What if Adam Said "No"?

a reply to: Sookiechacha
I have to say that the title of this thread made me think the meat of the OP was going to be something else.

Honestly, I was thinking that if Adam had said no the true power of free will would have been shown since it would have shown that a man's choice could thwart god's plan.

That is not to say I don't appreciate your OP. If I'm reading it correctly, you are saying that this funhouse was never really meant to be fun.

a reply to: Ahabstar

There are only two talking animals: the Serpent in Genesis to Eve and Balaam‘s donkey in Numbers to Balaam.

I don't think it was the animals of the garden that seduced, ravaged and ravished Eve. Once she gave her consent, I think it was the Nephilim. or the "others".

The ability to talk to all the animals isn't really crucial to the story, but Eve didn't seem surprised to be able to converse with the Serpent, and God told Adam to name the animals, I would suppose so that he could call them.

a reply to: daskakik

Honestly, I was thinking that if Adam had said no the true power of free will would have been shown since it would have shown a man's choice could thwart god's plan.

You think that If Adam had obeyed God, and refused to partake of the forbidden fruit with Eve, he would have foiled God's plan for The Fall? I think that's some twisted stuff.

...you are saying that this funhouse was never really meant to be fun.

Indeed. That is what I'm saying.

originally posted by: Sookiechacha
a reply to: Ahabstar

There are only two talking animals: the Serpent in Genesis to Eve and Balaam‘s donkey in Numbers to Balaam.

I don't think it was the animals of the garden that seduced and ravished Eve. Once she gave her consent, I think it was the Nephilim. or the "others".

The ability to talk to all the animals isn't really crucial to the story, but Eve didn't seem surprised to be able to converse with the Serpent, and God told Adam to name the animals, I would suppose so that he could call them.

What if one of the 'others' knew how to throw his/her voice and it only sounded as if it was coming from the animal on the tree?

originally posted by: Sookiechacha
You think that If Adam had obeyed God, and refused to partake of the forbidden fruit with Eve, he would have foiled God's plan for The Fall? I think that's some twisted stuff.

But it makes sense. Religious folk say things are the way they are because it is "all" part of god's plan. Things would have been different if Adam had said no. In other words, different than god's plan, for better or worse, although it seems the main plot is that we would all have been born into paradise instead of this place.

Indeed. That is what I'm saying.

That is also what I mean by the first part of this post.

a reply to: daskakik

Religious folk say things are the way they are because it is "all" part of god's plan. Things would have been different if Adam had said no.

Right.

But I'm saying that things are the way they are because Adam did say "No". That's why we have a Christ/Messiah myth/story, because Adam said "No". So that someone sober from the outside to come in and save mankind. Mankind is always looking for a hero.

God's plan could have been contingent, based on whether or not either of them succumbed to temptation. But I believe the big guy would have hoped that at least one of them would say "No", so there could be a hero in one of them.

a reply to: Sookiechacha

That is also a part of gnostic and other esoteric texts. That Eve consented to nephilim or a fallen angel that was disguised as the Serpent and that union produced Cain. That he was only a half brother to Abel because Cain was not Adam’s.


But the key elements are the ending that he would forever bruise her head and she would forever bruise his heel. Meaning she would never be satisfied and therefore push him to produce more and never be content.

The logo for Apple Inc. is an apple with a bite out of it. Coincidence or conspiracy? I'm going with evil conspiracy! a reply to: Sookiechacha

a reply to: Ahabstar

But the key elements are the ending that he would forever bruise her head and she would forever bruise his heel. Meaning she would never be satisfied and therefore push him to produce more and never be content.

That's not how it's written.

Genesis 3:14
So the Lord God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this,

“Cursed are you above all livestock
and all wild animals!
You will crawl on your belly
and you will eat dust
all the days of your life.
15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring[a] and hers;
he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel.”

This is said to the Serpent, not to Eve.

originally posted by: Sookiechacha
a reply to: rickymouse

I think there is something in the Bible about there is nothing worse than a woman's scorn.

No, this phrase is not in the Bible. This saying originates from The Mourning Bride, a tragic play by English playwright William Congreve from 1697. The whole line actually reads “Heaven has no rage like love to hatred turned, Nor hell a fury like a woman scorned.”

www.crosswalk.com...

Seriously though, It wasn't that long ago that a husband could have his wife locked away for hysteria.

Proverbs 21-9 and Proverbs 21-19

Those phrases later on you were talking about were alterations of the bibles earlier similar version.

Also, Different bible versions translated what was said differently too. Verses are often different between different kinds of bibles. Some bibles use wilderness, some use rooftops, some use desert as the location...there are also updates as to the meanings in newer bibles to match the times throughout history.

originally posted by: Sookiechacha
But I'm saying that things are the way they are because Adam did say "No".

I get that but you also seem to be saying that since "real Adam" said no, a "fake Adam", that would say yes, was put in their place. Free will be damned, the plan must go on, which obviously puts the idea of free will in question.

God's plan could have been contingent, based on whether or not either of them succumbed to temptation. But I believe the big guy would have hoped that at least one of them would say "No", so there could be a hero in one of them.

Seems to me that the theory you put in the OP is that the plan was for both to say yes, and replace either, or both of them if they said no, so the plan would go how he wanted.

a reply to: 80DegreesandSunny

What about snow-white?

a reply to: Terpene

She didn't waste her life being part of a conspiracy.

Would have also unequivocably proven the existance of the Gay gene.

I like this take on it. What if Adam and Eve actually obeyed god?

Thanks for the chuckles sir ! Great topic here OP and this does force one to think. I really don't have much to add here other than to recommend the audio version of Good Omens because it is one of the best that I have ever heard. The movie IMO did not get the books main theme across as well as it should have. Basically the point being that as humans we are kind of spectators here I guess. I do not want to say too much but it is a great listen. a reply to: AtomicKangaroo

a reply to: daskakik

I get that but you also seem to be saying that since "real Adam" said no, a "fake Adam", that would say yes, was put in their place. Free will be damned, the plan must go on, which obviously puts the idea of free will in question.

I'm not suggesting that Adam's free will was usurped. I'm suggesting that Eve, having consented to what she couldn't have known know, and being under the influence of the forbidden fruit was deceived into believing that Adam came with her. Not that Adam's spirit was strung up like a puppet and forced to do something against his will. I'm suggesting they were separated, but Eve was not aware that Adam was gone, because she was hypnotized into believing the imposter that had been provided for her was Adam, immediately turning her into an adulteress.

I'm suggesting Eve was promised the world, if only she would bow down to fake Adam. Unwittingly, she said "Sure" and now we have fake Popes, pretending to be representatives of Christ. We have kings declaring themselves divine in their right to rule.

originally posted by: Sookiechacha
a reply to: daskakik

Religious folk say things are the way they are because it is "all" part of god's plan. Things would have been different if Adam had said no.

Right.

But I'm saying that things are the way they are because Adam did say "No". That's why we have a Christ/Messiah myth/story, because Adam said "No". So that someone sober from the outside to come in and save mankind. Mankind is always looking for a hero.

God's plan could have been contingent, based on whether or not either of them succumbed to temptation. But I believe the big guy would have hoped that at least one of them would say "No", so there could be a hero in one of them.

So it may have been that God had a Plan A & B?

a reply to: quintessentone

Maybe.

Maybe, if Adam had succumbed to the seduction and Eve had said "No", we'd be looking for a woman to come and save us. The imposter would have been a fake Eve, and mankind would be serving a matriarch rather than a patriarch. But the reality would still be same mix of good and evil.

I'm suggesting that our history, myths and folklore of damsels in distress and females being blamed for The Fall of Mankind, seems to me to point to Adam's absence.

originally posted by: Sookiechacha
a reply to: quintessentone

Maybe.

Maybe, if Adam had succumbed to the seduction and Eve had said "No", we'd be looking for a woman to come and save us. The imposter would have been a fake Eve, and mankind would be serving a matriarch rather than a patriarch. But the reality would still be same mix of good and evil.

I'm suggesting that our history, myths and folklore of damsels in distress and females being blamed for The Fall of Mankind, seems to me to point to Adam's absence.

Eve was created as Adam's companion but with the same characteristics as God and with the same responsibilities for the continuation of creation, right? So, to me, it seems they are equal because nowhere does God say Adam has dominion over her, so I don't see Eve as being in a distressed situation. Just free will and probably curiosity in play here. So would mankind have fallen if Eve was the only one eating the fruit? I just read where Adam disbelieved the creature/'other' explaining that the fruit was okay to eat no harm would befall them, but he decided to eat the fruit anyway. How does this act by the both of them put the blame on Eve. Well, which gender wrote scripture old and new?