Pope Makes Strange Comments at Auschwitz

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German-born Pope Benedict XVI, visiting Auschwitz as "a son of the German people," on Sunday denounced the "unprecedented mass crimes" of the Holocaust, and underlined the reality of Hitler's campaign to wipe out Europe's Jews.

"To speak in this place of horror, in this place where unprecedented mass crimes were committed against God and man, is almost impossible — and it is particularly difficult and troubling for a Christian, for a pope from Germany," he said.

"In a place like this, words fail; in the end, there can be only a dread silence," he said, "a silence which itself is a heartfelt cry to God: Why, Lord, did you remain silent?"

(My emphasis) This really struck me. Is he blaming God for the Pope's silence during the Holocaust? Is he blaming God for his predecessors' handling of the Nazis?

Am I reading it wrong?

Why, Lord, did you remain silent?

One more time..what's that about? Seriously...

I have a question of my own...

Why, Ratzinger, did you remain silent? Why did anyone?

:shk:

You're reading it wrong, I think. God has allowed things to happen to His people that have been horrible, but have been to temper His people, turning them into the nation He wants. This has happened with Babylon, with Rome, and with Germany (among many, many other instances of persecution for the Jewish people).

We now understand why God allowed Babylon and Rome to happen, we have seen the effect it had on Israel as a whole and how such tribulation focused them back on God. We also know that it was not God that caused these things to happen, but instead He allowed an evil in the world to go after Israel.

But why the Holocaust? Why was this allowed to happen? How is it going to Glorify the Kingdom of God? This, I believe, is what the pope was asking.

[edit on 5/28/06/28 by junglejake]

lack of faith in God probably. Maybe the pope should read the bible more often.

Luke 13:1 There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.

2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?

3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?

5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

I just like how the pope said God is silent concerning the holocaust, yet the pope is silent concerning pedophile priests, etc etc.

As I have read the story, young Joseph Ratzinger was inducted into the Hitler Youth at 14. He was assigned as an air raid watch. Later, he turned 17, he was transferred into the German Wehrmacht as a regular soldier and assigned to an anti-aircraft battery somewhere near Austria.

Joseph Ratzinger had to pass the Hitler Youth courses in Nazism while a part of the movement, or he would have been sent to the Russian Front. Now he claims he refused to sign-on with the Aryan Master Race theory but I say, who cares?

He was young and is now embarrassed by what he did. But I would have done the same thing he did. Germans supported Hitler until it was clear he was about to lose the war, then, as in Geo W, his support waned. I know several Germans who fought in WW2. I know others were too young. They are all Catholics and none of them like Jews. But what’s new?

I believe Pope Benedict is sincere when he says he regrets the Holocaust too much to even speak of it. There were enough mistakes to go around to everyone in the 1930s and 1940s. I have great admiration for the German people who are teaching their children about the Holocaust and admitting they are blameworthy for what was done in their name. What more can you do?

From what I have heard on the subject President Roosevelt had a warning of what was going to happen to the Jews and had the opportunity to bring millions of Jews out of Europe but didn't.

It's a shame that the world turned the other way and allowed a people to be almost exterminated.

posted by dbrandt

I have heard President Roosevelt had a warning of what was going to happen to the Jews and had the opportunity to bring millions of Jews out of Europe but didn't . . “ [Edited by Don W]

In 1939, the Hamburg American Line ship SS St. Louis brought 900 German Jewish passengers to Cuba but were denied the right to land. The US refused to allow them to land and the ship returned to Germany. Almost all the passengers who could be traced died in German concentration and death camps. See www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...

It took the very efficient Germans from 1941 to 1945 to transport and murder 6-8 million people the few miles mostly inside Germany and Poland. It was not physically possible that “millions of Jews” could have fled Europe in the amount of time available. A few 10s of 1000s, yes, millions? No. Don’t forget the war started September 1, 1939.

Not every American was anti-Jewish even in the 1940s. I grew up with Jewish neighbors in my lower class neighborhood. A mere 3 city blocks from Churchill Downs. We knew they were Jewish because they cooked kosher and we thought that odd. My sister and I attended school with their children but we did not “sleep over” or anything like that. OTOH, I never “slept over” with anyone.

It is true though, that many social clubs were not open to any Jewish persons, Catholics or Blacks. I was never a “joiner” but I’m pretty sure that is a practice of the past. It is still true though that the Rich and Famous do not welcome the poor and poorer. That is for sure.

The issue of the death camps was known to both FDR and Churchill, but the range of our B17 and Lancaster bombers was not enough to reach those places. And, what would you do if you could? We bombed the rail network every day but the Germans - often using slave labor - repaired the railroads by the next day. It was conceded the best thing we could do for the Jewish people was to defeat Hitler and the Nazis as soon as possible. I believe we did that.


[edit on 5/28/2006 by donwhite]

Originally posted by dbrandt
From what I have heard on the subject President Roosevelt had a warning of what was going to happen to the Jews and had the opportunity to bring millions of Jews out of Europe but didn't.

It's a shame that the world turned the other way and allowed a people to be almost exterminated.

Great topic...open the can of worms...you want to hear from not only a Jewish perspective, but from a Rabbinical source at the time saying that this did not have to happen?

www.jewsagainstzionism.com...

enjoy...

peace

dalen


edit: here are quotes from rabbis against zionism...which (zionism) in the article above, is listed as one of the reasons for what happened in WWII. (Interestingly enough, mainstream evangelical Christian organizations seem to tend to align themselves to zionism...the populace unaware, but from what I have experienced the top of some of the places are no more than zionist with the added label Christian. (It is as it is I suppose)

www.jewsagainstzionism.com...

[edit on 29-5-2006 by dAlen]

Strange times when even the Pope himself makes comments which put "gods" omnipotence in question.

personally i'dd say : Good question pope but...

I'm wondering WHY the Pope is just now bringing this up. Did he just realize this while visiting Auschwitz or did he intentionally plan to start questioning the entire logic of religion today?


....makes me wonder .....Can you excommunicate the pope for blasphemy?

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
Is he blaming ...

No. It was actually rather beautifully said.
He said that the horror of the place left him at at a loss for words and
that only his heart could cry out to God because there were no human
words that could fit what he felt and wanted to pray. Very beautiful.

As far as your comments about him being 'silent' during the Nazi
time ... he was just a teenager.

And as far as what the pope of that time did or didn't do .. there
are plenty of statements and historical facts about what he did.
He didn't help the Nazis and he didn't turn a blind eye. The Vatican
DID help captureed Americans soldiers escape to freedom.

www.catholic.com...


[edit on 5/30/2006 by FlyersFan]

He said that the horror of the place left him at at a loss for words and
that only his heart could cry out to God because there were no human
words that could fit what he felt and wanted to pray. Very beautiful.

I read it, yaknow....

You didn't mention the one part that made me question the statement, so I've got to assume that you didn't read my post, along with the bolded selection about God remaining silent - which is what I took issue with.

If he had shown up and simply said, "Words fail, in this place of horror." We wouldn't be here, on this thread, talking about his comments.

As far as your comments about him being 'silent' during the Nazi
time ... he was just a teenager.

So? When I was a teenager, there was a group of kids in my school who went around beating people up for no apparent reason. I was big and mean enough to join them, but I didn't - why? I was only a teenager after all, I couldn't possibly have known right from wrong...

He didn't help the Nazis and he didn't turn a blind eye.

Why were the Nazi leaders not excommunicated? Why was there no public condemnation of the racist Nazi policy that led to the death camps? Could it be because the RCC has traditionally been the ultimate font of hatred for the Jews? Remember, church officials were BBQing Jews before Hitler was a twinkle in his father's eye... His persecution of the Jews would not have been possible if not for the centuries-old foundation of distrust and libel built up by the RCC and its agents (and of course by a number of individuals and groups that were in no way connected to the official church heirarchy, but they're not the subject of discussion)

I know the history of the time is complicated, and often contradictory, and I'm open to learning all I can about what went down. I just want to understand what the Pope meant, when he said "why, God, did you remain silent?"

That's what this thread is about, primarily.

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
So? When I was a teenager, there was a group of kids in my school who went around beating people up for no apparent reason. I was big and mean enough to join them, but I didn't - why? I was only a teenager after all, I couldn't possibly have known right from wrong...

And did that group of kids imply that you and your family would suffer greatly if you didn't join? Did that group of kids show you by example that your father would lose his job, your family probably lose their house, and possibly all of you sent to a labor camp as political prisioners if you didn't join them?



What was wrong with my answer to what the pope meant?

And did that group of kids imply that you and your family would suffer greatly if you didn't join?

I did get jumped by six of them, actually. I took my beating and I'm glad I did. Given the choice between taking a beating from scumbags, and becoming a scumbag, the choice is clear (for me at least).

Did that group of kids show you by example that your father would lose his job, your family probably lose their house, and possibly all of you sent to a labor camp as political prisioners if you didn't join them?

I see what you're getting at, but I don't find it to be an acceptable excuse. Standing up for what's right often means suffering, it's almost unavoidable. Sometimes we have to make decisions that compromise the comfort and safety of our families, for the greater good - it's the curse of responsibility.

If the vast majority of Germans had seen the truth, behind the veil of manipulation, and refused to cooperate with the regime, in spite of threats and intimidation, the holocaust would not have happened. The majority of people were too weak to resist, and look what happened - millions of innocent lives snuffed out.

Tyranny cannot thrive except in the absence of outrage and courage (all hail the 'rage' suffix).

What was wrong with my answer to what the pope meant?

Sorry dude, I wasn't trying to snub you. I just had to think about your comment a little before answering.

The notion that bad things are a part of God's plan appeals to me, personally, but it's not a justification for human frailty. That sort of defense is acceptable when it comes to things like flaming rocks from the sky, and tidal waves, and plague outbreaks, but you can't smack your mother around and dig up the neighbor's daffy-dills, then turn around and say "God works in mysterious ways."

God doesn't need to speak for men to do the right thing. We have the ability to choose our path, and we have the responsibility for where our decisions take us...

What would Christianity be, if not for the example set by Christ? He disobeyed, at the risk of torture and death, not just for him, but also his followers and their families. The J-Man knew what he was doing, when he flicked off the elders and the romans, and flew in the face of social conventions. He could have saved lives by taking a less confrontational position, by appeasing the tyrants, but that's not right, is it? No, it isn't, it never has been, and it never will be.

For some, death is preferable to dishonor...

Whether that's an advancement, or a serious evolutionary error, I don't know. I do know that it makes us special. An animal will sacrifice itself for its young in some cases, but it's because of a biological imperative, to preserve the bloodline. On the other hand, some humans will sacrifice themselves for the sake of others to whom they have no relation, and that's really something.

It makes us pretty poor as animals go, but redeemable as human beings...

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
I read it, yaknow....

You are being too sensitive. OF COURSE I know you read it.
So did I. And I thought how he expressed his feelings was beautifully done.
Obviously you see a problem with his statement whereas I don't.

I've got to assume that you didn't read my post,

You assume wrong. And again you are being too sensitive.

If he had shown up and simply said ...

He was moved to say things in a certain way. It's just that simple.
You are looking for an exact statement said in a certain way;
which isn't how people express themselves.

there was a group of kids in my school

The deadly Nazi nation is different from just a bunch of bullies in your school.
It was good that you didn't join in with them, but you had avenues to do so.
In Nazi Germany, teenagers HAD TO join the party. The parents signed them
up. Those that didn't ... didn't go to school and many ended up dead. His
parents, like all the others, signed him up. Everyone did it. It was wrong
.. but it was out of his hands anyways.

As for the 'death before dishonor' statement you made; that's wonderful.
BUT .. not everyone is moved to that level of bravery and integrity. And
definately not many teenagers are.

Could it be because the RCC has traditionally been the
ultimate font of hatred for the Jews?

Hardly.

I just want to understand what the Pope meant,
when he said "why, God, did you remain silent?"
That's what this thread is about, primarily.

EVERYONE on the planet who believes in God wonders why
He allows certain bad things to happen. We all know that we
have been taught that it's God's Holy or Permitting Will and
that He's in control and it's all for a reason ... but we all still
wonder WHY. The pope does too. He's human afterall.
And I think he expressed himself in a beautiful way.

The Pope can tell you exactly what he ment by it. So
why don't you just email the vatican and ask. You can post
the response here on this thread for all to see. That way you
won't have to deal with any speculation that you disagree with.


[edit on 5/30/2006 by FlyersFan]

Here -

www.msnbc.msn.com...

Benedict said it was almost impossible, particularly for a German Pope,
to speak at “the place of the Shoah.”

~ snip ~

Benedict, one of the Church’s leading theologians, said humans could not “peer
into God’s mysterious plan” to understand such evil, but only “cry out humbly yet
insistently to God—rouse yourself! Do not forget mankind, your creature!”

- He said it was hard for him to be able to speak due to the emotion of the place.
- He was moved to ask 'where was God?'.
- Then he said that we can't understand God's plans but have to keep
crying out to God for help.

He's just like most humans who believe in God.
This is what many of us are moved to feel and say.
That's all there is to it.


[edit on 5/30/2006 by FlyersFan]

You are being too sensitive.

That's entirely possible.

His parents, like all the others, signed him up. Everyone did it.

Not everyone...

Lots of people left the country rather than be an accessory to the madness, others went underground, others joined the opposition party and got beat up and evicted and all the rest.

It's unfair to the individuals to say they had no choice. We've always got choices...

Do you always have this problem with people who don't see things the
same way that you do? Rolling eyes and making silly statements?

Well, the eye rolling is to let people know that I'm not being serious, when I say _____(whatever). Without the sarcasm smiley, people might mistake what I said for my actual opinion sans sarcasm. Silly statements? What's that about? How is the statement silly? My point is valid, IMO, that teenagers are perfectly capable of discerning right from wrong (given a decent upbringing).

So if you don't like listening to what others think of the popes statement ... then perhaps
you shouldn't have asked what we thought it ment.

What on earth gave you the impression that I don't like listening to what others think, just because I disagree with it? Now who's being over-sensitive?

only the Pope can tell you exactly what he ment by it. So
why don't you just email the vatican and ask. You can post
the response here on this thread for all to see.

That's a good idea. I'll post the letter once it's composed, and the response on the thread, if/when I get one back.

That way you won't have to deal with any speculation that you disagree with.

That was just for you.



But seriously, disagreement does not have to equal anger or dislike or anything of the sort. I'm perfectly capable of arguing passionately against a position taken by a friend, and remaining friends - I think that's a pre-requisite for those wishing to engage in civilized discussion.

[edit on 30-5-2006 by WyrdeOne]

James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
Silly statements? What's that about?

I changed my mind on that and edited it out, but not quickly
enough I see ... it wasn't the right thing to say. Sorry you
saw that. (It was an emotional response that I removed)

Now who's being over-sensitive?

Yep. Ya' got me on that one.

I am looking forward to seeing if you get a response.
I posted the MSNBC link that kinda explains things,
much as I thought it would be. But perhaps the Vatican
has something different. Good luck.

Ratzinger can't be held responsible for being in the hitler youth, everyone was inducted into the nazi system, that was the nazi plane for the "Total State", the work/death camps were a prelude of what the nazi total state would be.

As far as saying 'why god why!', its a natural enough thing to question. It also shows a weak dependence on cloud riding deities. What would god have actually done? Materialized at the League of Nations and demand that everyone attack the nazis? Send the "Creeping Death" to kill the Fuhrer's firstborns? Make the Rhine run red with blood?

Usually when people say that god is talkign to them, they are speaking about it beign via prayer (short of ecstatic visions). We can wonder if perhaps he is saying 'god, why didn't you tell me in my prayers that this was wrong or to do something'. Or perhaps, since the office of the papacy is the 'organ' through which divine will is supposed to be revealed to the RCC, he questions why god didn't tell the pope at the time this through his prayers, or even why he didn't tell Hitler, since Hitler was a Catholic.

Originally posted by Nygdan
Hitler was a Catholic.

Yup. At one point he wanted to be a priest.
Gotta' wonder what happened? How he could
go from being a Catholic who wanted to be
a priest and serve God; to the evil thing that
he became.

www.nobeliefs.com...

Hitler claimed to be a Catholic right up to the end.
The things he did both in the secular world and in
religious areas should have had him excommunicated.
He more than dabbled in the occult and he embraced
much of Luthers teachings. I read that he took
Nostradamus' 'prophecies' and did some reworking of
them to make it sound like Nostradamus had prophecied
Hitler and Germanys world dominance.

Perhaps the fact that he sent hundreds of thousands of
Catholics, many of them priests and nuns, to the death
camps scared those in the church who should have
done the excommunicating. They failed at a human
level as well as a spiritual level.