up, but thought oh well see what happens...

Time will tell....its just three words....time will tell....its just a statement....not sure if those words got you to the BIGOT accusation....speck you were already there bud...


Nothing bigot about time will tell....its a statement of fact. If you are accusing me of beleiving what I 'believe' whole heartedly...guilty!

My beliefs also teach me to LOVE, be accepting all of faiths, cultures, etc...


Can't lump OT into your preconceptions bud...can't do it

Smile though!

OT

Originally posted by sotp
Then you can go back to those halcyon days of the fifties, where you could praise God publicly and irrationally hate commies and gays. Wait, you still do the last two even now, don't you?

This sarcasm doesn't bode well for being taken seriously...you are better than this sotp!

I'm still waiting on your proof of a 100% prophet btw....


What does this mean? Can you proof a prophet is one if he's less than 100% accurate? NO

Can I prove one is if they are 100% accurate NO

Not a good question here sotp...

Originally posted by OldThinker

...the believers are the ones who start hospitals, universities and charities…

I'm sure some charitable organisations have been founded by non-believers, and the same goes for hospitals & universities. You'll find they also have been set up the world over by non-Christians.

Again a tad of truth in your response...doesn't dilute my point and you know it man...


here's a few...not enough ATS diskspace to post it all..

Salvation Army (26)
dir.yahoo.com/.../Charities/Salvation_Army
World Vision International@
dir.yahoo.com/.../Organizations/World_Vision_International
Bread for the World
Citizens' movement seeking justice for the world's hungry people by lobbying our nation's decision makers.
www.bread.org
Church World Service (2)
dir.yahoo.com/.../Charities/Church_World_Service
Tearfund
Evangelical Christian relief and development charity working in partnership to bring help and hope to communities in need around the world.
www.tearfund.org
Lutheran World Relief
Works to help people grow food, improve health, strengthen communities, end conflict, build livelihoods, and recover from disasters.
www.lwr.org
Christian Reformed World Relief Committee (CRWRC)
Relief, development, and educational ministry supported by the Christian Reformed Church in North America.
www.crwrc.org
Operation Blessing International (2)
dir.yahoo.com/.../Charities/Operation_Blessing_International
Mercy Ships
Humanitarian organization committed to a three-fold purpose of mercy and relief, training, and ministry.
www.mercyships.org
International Orthodox Christian Charities
Coordinating international relief.
www.iocc.org
World Concern
Relief and development organization helping poor and oppressed families become self-reliant through food, jobs, health care and education.
www.worldconcern.org
World Relief
Christian nonprofit provides humanitarian aid, disaster, and emergency relief. Involved in community and economic development, welfare reform, refugee resettlement, and immigration.
www.worldrelief.org
Educational Concerns for Hunger Organization
Offers information about tropical agriculture, seeds, and training to missionaries, and development workers worldwide.
www.echonet.org
MEDAIR
Christian relief and non-governmental organization aims for providing life-saving rehabilitation in disasters, crises, and conflict areas.
www.medair.org
Pura Vida Coffee
Sells hand-roasted, gourmet coffees in a variety of blends and flavors. All net proceeds benefit at-risk children in coffee-growing regions of the world.
www.puravidacoffee.com
Samaritan's Purse (2)
dir.yahoo.com/.../Charities/Samaritan_s_Purse
Maranatha Volunteers International
Constructs churches, schools, orphanages, clinics, housing and other structures in areas of great need around the world.
www.maranatha.org
National Benevolent Association
Provide social and health services to meet physical, emotional, mental and spiritual needs.
www.nbacares.org
Church Action on Poverty
National charity seeking to eradicate poverty in the U.K. Publishes educational materials, undertakes research, and runs events across the country.
www.church-poverty.org.uk
Marine Reach International
Interdenominational Christian organization providing medical care and facilities via ship, truck, and other means.
www.marinereach.com

Originally posted by OldThinker

sotp, knew you where setting me up, but thought oh well see what happens...

Time will tell....its just three words....time will tell....its just a statement....not sure if those words got you to the BIGOT accusation....speck you were already there bud...

In all honesty I wasn't setting you up, and it's not the "time will tell" that I take the bigotry angle from, it's the "you either believe in Christ or you don't". That along with some other things you've said just gives me that feeling...

My beliefs also teach me to LOVE, be accepting all of faiths, cultures, etc...

If you were truly accepting of all faiths & cultures you wouldn't have started this thread, because America losing its Christianity wouldn't be an issue. That says, to me at any rate, maybe you aren't as tolerant as you believe...

This sarcasm doesn't bode well for being taken seriously...you are better than this sotp!

Hah you clearly don't know me well enough mate!

Anyway, I was only being sarcastic up to a point. Change is inevitable, whether you think it's for better or worse. The America you seek hasn't existed since the fifties...

What does this mean? Can you proof a prophet is one if he's less than 100% accurate? NO

Can I prove one is if they are 100% accurate NO

Not a good question here sotp...

I'm sorry, but that was the impression I was getting from some of your earlier posts. I thought you were going to use the New Testament to prove that point, as I clearly stated that most prophets are wrong about 99% of the time...forget it...

Again a tad of truth in your response...doesn't dilute my point and you know it man...

here's a few...

I never claimed that Christians didn't do good charitable work! Of course they do! I've even done some myself in my younger, non-heathen years! How many of those organisations do that charity work whilst trying to win converts? If they all were TRULY charitable, they would give freely without asking for anything (spiritual) in return. Let those who wish to 'know God' come to Him of their own volition...

Anyhoo, it's rapidly approaching 'the bells' here, the booze is about to start flowing, so I doubt I'll be able to debate in a coherent manner for much longer! I'll check back in tomorrow and see how things are going.

All the best to all, and a HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!

[edit on 31/12/08 by sotp]

reply to post by OldThinker


religion was invented for insecure people to be control by fear, nothing else ; the sooner we get rid of any religion the better ; we do not need religion to recognize what is good or bad

People realized that religion sucked.
That's the truth.
It was fine when we were stupider, and it served a purpose well. Now it is just archaic superstition and brainwashing.
More and more people are waking up.
Eventually (hopefully) it will be all gone, and regarded as just a weird phase of our caveman ancestry.

[edit on 31-12-2008 by cruzion]

Some remarks made by some of the not-so-christian founding fathers:

Thomas Jefferson:

"I have examined all the known superstitions of the word, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth."

"Christianity...(has become) the most perverted system that ever shone on man. ...Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes"; and

"The clergy converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an engine for enslaving mankind and adulterated by artificial constructions into a contrivance to filch wealth and power to themselves...these clergy, in fact, constitute the real Anti-Christ.

Jefferson's word for the Bible? "Dunghill."

John Adams:

"Where do we find a precept in the Bible for Creeds, Confessions, Doctrines and Oaths, and whole carloads of other trumpery that we find religion encumbered with in these days?"

Also Adams:

"The doctrine of the divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity."

Adams signed the Treaty of Tripoli. Article 11 states:

"The Government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion." and

"The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in their history. Although the detail of the formation of the American governments is at present little known or regarded either in Europe or in America, it may hereafter become an object of curiosity. It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses.

Washington - Deist

James Madison: "What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not."

Benjamin Franklin - Deist

If indeed our Framers had aimed to found a Christian republic, it would seem highly unlikely that they would have forgotten to leave out their Christian intentions in the Supreme law of the land. In fact, nowhere in the Constitution do we have a single mention of Christianity, God, Jesus, or any Supreme Being. There occurs only two references to religion and they both use exclusionary wording. The 1st Amendment's says, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion. . ." and in Article VI, Section 3, ". . . no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States."

Some were Christian for sure, some were not. To say this nation was founded as a Christian nation is not entirely correct. You could posit, IMHO, that it referred to Christian foundations, but that is about the extent of it, IMHO.

Happy New Year all!

The United States of America is the product of the Enlightenment, not the product of current Fundamentalism. Acknowledging the basic truths of Christianity does not make it a Christian nation.

reply to post by cruzion


The people that bastardize religion for personal gain suck. The faith itself it fine. People of faith as well as those that choose to not have that faith should realize that their outlook is not for everyone. Ones spiritual. side should be kept personal. That way not pushing your belief on others. I do not like the door knocking Christians and more than I like someone calling me stupid for believing as I do. Bare in mind I'm not saying your doing any of that.

As I said earlier. America was not started as a Christian heaven. America has a very wide range of people of different faiths.and that's just fine by me. If thee is something that makes you feel at peace with yourself..Fantastic! Worship a turnip for all anyone should care. It's the core of knowing right and wrong that should matter. Not who says it and when.

Don't kill people..That's bad
Don't steal from people..Also bad.
Don't try to sleep with your neighbors wife - That can get you shot!
Don't lie about what someone has done (bare false witness) someone might do that to you. And you will not like it.

I'm sure many people besides Christians thought these to be pretty good ideas.

I'm sure many people besides Christians thought these to be pretty good ideas.

They were very good ideas. That's why christianity plundered and assimilated them all!
Is there any part of christianity that is original/not stolen?

Originally posted by OldThinker
reply to post by ofhumandescent

 

Also the muslims, hindu's and other religions...come here...for freedom, both to worship...or as my searching atheists freedom NOT to ...BECAUSE of the wisdom of those founding Christians...

There are several things that have happened to start the end of the US.

1) Central Banks, ie. the Fed here.

2) If you have to buy your friends, they are not your friends.

3) The JFK killing.

4) 700+ bases, in 130+ countries, playing policeman of the world.

5) Corporations have more rights than citizens.

6) Lobbyists setting policy thru soft money and less known means

7) Layers of taxes that start with the raw material, and continue thru
every hand touching it til final product so that a set of tires due to
taxes, fees, licenses, etc etc ends up being effectively 80% tax.
This is but one example in the tax chain, our effective tax rate is
much higher than ppl might know.

8) Corrupt government officials who say they are christian but
are not even remotely christian.

Cremation of Care Ceremony below the giant owl statue by US govt officials

9) Continuity of Government plans that plan for the safety of the
leaders, but not of the ppl.

10) Secret meetings with foreign powers by members of our government
in violation of the Logan Act on film yet no prosecution will ever be
filed against them.

These are but 10, there are many more, and I just post them here
is an exercise in futility for it is already far too late to get any real
change past the CFR members, the Committee of 300, the Club
of Rome or the Bilderbergers.

The agenda is already near its completion.

Look to those you care about and get ready to hide underground
and away from the cities, you won't live thru it on the surface.

Good Luck to you all !

Just a little tid bit of info (yea i said tid bit) columbus never set foot he never even saw america he found columbia. and we arnt christain because mmost of us still have free will and free minds and we know you can still be good without a god telling you that if your bad you will go to hell i dont need to belieeve that to be a good person but thougth i should tell you the first part.


P.S. H was also a prostitute

Originally posted by Oaktree777
Some remarks made by some of the not-so-christian founding fathers:

Thomas Jefferson:

"I have examined all the known superstitions of the word, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth."

From the Jefferson Library; Link

"I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition [Christianity] one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology."

We are asked about this one on a fairly regular basis. As with many spurious Jefferson quotes, it is frequently seen on various Internet sites. Many sites do not cite a source, but a good number of those that do attribute this quote to a letter from TJ to a "Dr. Wood." As far as we know, TJ never wrote to an individual calling him/herself Dr. Wood. Another suspicious element is the statement that he does not find in Christianity "one redeeming feature." One presumes that Jefferson did, in fact, find some redeeming features in Christianity, otherwise he would not have taken the time to paste together his own versions of the Bible. See the report Jefferson's Religious Beliefs for more information.

Jefferson, however was NOT a Christian
John Adams:

"Where do we find a precept in the Bible for Creeds, Confessions, Doctrines and Oaths, and whole carloads of other trumpery that we find religion encumbered with in these days?"

Most protestants would agree with that quote.
Here's something else he said at US historysite.com

"I have examined all religions, as well as my narrow sphere, my straightened means, and my busy life, would allow; and the result is that the Bible is the best Book in the world. It contains more philosophy than all the libraries I have seen."
December 25, 1813 letter to Thomas Jefferson

Without Religion this World would be Something not fit to be mentioned in polite Company, I mean Hell."
[John Adams to Thomas Jefferson, April 19, 1817]

We recognize no Sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus!”
[April 18, 1775, on the eve of the Revolutionary War after a British major ordered John Adams, John Hancock, and those with them to disperse in “the name of George the Sovereign King of England." ]

Also Adams:

"The doctrine of the divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity."

It's quite true in many religious institutions!
Notice he didn't say "Jesus is absurd"?

James Madison: "What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not."

I think after Bloody Mary and King James, people had enough of religious and Monarchal tyrants- Hence the establishment of America.
He also said,

[W]e hold it for a fundamental and undeniable truth, "that religion or the duty which we owe to our Creator and the manner of discharging it, can be directed only by reason and conviction, not by force or violence."
Memorial and Remonstrance, 1785

Benjamin Franklin - Deist

The revolutionary war and beyond
also quotes him as saying things like this, though a deist;

"Here is my Creed. I believe in one God, the Creator of the Universe. That He governs it by His Providence. That He ought to be worshipped.

That the most acceptable service we render to Him is in doing good to His other Children. That the soul of Man is immortal, and will be treated with Justice in another Life respecting its conduct in this. These I take to be the fundamental points in all sound Religion, and I regard them as you do in whatever Sect I meet with them.

As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion, as he left them to us, is the best the World ever saw, or is likely to see." - Letter to Ezra Stiles, President of Yale University, March 9, 1790

'Deist' DOESN'T mean 'atheist'!


For everyone saying that the pilgrims started trying to kill and steal from the Indians nearly as soon as they got here;
Squanto helped broker a peace treaty that lasted for 50 years. MayflowerHistory.com
^^^^^
Some accounts say that Squanto undermined the peace at times before his death because of power-tripping, by threatening tribes with pilgrim force if they didn't do as they were told(Unbeknownst to the pilgrims)

But Squanto's new-found power soon began to corrupt him. He realized that the Indians had a significant fear of the English, especially their guns and technology. He leveraged this fear for his own private benefit, exacting tributes to put in a good word for someone, or by threatening to have the English release the plague against them. Squanto even went so far as trying to trick the Pilgrims into a show of military action, by claiming certain Indian groups were in conspiracy together to fight the English: but he went too far, and his treachery was discovered by both the Pilgrims and the Indians.

When Massasoit learned that Squanto was abusing his power and deceiving for personal gain, he ordered the Pilgrims to turn over Squanto for punishment (death). The Pilgrims were obligated to do so, by the peace treaty they had signed: but at the same time they realized that the survival of their Colony depended on communication with the Indians. But Massasoit had called their hand, and William Bradford was minutes away from turning Squanto over for execution, when a ship came onto the horizon. Not knowing whether it was friend or foe, and even suspecting that perhaps the Indians were in conspiracy with the French, Bradford refused to turn over Squanto until the identity of the ship was discovered. The ship turned out to be the Fortune, and for Squanto it was very good fortune it arrived. The new settlers, the shortage of food, and the oncoming winter distracted from other events. Then as spring came, new settlers showed up to found another colony, at Wessagussett: and they had all kinds of problems with the Indians that required Squanto's interpreting skills. Massasoit, though clearly disappointed and frustrated, didn't bother asking for Squanto's life again.

I am part Cherokee and there are LOTS of Jesus-loving Cherokees!
Happy New Year To All!!!!



[edit on 31-12-2008 by Clearskies]

reply to post by cruzion


You can't blame the religion. Blame the people that used religion to exploit others. There are bad people everywhere. Even in churches. There are many that are devout in their faith that would never attempt to exploit others.

The biggest problem with religion is that people are involved That's why many people that have a pretty strong faith (myself being one) can't find a church to attend being we have problems with the people in them. I attend the one church that was actually built by God. Out in the middle of the woods where I feel more at one with God than I ever could in any house built be men. There the only one to mess it up is me. But I try to leave my church as I found it.

It's 11:33 pm here in my old Ky. home...Happy new year ATS!

reply to post by DrumJunkie


Yes, but you can't feel adversely to being with other believers and studying, worshipping.
Just take people with a grain of salt and trust God< Not ALL men.

reply to post by Clearskies


I don't have a problem with anyone and how they worship or even if they worship or not. For me my faith is personal and I try to treat everyone the same. It don't matter how one believes to me. I don't have to agree wit hit to want to stand up and defend their right to believe it or not believe as the case may be.

I just wander off when it's my time with the cosmic juice and do my thing as I think I need to.