Radical Homosexual Terrorism

Originally posted by Lightmare

As for rest, many of the non-Christians around here apparently feel threatened by the absolutist views in Christian doctrine.

Threatened? Eternal damnation for acting on their nature. Who would have thunk it!? heh...

Therefore they look for any reason to try to discredit and silence anything that sounds like a fundamentalist point of view.

Wait... you just said "absolute views in Christian doctrine". That is fundamentalist. I am not saying that is wrong. Just showing the inherent contradiction here.

They preach tolerance and acceptance but show nothing but fear and distrust.

Ugh. Can both sides stop with the generalizations? Especially towards ATS members?

I "preach" tolerance and acceptance and I very much show it! I also show distrust sure. But I show my tolerance and acceptance. I do this by tolerating and accepting any human being as being worthy of my love and my friendship. I have gay people and Christian people that I love.

Many of the people on ATS that "preach" tolerance and acceptance are probably doing a lot of it in their lives

[edit on 17-11-2008 by Lucid Lunacy]

Originally posted by Lightmare
reply to post by melatonin

 

Wrong again, Mel. I can actually see beyond my own beliefs quite well thankyou. And I understand quite clearly what you are trying to say. I just think its pure crap. Simply not applicable here. OK?

Perhaps the word "terrorism" might be a slight overstatement for this situation. But only a VERY SLIGHT one. Sure, they didn't bomb the church or anything like that. But they did attempt to induce TERROR in the church attendees by dressing up like TERRORISTS. Thats like yelling the word "bomb" on a crowded jet plane. Not a very smart thing to do.

And the fact remains that these protesters had NO intention of peacefully attending the church service but they had EVERY intention of causing trouble. There is NOTHING you can say that will change that.

[edit on 11/17/2008 by Lightmare]

Hrrm. Really, though? I mean, dressed up as terrorists? You're saying that, of course, because they looked vaguely like Muslims, right? Honestly, if people were terrified because they looked like Muslims, perhaps they could use a good scare to set them straight. The world is not that simple despite the fact that some might find it advantageous for a lot of folks to think that way. It's not like yelling "bomb" on a crowded plane. It's playing on people's tendency to overreact in a frankly stupid way. I'm not saying there's virtue to it or utility to it in this case. I'm saying that your hyperbole is quite off base.

Further, while I might agree with you that this is not the best way to change minds, so what if they showed up to cause trouble? That sort of thing is, historically, how civil rights are won. When thousands of African Americans marched with Martin Luther King Jr., believe me, they didn't do so with the expectation that it would make people feel comfortable and safe. They also didn't do so with the desire to cause any harm.

reply to post by Lucid Lunacy


Well, I believe in the absolutist views of Christian doctrine. Guess that makes me a fundamentalist. I believe anybody who is not saved by Christ is going to Hell. Does that mean I hate them? No. Does it mean that I will try to force them to convert? No.

I know atheists. I know Pagans. I know gay people. I believe they are going to Hell for the way they live. But I don't hate them. In fact, they are my friends and loved ones. I'm worried about their eternal well-being. I love them. I cry for them. Does that make me intolerant?

To me, a cool person is a cool person, regardless of whether or not they are saved. That sounds pretty tolerant to me. I'm sure most of the other fundamentalists around here feel the same way and will tell you so.

Christians already tolerate those who disagree with them. And we will continue to do so. What we will NOT do is water down our beliefs for the sake of not offending those who do not believe.


Edit to add: I really hate the term "fundamentalist" because of the many negative implications that it carries. But if that is what my absolute belief in Christ makes me, then so be it. But please don't think that makes me a bigot or a hater. Seriously.

[edit on 11/17/2008 by Lightmare]

[edit on 11/18/2008 by Lightmare]

Originally posted by ZombieOctopus
I have serious doubts about this story. Come on, gay people throwing condoms and shouting at children? Is this a B movie?

"Gay terrorists" or Christians attempting to vilify gays by posing as such?

That was my first though when I read the OP. Sounds like something a buch of christian high schoolers threw together to make gays look bad.

Chrono

Originally posted by Lightmare
reply to post by Lucid Lunacy

 

Well, I believe in the absolutist views of Christian doctrine. Guess that makes me a fundamentalist. I believe anybody who is not saved by Christ is going to Hell. Does that mean I hate them? No. Does it mean that I will try to force them to convert? No.

I know atheists. I know Pagans. I know gay people. I believe they are going to Hell for the way they live. But I don't hate them. In fact, they are my friends and loved ones. I'm worried about their eternal well-being. I love them. I cry for them. Does that make me intolerant?

I'm not trying to be sarcastic.

But that is some really scary shlt, I mean honestly, I can't imagine living in a world where I thought so many people around me where going to spend eternity in unimaginable suffering...forever...that just seems really sad.

But that is your point of view, you are welcome to it, and even if I can't understand it, it doesn't matter.

Even if I think your crazy I wouldn't be intolerant of you.

I wouldn't lobby against your right to drive a car on the basis that your deranged just because I don't understand your belief.

Originally posted by ZombieOctopus
I have serious doubts about this story. Come on, gay people throwing condoms and shouting at children? Is this a B movie?

"Gay terrorists" or Christians attempting to vilify gays by posing as such?

Originally posted by Chronogoblin
That was my first though when I read the OP. Sounds like something a buch of christian high schoolers threw together to make gays look bad.

To be very honest, that thought crossed my mind as well- especially after checking out Bash Back's website. It is written as if it is was purposely designed to be some sort of caricature of homosexuals. I've known possibly upwards of dozens of gays and lesbians in my life and none of them talked like that website depicts. It really comes across as someone's skewed perception of homosexuals who is trying to make them look bad.

However, and this will 'prove' nothing, I checked out some of their links and personal/contact information and it actually seems to be run by homosexuals.

Originally posted by Lightmare
reply to post by Lucid Lunacy

 

Well, I believe in the absolutist views of Christian doctrine. Guess that makes me a fundamentalist.

a strict, literal adherence to the doctrine

Yes it does. Technically speaking. Whether you hate it or not. Sucks that it has negative stigma I guess. But it is inline with the definition of a 'fundamentalist'. Again, not saying it is wrong. It's your belief, your conviction. But that would make you a 'Christian fundie'.

I know atheists. I know Pagans. I know gay people. I believe they are going to Hell for the way they live.

I imagine that is even harder for you then it is for them if they do not also believe that. What a juxtaposition!

But I don't hate them. In fact, they are my friends and loved ones.

I have no reason not to believe you. And I am happy to hear.

I'm worried about their eternal well-being. I love them. I cry for them. Does that make me intolerant?

I would need to hear more from them about their thoughts and feelings to know how to answer that

I'm sure most of the other fundamentalists around here feel the same way and will tell you so.

Some definitely I agree Others have told me not only was I going to burn in hell, but that I was a disgusting vile creature, that no doubt screws children and dead bodies.

Christians already tolerate those who disagree with them. And we will continue to do so.

I guess it depends on how we are defining 'tolerance'. I think of it as more of acceptance out of compassion, and not so much 'to tolerate'.

What we will NOT do is water down our beliefs for the sake of not offending those who do not believe.

Understood. And again, characteristic of Christian fundamentalism. Expect ATS members calling you a 'fundie', for better or for worse.

Personally, I don't want the Christian ATS members to water down their beliefs for our sake, this should always be a personal thing. Just make sure to water down the way you express them (if they are offensive).

I really hate the term "fundamentalist" because of the many negative implications that it carries.

And I understand thats. Not sure how to get around that issue. Many non-Christians view many aspects of Christian fundamentalism as negative.

Likewise. Believing people are going to rot in hell for eternity has negative implications Don't fall victim to double standards. Try and see both angles, and I will do the same.

But if that is what my absolute belief in Christ makes me, then so be it. But please don't think that makes me a bigot or a hater. Seriously.

Fair enough! I believe it when you said you love your pagan and your gay friends.

Personally I do not believe viewing homosexuality and paganism as so sinful and wrong that they would rot in hell for all of time, is a belief that is originated from love. I believe it is fear that drives that. So I wouldn't say you hate them, but I wouldn't say your beliefs are about love either.

[edit on 18-11-2008 by Lucid Lunacy]

I think it is pretty telling about the attitudes of people on this thread when all I did was ask why the church had guards and somehow I am sticking up for what these folks did. I do not condone it one bit. I am just curious why a church needs guards. Like I said before, I live in NY and not one church anywhere near me has guards. Not to protect the facy electronics, nor to protect against threats. So what makes this church more of a target than the 15 churches within a bike ride from my house?

These people did wrong, there is no defending that. Blindly defending the poor innocent church is not my idea of intelligent thinking either though. They targeted a Mormon church too right? Poor innocent Mormon Church. Everyone run and defend them....until we find out they are just farming out 13 yr old girls to dirty old Mormon men right?

I was just saying, ok these jerks suck and are wrong. Now before I jump on the cross for this church, did they perhaps do something wrong as well? Two wrongs don't make a right. Sorry if it bothers people that I just want all the facts.

Originally posted by Lightmare
reply to post by melatonin

 

Wrong again, Mel. I can actually see beyond my own beliefs quite well thankyou. And I understand quite clearly what you are trying to say. I just think its pure crap. Simply not applicable here. OK?

Perhaps the word "terrorism" might be a slight overstatement for this situation. But only a VERY SLIGHT one. Sure, they didn't bomb the church or anything like that. But they did attempt to induce TERROR in the church attendees by dressing up like TERRORISTS. Thats like yelling the word "bomb" on a crowded jet plane. Not a very smart thing to do.

And the fact remains that these protesters had NO intention of peacefully attending the church service but they had EVERY intention of causing trouble. There is NOTHING you can say that will change that.

[edit on 11/17/2008 by Lightmare]

Yeah Mel! 'CAUSE HE SAID SO!!!1!! Why? 'Cause it's like TOTALLY DIFFERENT when Jesus does it!!

LOL

Chrono

Originally posted by Lightmare
reply to post by Lucid Lunacy

 

Well, I believe in the absolutist views of Christian doctrine. Guess that makes me a fundamentalist. I believe anybody who is not saved by Christ is going to Hell.

I read your little book a few times and I am pretty sure it clearly states that it is a sin for you to judge who is and who is not going to Hell. Tsk Tsk. You are supposed to spread the word but NOT decide anyone is goig to Hell for ignoring it. Perhaps you need a refresher in your absolutist class.

Just trying to point out that a lot of people here say a lot of things. Unfortunately, that is all most of it is. Just things people say. The hatred and anger here from every side, for every side, along with this religious self ritiousness is really enlightening.

[edit on 18-11-2008 by angel of lightangelo]

Originally posted by Lightmare
reply to post by melatonin

 

WRONG AGAIN.

There are plenty of things done by others of my "ilk" that I would NEVER give my approval to. For example, that one guy, Fred Phelps and his group of hate-filled bigots. I do not approve of their actions and will never defend them regardless of whether or not they claim to be Christians. PERIOD. The same would go for any group of Christians that would use hatespeech as a means to express their disapproval of things which are in opposition to Christian doctrine. Just because I'm a Christian does not mean that I will mindlessly approve everything that other Christians do.

Maybe I was a bit opaque. I never meant you would defend the extremist behaviour of others of your ilk. I said you would defend the actions of the head honcho and his minions (i.e., god, jesus, and his biblical minions).

I actually think, as a group, you have quite clear boundaries of what is acceptable and not for others of your ilk. It's part of the purity factor. Hence why many fail to see other christians as actually christian.

As for your endless attempt to shoehorn the actions of Jesus at the temple into this thread, I will say this. Show me where in the Bible it says that Jesus and his disciples said something like, "Hey guys, I've got an idea. Lets go start some trouble at the temple just to piss everybody off", and I might take you a bit more seriously on that. Good luck though. You won't find it because it is not there.

And there is the difference. Jesus was not trying to get attention by causing a ruckus. On the other hand, that is EXACTLY what these gay protesters were doing.

Again....premeditation is not required to fit the definition.

So far, all we've had are deflections and obfuscation. From incorrect accusations of logical fallacy to claims of unselfishness to impulsive actions. And now you say he wasn't trying to get attention, lol.

None take away from my original point.

Originally posted by Chronogoblin
Yeah Mel! 'CAUSE HE SAID SO!!!1!! Why? 'Cause it's like TOTALLY DIFFERENT when Jesus does it!!

LOL

Chrono

Heh, I noticed. Must be because it was terrorism motivated by tough love.

[edit on 18-11-2008 by melatonin]

reply to post by angel of lightangelo



Its just a GIANT church. I live right down the road to it and used to go to the passion play there when i was little. they have something like 2000-3000 people congregations. Thats why they have security i guess.

Originally posted by angel of lightangelo
Blindly defending the poor innocent church is not my idea of intelligent thinking either though. They targeted a Mormon church too right? Poor innocent Mormon Church. Everyone run and defend them....until we find out they are just farming out 13 yr old girls to dirty old Mormon men right?

I haven't seen any Christians on this thread blindly defending the church. Regardless, I'd like to point something out. Lumping all homosexuals together and judging them by this group is just as prejudice as what you have done. And that is, grouping all Mormons together based on what some have done.

This has been happening quite a bit lately on ATS, especially when it comes to race and religious threads where the majority are now becoming the harassed. Instead of simply saying what happened to them was wrong, they are being judged on the actions of a whole and whatever ill treatment they received is excused in the minds of many based on what others have done.

When people say they do not sympathize with a white student who was harassed in school due to other events where whites were the aggressors, what they essentially did was group all white people together. When people say what happened to this church was justified due to the actions of other religious people, what they just did was group everyone together. It's just as bad as grouping all homosexuals together along with the perpetrators mentioned in the article.



About the church having guards issue: Not really sure why this is surprising or an issue. Are Christians not allowed to have security? It's not a reflection on the churches who have security- it's a reflection on society and the times we live in.

reply to post by Bigwhammy


The question I have is, was this church in anyway associated with anti-gay protests?

If so, then this is understandable, "kill my dog I slay you cat"

Otherwise, it's just unwarranted.

reply to post by Bigwhammy


I think this Homo Vs Christian thing is getting outa' hand.

Bot groups should just Chill out.

While I think Homosexuality is disgusting & sick, I do believe it's a choice of lifestyle & they are Human beings & deserve equal rights.

But then at the same time, I think Christianity is also disgusting & sick, but again, they are human (misguided), but human non the less & also have rights.

Attacking each other like they have been in recent months is not doing either side any favors with the rest of us.

MAN, I winder whats going through the heads of Gay Christians...lol those poor ppl must be really confused.

reply to post by Ironclad


They will probably pick a side, abandon the other completely and become even more enraged than the other people.

Every group that is oppressed for whatever reason feels that they just deserve freedom. then when they get freedom... other people's freedom starts to piss them off.
look at the christians, the people who were sure jupiter could beat up jehova decided christians didnt deserve rights so they killed them. then the christians got rights. then the christians got power. then they killed people.
NOBODY CAN HAVE THAT KIND OF POWER.
the church is like a person because it is a mass of people that think the same (excuse the generalization).
Sorry gays but when you form "organizations" to try and come to a common goal there will be the jerks like these who cannot handle the fact that they arent being stoned to death in the streets. Gaining rights is hard, gaining equality is harder but it takes time for ignorance to fade.

Its hard to imagine but work with me here. a world where GLAAD is the supreme all knowing governing power. and if you arent gay then youre dead! fortunately that would only last so long due to the need of hetero-sex also known as baby makin. /satire

peace homies

I will also add that. I went to this church when i was..."taking the walk with jesus".

They were really nice and rarely the fire and brimstone style preaching. I have been to a pentacostal church that told us to repent if we watched american idol. so by comparison this church should love the gays.

Groups that "fight" for their cause generally push it the opposite way.

I have a couple gay friends and i have never seen them harrass christians though i will make a note to be more watchfull over them now. *suspicious look*

To the many posters who seem bent upon off topic personal attacks and trying to spin this thread as a blanket comment on the homosexual population, that reveals your shallowness and prejudice. As you can see in this post I know I am commenting on the character and actions of the group Bash Back.

From a local Michigan source it appears the so called "protest" also took the form of some public sex acts.



So the church did not press any charges, forgave them, and prayed they would find peace. But I am reading the posts of the anti-Christian bigots here at ATS that want to demonize this church. "Oh they have it coming." if you use that tact then the shoes on the other foot... so did the church retaliate? No! You call evil good and good evil. As the apostle Paul says in Romans chapter one "their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened." Thank you for affirming scripture! You people who are attempting to denigrate the church in defense of these deplorable actions are perfect examples of futile thinking and darkened hearts!

Now I wonder if mel will try to analogize what happened in the bathroom with something Jesus did , as "Tu Quoque" seems to be his new favorite form of fallacious reasoning.









[edit on 11/18/2008 by Bigwhammy]

Wait a minute... Did I read that right...? The church has Security Guards?

reply to post by Jkd Up


Read back in the thread that has been discussed ad nauseum. This was a large mega church. they collect lots of cash and have tens of thousands of dollars worth of multimedia equipment etc. Why is it surprising? With recent events I would say they need a few more.