Undercover in Tibet

i have seen the films. apparently, these were shot by the next generation Tibetan splittist.

clip1: they said a girl was shot to death. but we only saw a sound of gun and a person stumbled. then the next scene is the patrol soldiers. all the footage can depict nothing. no one found the soldier shooting. no close screen can tell us the man tumbling on the snow mountain is dead or is a girl. right?. if Chinese soldiers wanted to kill the ppl, then no one can escape. right?.. how could the soldiers allow someone else to shoot the film besides when they commited such commision?.. too ridiculous!

more ludicrous is that i have ever seen the clip in another footage in which the narrator was a westerner with heavy moustache not the guy in this film.. i have searched the post on ATS, but i cant find it since i only can search my recent 180 days post.. but i am sure there must be someone else on ATS know about the other post with similar footage.

clip2: many police were arresting and beating the monks in a monestery in the second footage..LOL..what a clumsy show.... i really dont know who was the photographer, he was too cool and can screen it during a polices' commision.. obviously, it is a fake one.

as for the interviews, i dont bother to rebuke them. the development in tibet can prove the lies they made... to clarify one point, tibetan can have as much child as they want, so one of the interviewer is lying on the sterilization.

if you believe the propaganda of tibetans living in India, i only want to say regret on you.

reply to post by die_another_day


Die_Another_Day your skills with the english language have improved greatly. I encourage all on this thread to take a look at some of your threads and see the remarkable difference.

Tibet has lived with these horrors long before any rioting began. The rioting is a result of the crimes commited against them by the PRC.

reply to post by chinawhite


Population numbers is all you can respond to? Did you see the documentary? Brutal stuff I must say, backs up everything that many of us have been posting. Let us hope the rest of the world sees this.

reply to post by chinawhite


Ya it must be a comfort to all chinese that a Tibetan can be killed because they were doing something "fishey". I am amused at the fact you rely on our bias media when you want to make a point about the west but when it is turned on china it suddely becomes all lies again. At least we know how to turn the spotlight on our own sins...when is the last time china did that?

Originally posted by Phil J. Fry
from www.tibet.com...

Let me analyze the article they wrote.

The military invasion constituted an aggression on a sovereign state and a violation of international law.

A "sovereign state" is one which is recognised by its peers in the world community. At that point the government of Tibet was only recognised by Mongolia another country which was not recognised internationally as a country. The Tibetan government at that point "claimed" to be the government of "greater Tibet" which stretches a good deal into territory Chinese people had been living in for hundreds if not thousands of lands. Greater Tibet had been thought over for thousands of years and the Tibetans had no right to claim that area as their own. To be the "sovereign" government you needed to be accepted in most parts of the area you governed. Tibet did not have a government, it had a network of people connected by the leadership of the Dalai Lama which was more or less based on feudal system whereby the "lords" were the lamas or the privileged class much like pre-revolutionary Russia with serfdom in place.

It was not a government who administered their region nor was it somehow a recognised state by the international community. The Dalai Lama is not the only one which has a claim to Tibetan leadership. There are four sects of Tibetan Buddism and the current Dalai Lama is from the yellow sect or Gelug. The yellow sect overthrew the Karmapa with the help of the mongols and there is much rivalry between Tibetans not this unifed "front" than Hollywood has created. Below is a short recount of what is happening in Tibetan politics

n private, many exiles across the Himalayas, including former Khampa guerrillas who fought the Chinese army in the 1960s, recount disturbing allegations of the Dalai Lama’s security team's involvement in the murdering of his critics by poisoning and bombing. This dark side of intra-Tibetan intrigue is yet to be factually uncovered before world opinion.

The Panchen Lama probably won’t rush to their defense, not after pro-Dharamsala lamas lobbied furiously against Beijing’s attempt to appoint the young lama as a delegate to the National People’s Congress, held in early March, arguing that he was not yet 18 years of age. To avoid controversy, Beijing reluctantly conceded, even though the official birth date of Gyeltshen Norbu was February 13, 1990, making him 18 and eligible.

In the Buddhist view, all things come full circle. In the 17th century, the 5th Dalai Lama called in a Mongol general to overthrow the Karmapa’s theocracy. Today, the Karmapa’s men are ousting the Gelugpa power structure. Ceaseless change is unstoppable, taught Sakyamuni Buddha. Thus, attachment only results in suffering – our attachment to wealth, power, pride, respect and, most of all, to love, the meanest vice yet highest virtue of human existence. Not even his bitter opponents can dispute the deep love of His Holiness the Dalai Lama Tenzin Gyatso for his homeland, Tibet. How difficult it must be now, to let go.

Unfortunately for the Dalai Lama, the loyalists in his once-powerful organization inside Tibet are being selectively investigated, arrested and detained for causing the violence. The Beijing government has repeatedly stated that only a small minority of Tibetans loyal to the Dalai Lama were involved in the protests. Whatever its legal flaws, there’s more than a grain of truth in the official assertion.
Link

Another interesting part of the article analyzes the other sects and their participation or non-participation in the riots. Its easy to dismiss it as Chinese pressure but who wouldn't want to be in power?. Do you know how the Dalai Lama is reincarnated, high ranking "lamas" meditate and their dreams and the Lamas last words are used to find "him" again. This means rival monks can "find" a boy from his region to take power which is absolutely open to corruption.

Amid the mayhem and anarchy, a decisive factor in the Tibetan equation has gone practically unnoticed: Key major players did not join or support the protests:

-- The Panchen Lama, a top prelate of the Gelugpa or Yellow Hat school, second in rank only to the Dalai Lama himself, has spoken in no uncertain terms against the rioting and instead backed the government.
-- Leaders of the Nyingma and Sakya schools, as well as the native Bon religion, did not endorse the protests and are tight-lipped about the wave of arrests.
-- Laymen with the re-ascendant Kagyupa or Black Hat school, are furious with the Dalai Lama after being targeted by Gelugpa supporters during the horsemen’s raid on the Hezuo local district office in south Gansu and in several counties in Sichuan Province.

"Mongolia and Tibet concluded a formal treaty of recognition in 1913; Nepal not only concluded peace treaties with Tibet, and maintained an Ambassador in Lhasa,"

None of these countries were sovereign states in their own right to sign treaties with each other. I cannot see their possible argument they had made. It would be like a independence movement claiming to be the rightly rulers of the country much like cypress (the Turkish half)

It was an ancient form of government which had served the needs of Tibet well in the past

They also claim it was a "ancient" form of government. While feudalism is ancient if thats what they are referring to. This does not explain the fact that prior to 1912 the Tibetans were a protectorate of the Qing Dynasty and all the things they outlined like postal system or militia was allowed under that agreement. The Tibetans administered the domestic issues and the Chinese the international ones. Owning a postal system does not mean they are a country. East Germany is a good example of a country which is not a country and because it ran like a country and even conducted international affairs like a modern nation does not mean it is the sovereign of their area that they governed .

Despite strong pressures from Britain, the U.S. and China to allow the passage of military supplies through Tibet to China

The WW2 leaders did not ask Tibet if they could use its bases, it would have been taking the long way. The "hump" did not travel over the claimed Tibetan lands nor would it have been more efficient for aircraft to fly over the very large peaks directly opposite Nepal. The Chinese wartime leader was more nationalistic than the Communist and the mere statement that Tibet was independent would have made him send a army to take down its government. Their notion that they needed "permission" is absolutely absurd because the US and Britain both acknowledged that Tibet was a part of China to begin with and wouldn't even needed to ask the Tibetans.

Nepal, Bhutan, Britain, China and India maintained diplomatic missions in Tibet's capital, Lhasa. Although China claimed in its propaganda that its mission in Tibet was a branch office of the so-called Commission of Tibetan and Mongolian Affairs of the Guomindang government

Trade relations are not "diplomatic missions". Only Nepal made up half masked attempts to recognise Tibet and that was for Tibetan recognition of itself. It also states that China had a "diplomatic mission" in Tibet. That is absolutely ridiculous. The place was called the "Commission of Tibetan and Mongolian Affairs of the Guomindang government" on its front door and the KMT would never have accepted Tibet as a nation, its written in their bloody constitution that Tibet is a part of China.

Britain NEVER recognized Tibetan independence. India was a British colony so how is that supposed to count for an argument. British colony has foreign relations with Tibet?. Doesn't that contradict their argument that Tibet was a sovereign state because it had foreign relations because they claim India did even though it was a British colony..

They also claim
"On the other hand, it recognised that Tibet was not part of the Republic of China in its official communications with the Government of Tibet. Thus, China's President repeatedly sent letters and envoys to the Dalai Lama and to the Tibetan Government asking that Tibet "join" the Republic of China. Similar messages were sent by China to the Government of Nepal.".

Asking the Dalai Lama to join the ROC GOVERNMENT NOT NATION does not concede that Tibet in Chinese eyes was somehow independent from China. Asking a group to join the government does not mean that they relinquish their claims to Tibet but only re-enforces the fact that the Chinese thought that Tibet was Chinese territory. The article is trying to manipulate the article to make it sound as if the Tibetans had the upper hand in this situation.

But to most countries,China's attack on Tibet was aggression. This became evident especially during the full debates on the issue in the United Nations General Assembly in 1959, 1960, 1961 and 1965,

They began this was a value judgment. Its there supposed opinion at the time of sheer stupidity that a little island was representing about 1/4 of the worlds population. Its there opinion on the issue and yet they state it as some type of fact. This was the same time that the CIA was funding a covert operation inside of China trying to topple of Chinese regime. The US tried to use Tibet themselves as a base where it can control the Asian region but was only stopped by the KMT government and their agreement with them that Tibet was Chinese territory and the Chinese communist and their large land armies. If the Americans were in a position to have Tibet as a base they would ahve taken Tibet ...

Here are some interesting reads from un-biased writers
www.globalresearch.ca...
onlinejournal.com...

Originally posted by Witness2008
Population numbers is all you can respond to?

You might like to check the post a few below it and then the post I just made. I had posted it sometime ago and you responded before I even had time to reply so that try to accuse me of lacking an argument

Originally posted by Witness2008
Ya it must be a comfort to all chinese that a Tibetan can be killed because they were doing something "fishey". I am amused at the fact you rely on our bias media

As I have shown in the SAME post you responded to I gave examples of people doing the exact same thing in "western" countries. Sometimes people forget what the police are trying to do. Chinese police protect the border and they are "murderers", a American officers does it and his protecting America or flying the flag

Bias media?. I said the "mass media" like your CNN or a BBC which are short stories and short on evidence. I read ALL types of media from all news resources to some to a conclusion based on the information I am presented. I used real indepdent media not associted with either group to get my opinion across. I think you fail to understand the argument and only see bias and west and then come to this conclusion or that you are mixing my argument with someone elses

reply to post by Witness2008

Die_Another_Day your skills with the english language have improved greatly. I encourage all on this thread to take a look at some of your threads and see the remarkable difference.

Did that. Fail to see your point.

Tibet has lived with these horrors long before any rioting began. The rioting is a result of the crimes commited against them by the PRC

Ok. So the Chinese should have allowed them to riot???

CT

reply to post by Witness2008


And his numbers are flawed. The 1.2 million Tibetans in 1959 have been in the TAR, not Tibet, he just "forgot" to mention Qinghai and Kham.

But the chinese defense force is strong with this, calling horrible torture methods "standard police procedure" (yes, i think in the views of the PRC, torture IS indeed standard police procedure). Comparing a taser shot with "throwing a prisoner in a tub and electrifying the water" is more then disgusting and clearly shows the mentality here.

Another little "fact" brought up by beijinghaidan this time is

the very title of "dalai lama"was given by the then central government

Ohhhh, well, i think Altan Khan would like to have a word with you, guess he wouldn't have liked to be called central chinese government.

I'm not one to get into political battles but both sides bring up good points.

What really needs to happen is for both parties to be honest. It's just like
the former U.S.S.R once it dissolved parts of it became countries. Now with China and Tibet, I don't believe that Tibetis ready to be a separate country but have the possible prospect of that. Freedoms also need to be increased in China as well, as they continue to grow keeping these freedoms will only make it more difficult to handle. Personally I've only been to China twice, in Hong Kong. One time being a time when it was still partially under British rule the other when it was under China's control. Not much really changed between the times which was 3 yrs apart. But at any rate, the needs to be some dialog between China and Tibet. Make it publicized as well with no spin on any direction. Maybe then we can accurately pass judgement.

-Aza

[edit on 15-4-2008 by Azathoth]

reply to post by Conspiracy Theorist


It's not about the rioting..it is about the brutal treatment of Tibetans under chinese rule. Would you not try to fight for your beliefs, your country?

reply to post by Phil J. Fry


Thanks for getting this thread started, I had heard about this documentary. I see systematic genocide. If china is so troubled by the Tibetans you would think that they would just let them all leave?They obviously shot in order to keep chians ugly secrets in Tibet.

I found a couple of other links on the shooting..a call for an investigation and an account of how the chinese were trying to hunt down witnesses in order to silence them. www.hrw.org...

www.boingboing.net...





[edit on 15-4-2008 by Witness2008]

reply to post by Witness2008

Would you not try to fight for your beliefs, your country?

Is this reserved for Tibetans? Or can Chinese have their beliefs too?

CT

Originally posted by Phil J. Fry
And his numbers are flawed. The 1.2 million Tibetans in 1959 have been in the TAR, not Tibet, he just "forgot" to mention Qinghai and Kham.

And what were they basing their "figures on"

The census which was done by BOTH the Tibetans and Chinese had a figure of 2,77,5622 people in both the TAR and the rest of Tibet. At the time in 1954 BEFORE the rebellion or CIA help BOTH sides agreed to the figures.


Now explain to me why the Census is not the accurate figure because it was released WITHOUT bias at the time where no side would lose by stating the population higher or lower. The Chinese had no plans for a supposed crack down to release lower figures than what the Tibetans claimed

Comparing a taser shot with "throwing a prisoner in a tub and electrifying the water" is more then disgusting and clearly shows the mentality here.

First you need to prove that "throwing a prisoner in a tub and electrifying the water" ever happened. I could claim that the US is using Muslim prisoners to test VX chemical gas to see its effectiveness, doesn't make that statement true if you dont have any evidence to back it up. People are being so naive and taking everything at face value when the Tibetans have OBVIOUSLY lied on many occasions including the recent photos they released claiming that the Chinese police staged the march 14th riots when it turned out the picture was from a movie set made back in 2001

Originally posted by Phil J. Fry
And his numbers are flawed. The 1.2 million Tibetans in 1959 have been in the TAR, not Tibet, he just "forgot" to mention Qinghai and Kham.

The Chinese in this case have been absolutely honest in this case. They have not made up figures or tried to make the figures more impressive. If they did they would have released figures showing that the Tibetan population dropped in 1964. Which can be account for in the Fighting which took place and the amount of refugees which fled Tibet with the Dalai Lama. The Tibetans have more reason to put a fake census in and the facts from previous censuses and logic tells me that the Tibetans have created fake numbers since they themselves took part in their own census which they then refute

Total population 1954 2775622
Total population 1964 2500468

www.tibetology.ac.cn...

Tibetan exiles generally say that the number that have died in the Great Leap Forward, violence, or other unnatural causes since 1950 is approximately 1.2 million, which the Communist Party of China denies. According to Patrick French, a supporter of the Tibetan cause who was able to view the data and calculations, the estimate is not reliable because the Tibetans were not able to process the data well enough to produce a credible total, with many persons double or triple counted. There were, however, many casualties, perhaps as many as 400,000. This figure is extrapolated from a calculation Warren W. Smith made from census reports of Tibet which show 200,000 "missing" from Tibet.[2] Even anti-Communist resources such as the Black Book of Communism expresses doubt at the 1.2 million figure, but does note that according to the Chinese census, the total population of ethnic Tibetans in the PRC was 2.8 million in 1953, but only 2.5 million in 1964. It puts forward a figure of 800,000 deaths and alleges that as many as 10% of Tibetans were interned, with few survivors.[3] Chinese demographers have estimated that 90,000 of the 300,000 "missing" Tibetans fled the region.

up to top
按中国话:顶一下

By only watching the first part I already see how biased this video clip is and not bringing up real evidence to support the footages, with commentary and editting to bring over a biased/propaganda message. The rest are not much better.

It's now only the words of Tibetans against well nothing else, and the Western public seems to buy into it. Same like that Wikilies website, which is only showing a one-sided distorted view of the much more complicated situation.

For the same money anyone from a pro-China field could compile similar documentary showing how happy and friendly Tibetans are, how the Hans, Huis and Tibetans are living happily next doors.

Look at the following thread:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

This shows how easily it is to make a propaganda video and bring something totally out of context.

But of course a Chinese who is making such a documentary will be accused of being an agent and spreading propaganda, isn't it?



Ps. And why would this thread be not compiled in other pro-Tibet "evidence" threads?



[edit on 15/4/08 by IchiNiSan]

Originally posted by die_another_day
China has its own ideals, and it will not get pushed around by pitiful revolts such as this.

Yes .. ideals ... murdering Christians... murdering Tibetians who just want to walk to freedom .... Some kind of 'ideals' they have. :shk:

If Tibet went free, Taiwan will be going too.

GOOD! Oh .. and listen to your words ... If Tibet went FREE.
FREE is the key word there. FREE of being shot. FEEDOM of speech.
FREEDOM of religion. FREE.

Western ideologies are what is suppressing the rest of the world.

... coming from someone who shills for the communists who SUPPRESS EVERYONE. Christians are tortured and killed in China. YOUTUBE is banned. Talk about suppression! :shk:

Originally posted by deessell
It really is hard these days to see who the 'bad guys' really are!

No it's not. Look at the videos.

Originally posted by die_another_day
China has been trying to put down the current revolt as gently as possible.

Sure didn't look 'gentle' to me.

Originally posted by beijinghaidian
,china is a peace loving country,

Sure didn't look 'peace loving' to me.

Originally posted by Ruggeder
They murder there unwanted female babies ... They kill protesters and undesirables ...

I forgot about those things. Thanks Ruggeder.

Originally posted by Witness2008
If china is so troubled by the Tibetans you would think that they would just let them all leave?

WISDOM! Just let them leave. Why not China????

i still dont understand some people's mentality here,you live on the stolen land,having war in many countries,killing local people there,selling most weapons in the world.and you are here preaching human rights,respecting different cultures and freedom.how hypocritical

I am a little confused... Although I can accept that a country is only a Sovereign state if it is accepted to be by other Sovereign states, what made them Sovereign states in the first place? At some point, someone just said "we are a country". Noone had to say yes or no to that.
And if Tibet is not a country, why is it not refered to as West China?
If they get a separate name, why is their government in exile? (presumably without power)
In Britain, Wales and Scotland, while connected to the mainland, are allowed their own government, laws etc. Why not Tibet?

BeijingHaidan: China seems to be doing those things, and it doesn't make it right to say "You did it, why can't we?". That is like a child stealing sweets because someone else did; it is still stealing.
I acknowledge that other countries, particularly those now criticising the actions of your government, have in the past commited acts of injustice of this nature, but you must understand; this is not an attack on the Chinese people, or you personally. People in our countries could have stood up and said to the government "No, this is wrong" and pressurised them into withdrawing. But they didn't. Even the Vietnam protests had little effect, and now we are on to Iraq/Afghanistan, and more people seem to be against it. Now we are asking you to learn from our mistakes!

Like the British Empire, your insistence of controlling Tibet will only last if it is carried out like Spain's colonisation; ruthlessly destroying the native people's culture, religion and sense of identity (Spanish colonies lasted longer I believe, and the native language tended not to revert back, nor did the religion). Anything less will result in an eventual (re)declaration of independence, as the edge your country has on it's neighbour's wanes, and events reduce your ability to maintain a tight grip.
Do you want that?

P.S Why does China's government want Tibet that badly anyway?

[edit on 15/4/08 by Nemiro]

reply to post by Nemiro

Why does China's government want Tibet that badly anyway?

Recently found large oil/gas deposits, the largest uraniumdeposit worldwide and several other precious little minerals/metals or you buy the "we want to help those poor tibetans" fairytale.



[edit on 15-4-2008 by Phil J. Fry] Sorry, the 4 trillion $ was not correct, as it is, large fields have been detected, but i couldn't find any sources to support the worth.

[edit on 15-4-2008 by Phil J. Fry]