Do even simple lifeforms such as insects or spiders have consciousness?

a reply to: vonclod

I was always told its bad luck to hurt a spider.

I even try to return flies/bees/hornets/wasps back outdoors, short of the dog spotting them first for a snack.

I think a Tarantula would have me atop the curtain pole. LoL

No harm to them all the same.

originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: vonclod

I was always told its bad luck to hurt a spider.

I even try to return flies/bees/hornets/wasps back outdoors, short of the dog spotting them first for a snack.

I think a Tarantula would have me atop the curtain pole. LoL

No harm to them all the same.

So they say, step on a spider and it will rain..lol

I always put them out side as well..mosquito's get no mercy though!! The tarantulas look scary but pretty much harmless. I have been keeping them on and off for 30 years..funny thing, house spiders creep me out, but tarantulas not at all

a reply to: nononsense35

Ummm... yeah, you are kind of getting it.


God, intelligent design.

Consciousness has to be limited by brain size and complexity. We have alot of it because we have massively evolved, intricate brains with all of those cells in it.

The simpler the creature, the simpler the consciousness of it.

One interesting theory I have is that dogs and cats definitely have free will; therefore other creatures with similarly sized brains do too. Dogs and cats will play for fun, do things out of boredom, come see you because they want to come see you. In their brains, thoughts are being formed and processed of an independent nature just like us. They think to some degree and will just be like, I feel like going and doing something. Lets go check this room out or see master, play with some object. It doesn't always have to be reward motivated but usually is, just like us not surprisingly. Even reading a book is reward based. Can you ask yourself what actions you take that aren't motivated by some form of reward? Things you have to do like chores? But even then, the reward is having clean dishes to eat off of or fresh clothes. Being able to be comfortable is a reward.

When you get into things like insects though, they obviously don't function like that. They have to learn somehow for survival though, because I've noticed for example that older, more developed insects are harder to kill. Lets look at roaches. Ever had those smaller, younger roaches? They're much easier to ambush and smash. The bigger ones are much harder to get. Is it because they learned from surviving attempts on their life before? Or is it because they reached maturity so all of their DNA storage was unlocked?

Its funny, you say you don't believe in God. Yet you are starting to realise something, that most religious folk, never will never realize.

The eye with which I see God is the same with which God sees me. My eye and God's eye is one eye, and one sight, and one knowledge, and one love. Meister Eckhart

That eye Eckhart spoke about is conciseness. The question is not whether God exists. But do we?

a reply to: nononsense35
You don't develop consciousness.
Are you aware of what is occuring?
Are you seeing and knowing the environment without even thinking about it?
Sounds and sensations cannot appear unless you are conscious.

Thoughts appear in consciousness and so do spiders....and thoughts about spiders.

It's all just a mystery......an awesome beautiful mystery.

I've been wondering lately. I mean...even a flea or the tiniest worm tries to preserve its life. Pick a flea off your pet and toss it in something that will kill it...it will struggle mightily.

I am in a #ty living situation atm and I keep a crop of spiders to combat the flying cooties that come with living in an in-law apartment attached to a hoarder house...and I constantly have the most adorable little specks of spiders visiting me. I swear I tell them that they need to stay up and away from my big blind dumbo human self so that I don't accidentally kill them...and they move right along- even in the direction I say! And for the pedants- no I am not saying that I can have conversations with bugs. Go for a walk or something.

I've been feeling super altruistic for the last while. I even threw fleas out the window recently rather than kill them. No- I'm not religious or a Jain

a reply to: nononsense35

originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: nononsense35
lifeforms such as insects or spiders are conscious, of there surroundings at least, but that does not make them in any way sentient in the same or similar manner to humans.

Indeed, I don't think that they're like humans. But I'm just wondering if they can "get access" to more than what they're equipped for. Like we are a laptop and they just an intelligent room thermostat in built-in capabilities, but both can get extra resources from the cloud to do something they haven't got on board.

Maybe I've been in contact with Internet technology for too long But so far it's the only explanation I can come up with for the cases described in my OP.

originally posted by: Macenroe82
a reply to: nononsense35
Well, I did a thread a few years back that you might find interesting Op.
It sort of disproved sciences answer for where consciousness was located in our minds.

Where is Consiousness located

Thanks, will read that when I have some free time.

originally posted by: FlyingSquirrel
Consciousness has to be limited by brain size and complexity. We have alot of it because we have massively evolved, intricate brains with all of those cells in it.

The simpler the creature, the simpler the consciousness of it.

That was how I always looked at it too. And maybe you can be right about consciousness, although we may never know. But, as described in the OP, I have the feeling that the capabilities of some of these creatures are hard to explain by their simple nervous systems. Just like those of my home speaker.

originally posted by: glend
Its funny, you say you don't believe in God. Yet you are starting to realise something, that most religious folk, never will never realize.

The eye with which I see God is the same with which God sees me. My eye and God's eye is one eye, and one sight, and one knowledge, and one love. Meister Eckhart

That eye Eckhart spoke about is conciseness. The question is not whether God exists. But do we?

Interesting, will read a bit about the guy.

And myself, I've evolved from being an atheist to a agnostic, when I realized that it's both arrogant and ignorant to claim that something doesn't exist while we don't have a clue how everything works. And it makes things a lot more interesting too.

originally posted by: Hushabye
I've been feeling super altruistic for the last while. I even threw fleas out the window recently rather than kill them. No- I'm not religious or a Jain

a reply to: nononsense35

We've had fleas in our house once, there's no excuse for not killing them! I think even a Jain will squash them if nobody is watching

a reply to: Brotherman

I have kept many bugs as "pets", and here are some weird observations.

A very chill chilean tarantula- I was staring it through the glass of her terrarium, then all of the sudden i got a feeling that there is no glass between us, right at that moment she did something she had never done before or after, she jumped right at my face, and hit the glass.

A brasilian pink bird eater- she was fun, every time i dropped feeder insects, i switched the spot, and she would always check these spots at random times, she would go through many of them on her walkabouts, so it was very obvious that she had a good memory.

A Deathstalker scorpion- his enclosure was made from glass, so he could not climb out, but the seams were silicone, he realized he could climb an inch before he would just fall at the bottom, but then one night when i was watching him, he just grabbed the silicone with his pincers, did not even use the legs at all, lifting himself up only using the pincers, all the way to the top of the enclosure. Had to get him a new and more secure enclosure after that. Showed very good learning and adaptation skills.

I think they are aware and have a consciousness .

a reply to: nononsense35

Look at it this way, do you imagine an ant can fathom all the little idiosyncrasies and actions of any Human it happens to observe?

My guess is probably not just down to its perspective.

Conversely, if you could somehow manage to send the right signals to an insect's brain, thus control its central nervous system, you could pretty make it do anything its appendages allow within the realms of reason.

Same with us humans.

originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: nononsense35

Look at it this way, do you imagine an ant can fathom all the little idiosyncrasies and actions of any Human it happens to observe?

My guess is probably not just down to its perspective.

Conversely, if you could somehow manage to send the right signals to an insect's brain, thus control its central nervous system, you could pretty make it do anything its appendages allow within the realms of reason.

Same with us humans.

Hmm.. I think the ants are too busy checking the system, like identifying mind controlling fungi that are always trying to sneak in the colony inside the workers, then they have to escort them in the quarantine zones where the soldiers execute the infected and commit suicide so they do not accidentally carry the fungi in to the colony.

That`s just one of the problems they have to deal 24-7, so maybe humans are not worth noting.

a reply to: solve

Ants have been around, and probably will be around, long after natures finished with us semi-intelligent monkeys.

Still does not mean they can understand anything other than there own environment and shape it to a limited capacity.

They are never going to write a sonnet or paint the Mona Lisa, build a rocket, and go to the Moon.

Then again if it ain't broke why try and fix it?

Different strokes for different folks.

originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: nononsense35

Conversely, if you could somehow manage to send the right signals to an insect's brain, thus control its central nervous system, you could pretty make it do anything its appendages allow within the realms of reason.

Same with us humans.

Absolutely, and there are experiments interfacing insect's brains to little robots.

What I can't understand is how insects can display behavior which isn't easy to explain by evolution or by their simple nervous systems, without anyone sending them the proper instructions. How can bees agree upon a common language, for instance? Or how can larvae express such complex behavior?

the only consciousness you can be certain of is your own.

Ha! Don't worry. If I were combing them off my pet they'd get dunked in killing solution.

They're impossible to get rid of where I live. It's disgusting. My little 300sqft in-law apt. is the only clean spot in the house- because of the home owners filth and hoarding, there's just a bubonic amount of fleas and mites here no matter how hard I try. I'm trying really hard to get us out of here.


a reply to: nononsense35

All Life has consciousness.