Undercover in Tibet

Originally posted by Nemiro
And if Tibet is not a country, why is it not refered to as West China?
If they get a separate name, why is their government in exile? (presumably without power)
In Britain, Wales and Scotland, while connected to the mainland, are allowed their own government, laws etc. Why not Tibet?

You can look up the Map of China and check what the other provinces are called, I bet you won't find East China, South China etc. You will find ZheJiang, GuangDong, XinJiang, HeNan, HaiNan, HuBei and so on and so on.
Tibet has a pretty autonomous local government, much more autonomy than in many other provinces of China.

The following is what I just wrote in U2U to someone.

Despite what many try to claim, China is hardly a monolithic country by political structure and the Provincial Governments probably enjoy a far greater degree of power than that of a USA state. The (semi-)autonomous governments (like Tibet) and Special Administration Region (Hong Kong and Macau) are effectively enjoying unprecedented power than we have ever seen in Chinese history for a local government.

When China abandoned collectivism and reformed the ministries it lost a huge amount of central power, most of which was taken up by the Provincial Governments. However, the Central Government is gradually taking back the given power while reforming to a nation-wide system of ruling by the laws. New laws are being implemented, which is strengthening/improving the current political structure of Provincial Governments and minimizing the negative impacts which comes with local governing.

You see a lot of competitions between provinces, counties, regions, metropoles, cities, villagers, towns and to even the neigbour level. Policies are formed two ways, from top down and from bottom up. One of the huge problem which China face is that there is not much accountability for the policies made. This is why you see a lot of corruption, the lower the layer the more and more stubbornly it occurs. That's why you will see nice proposals by a neigbour to get subsidy for building a green park, but when eventually the money is coming down, the park might be only two or three trees if you are lucky.

That's why a better law system with transparancy and openness are in the continuous process of being formed, reviewed and adjusted. A system which could quarantee the accountability of policies implemented from the Central Government and reduce corruption majorly. This is why China need a stronger Central Government to rule and govern the whole country based on the rule of constitutional law.

reply to post by Nemiro


The occupation of Tibet has always been about the resources. During Maos "Great Leap Forward" a plan to industrialize china in the fifties had been a miserable failure. Mao put people to work searching for and melting steel in their back yards. The forest were desimated and the farmers since forging steel were not farming...resulting in one of if not the biggest famines in chinese history. When Mao invaded Tibet in 1959 he taxed the Tibetan people taking their food reserves for himself and the army.

China continues to rape Tibet of it's natural resources. I leave a link that goes into how bad the environment has become in Tibet.

www.tibet.com...

Originally posted by Phil J. Fry
Recently found large oil/gas deposits, the largest uraniumdeposit worldwide and several other precious little minerals/metals or you buy the "we want to help those poor tibetans" fairytale.

So the Chinese "invasion" of 1951 did not show the Chinese really wanted Tibet?


A flawed argument since Chinese people have been claiming Tibet since its FOUNDATION in 1911 as part of new China. How can recent discoveries somehow make it want it more

Originally posted by Witness2008
When Mao invaded Tibet in 1959 he taxed the Tibetan people taking their food reserves for himself and the army.

Mao invaded in 1959???????????????????????????

Please, if you want to make absurb statements then try to grasp the ideas first.

Another thing that one of the men who had escaped said on video # 2 is that after he was arrested and sentenced for 13 years for protesting was that the people torturing him asked if it was American or British governments encouraging the protest.

If America sanctioned such behavior then that question wouldn't have been asked.

reply to post by chinawhite


!959 when china took over the governing of Tibet. Up until then the poor people of Tibet had to simply tolerate the chinese.

I leave another link for those that are interested in the history of Tibet, told by those that experienced the illegal anexation.

www.tibet.com...

reply to post by interestedalways


I agree with you. I think China has been constructing this propagandab for a long time, they have to plant the idea of CIA support for the uprising, and they start with the people they control.

Torturing someone to give false information...witch hunts. And for all the chinese folks here I know it has already been done by the west.

reply to post by interestedalways


Involvement of foreign powers in Chinese internal affairs is nothing new, there are well researched sources from non-Chinese analysts which you can take a look at. You can reconsider your standpoints afterwards.

The following are only two newer articles.

www.globalresearch.ca...

www.globalresearch.ca...


I presume as an ATSer who deny ignorance, you have read the articles by now, then if from a regime's point of view this is a factor in play, then caught suspected seperatists and terrorists would be questioned about the suspected foreign involvements. That is what any self-respecting country would for national security.

reply to post by IchiNiSan


Lets think about this for a moment Ichi...Could it be that the Tibetans just want China out...to have there way of life restored back to them...to live in peace without the threat of forced abortion, forced sterilzation, having their property stolen and their families herded into slums...to be able to practice their Buddhist beliefs with out threat of imprisonment or death.

Maybe the world is butting in because of the human rights violations within china and all those areas the PRC occupies.

I could care less about any geopolitical activities. If china was treating Tibetans with any amount of human dignity I doubt that we would be having this converstion.

Originally posted by Witness2008
!959 when china took over the governing of Tibet. Up until then the poor people of Tibet had to simply tolerate the chinese.

I quote
"When Mao invaded Tibet in 1959 "

That does not sound remotely like the excuse you just told me. So why did the Tibetan begin the revolt in 1956?. Because they claim the Chinese took over the government before 1959 and were protesting against that

www.tibet.com...

Absolutely baseless accusations. Where is the evidence????.


You rant about the US political institutions and their perceive "infallibility" but then you quote figures which are based on sources with obvious bias and have no credibility. If I were to post links to Chinese figures and will resound with a song and dance about it being propaganda

Originally posted by Witness2008

Maybe the world is butting in because of the human rights violations within china and all those areas the PRC occupies.

Why dont you protest against the Iraq war?. Why aren't you posting the deaths the Americans inflict in Iraq?. If you care so much about these "human rights" you hold so dear why dont you fix your house before you go to someone elses. People in glass houses shouldn't be throwing stones

reply to post by chinawhite


There are threads for that.

This thread is about the videos those brave people made and is shedding light on something many of us are blind to, due to the good job of suppression information that appears to be going on in that area.

We can talk about iraq in a thread about iraq, move on if this subject bothers you so, go to a thread you prefer or stay on topic so the rest of us can discuss these videos and what how we feel about them, that is the right thing to do.

Originally posted by interestedalways
There are threads for that.

My point was he claims to be a strong supporter of human rights yet he is exclusively posting Anti-Chinese material whilst does not seem to have much comment about the abuses of his own country. Which brings my back to the point that he is a "fair weather" supporter of human rights just so he can attack China and support his/her soap business by boycotting Chinese products

reply to post by chinawhite


not soap business but candle.. hehe..

to witness2008:

you mentioned the compulsory abortion, if so , how could tibetan population increase from one million to roughly seven million over the past 50+ years.? and dont quote the tibet.com as a source, it is flimsy.

Originally posted by wwssii
not soap business but candle.. hehe..

It was something like that

Anyway it was strange how that developed. He initially started talking about boycotting Chinese products because it was hurting American makers and then made this point about prisoners in China making inferior products then people called him up on that point to which he responded with human rights and China and it developed from there.

Its quite obvious that he wasn't aware of many events that happened before because he only later posted them later in the thread and can easily be found with a quick search of google such as the border incident and Falun Gong which only was a talking point later on even if these where big topics months ago to which he did not participate even though he claims to be a strong supporter of Tibet. Which leads me to conclude that he only a "fair" weather supporter making the rounds to which we have polarized him by challenging his argument and his candle business

reply to post by chinawhite


And there are persons, who posted things like

Attack the information, not the person

and when low on arguments, starting to do exactly the things they've told others to avoid. Funny, isn't it ? And just by the way, could you please back up your attacks with some proof ?

quick search of google

Yes indeed, isn't the sheer amount of human right abuses by the chinese that can be found with a quick google search amazing ? Where there's smoke there's fire, and there is a whole lot of thick black smoke.

reply to post by wwssii

and dont quote the tibet.com as a source, it is flimsy.

www.radicalparty.org...

In contrast, the Tibetan population has declined drastically from over 6 million Tibetans in Tibet at the time of the invasion to about 4.6 million today based on Chinese census figures and first-hand observations. Population transfer has therefore made the Tibetans a minority within their own country.

www.rangzen.com...

Before the "liberation" in 1959, the population of Tibet was 6 million.

How about "don't quote anything that goes against the official chinese stand" ? By the way, proof the 1.2 million population without using official prc sources, please.

Originally posted by Phil J. Fry
and when low on arguments, starting to do exactly the things they've told others to avoid. Funny, isn't it ? And just by the way, could you please back up your attacks with some proof ?

My post are general views about FT and Falun Gong which are directly linked to his constant reference to those bias sites with no creditability. I'm not attacking his spelling or his character but the stance and information his presenting


And please dont AVOID the question

Here are 2 post you could answer
www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Yes indeed, isn't the sheer amount of human right abuses by the chinese that can be found with a quick google search amazing ?

yes, Tibetans and Hollywood have worked hard to be on top of the list of Google searches. Its amazing how much dramatised information that gets mistaken for credible information

Originally posted by Phil J. Fry
www.rangzen.com...

Before the "liberation" in 1959, the population of Tibet was 6 million.

That site is using the same article Tibet.org published. Shows your lack of evidence if you have to use the same information but only posted on a different site

www.radicalparty.org...

In contrast, the Tibetan population has declined drastically from over 6 million Tibetans in Tibet at the time of the invasion to about 4.6 million today based on Chinese census figures and first-hand observations. Population transfer has therefore made the Tibetans a minority within their own country.

Just quoting the Tibetan argument and their figures which again show lack of any evidence EXCEPT for figures which mean nothing without ANY evidence


Why dont you answer my post

Originally posted by Phil J. Fry
And his numbers are flawed. The 1.2 million Tibetans in 1959 have been in the TAR, not Tibet, he just "forgot" to mention Qinghai and Kham.

And what were they basing their "figures on"

The census which was done by BOTH the Tibetans and Chinese had a figure of 2,77,5622 people in both the TAR and the rest of Tibet. At the time in 1954 BEFORE the rebellion or CIA help BOTH sides agreed to the figures.


Now explain to me why the Census is not the accurate figure because it was released WITHOUT bias at the time where no side would lose by stating the population higher or lower. The Chinese had no plans for a supposed crack down to release lower figures than what the Tibetans claimed

Comparing a taser shot with "throwing a prisoner in a tub and electrifying the water" is more then disgusting and clearly shows the mentality here.

First you need to prove that "throwing a prisoner in a tub and electrifying the water" ever happened. I could claim that the US is using Muslim prisoners to test VX chemical gas to see its effectiveness, doesn't make that statement true if you dont have any evidence to back it up. People are being so naive and taking everything at face value when the Tibetans have OBVIOUSLY lied on many occasions including the recent photos they released claiming that the Chinese police staged the march 14th riots when it turned out the picture was from a movie set made back in 2001

Originally posted by Phil J. Fry
And his numbers are flawed. The 1.2 million Tibetans in 1959 have been in the TAR, not Tibet, he just "forgot" to mention Qinghai and Kham.

The Chinese in this case have been absolutely honest in this case. They have not made up figures or tried to make the figures more impressive. If they did they would have released figures showing that the Tibetan population dropped in 1964. Which can be account for in the Fighting which took place and the amount of refugees which fled Tibet with the Dalai Lama. The Tibetans have more reason to put a fake census in and the facts from previous censuses and logic tells me that the Tibetans have created fake numbers since they themselves took part in their own census which they then refute

Total population 1954 2775622
Total population 1964 2500468

www.tibetology.ac.cn...

Tibetan exiles generally say that the number that have died in the Great Leap Forward, violence, or other unnatural causes since 1950 is approximately 1.2 million, which the Communist Party of China denies. According to Patrick French, a supporter of the Tibetan cause who was able to view the data and calculations, the estimate is not reliable because the Tibetans were not able to process the data well enough to produce a credible total, with many persons double or triple counted. There were, however, many casualties, perhaps as many as 400,000. This figure is extrapolated from a calculation Warren W. Smith made from census reports of Tibet which show 200,000 "missing" from Tibet.[2] Even anti-Communist resources such as the Black Book of Communism expresses doubt at the 1.2 million figure, but does note that according to the Chinese census, the total population of ethnic Tibetans in the PRC was 2.8 million in 1953, but only 2.5 million in 1964. It puts forward a figure of 800,000 deaths and alleges that as many as 10% of Tibetans were interned, with few survivors.[3] Chinese demographers have estimated that 90,000 of the 300,000 "missing" Tibetans fled the region.

Originally posted by interestedalways
This thread is about the videos those brave people made and is shedding light on something many of us are blind to, due to the good job of suppression information that appears to be going on in that area.

This thread is indeed about a documentary, but if the video is in dispute for its real purpose, for it biases, for its one sided reporting, for its sensational propaganda commentary and editting, then it should be discussed and not blindly taken for granted that it is "the ultimate truth". Same as that most of you will dispute a video made by a Chinese, then it is only normal for people with a different opinion or more critical disputing this one.

I could care less about any geopolitical activities. If china was treating Tibetans with any amount of human dignity I doubt that we would be having this converstion.

We also might never had this conversation if certain geopolitical powers were involved in the Tibet case.

To me it is more important to analyze what are the real roots of the whole problem. Are there some malevolent powers influencing certain key people in this Tibet issue? Are there malevolent institutions organizing a seperatism movement and deliberating causing chaos and suffering? Are ALL the Tibetans feeling being surpressed and violated or maybe it is any certain groups of Tibetans? And if only a certain group, how much involved and related are they with geopolitical malevolent powers? At the same time, would these unhappy Tibetans be happy if these geopolitical parties were not involved in the Tibet issue? I hope you get my point.

So yeah, I do believe geopolitical activities are one of the most important factor in the whole Tibet issue.