Why the sacrifice had to occur

a reply to: Dcopymope
You believe that you are in control but there is nothing separate that has control........everything is happening as one.
The One is God.

The field is the sole governing agency of the particle.

originally posted by: Dcopymope
1. If God only wanted Adam and Eve to eat from the tree of life, why bother planting the tree of the knowledge of good and evil to start with, especially knowing they were going to disobey since he is omniscient?

Giving us responsibility out of love and respect. If you have a child, you would probably wish that they not become a drug addict. You don't however keep them chained up in the basement their whole life so that they can't; you let them live their lives and hope they make good choices, knowing anyway that some of the choices they make won't be ideal and may harm them.

originally posted by: Dcopymope
This is the true reason why Jesus was sent, to eradicate the knowledge of good and evil

I would disagree - my explanation is this:
So that we can relate to God through his life. Had he not, we could easily say "Well, it's easy for God to tell us to do this or that, he hasn't had to suffer like us!" The purpose of his appearance was that he suffer as a human does. Temptation, physical pain, anxiety, betrayal, people not believing in him as a person, etc. His existence bridged a gap.

originally posted by: Sabrechucker
a reply to: Dcopymope
S&F for a thoughtful thread but..we haven't a clue

We've all played that campfire game in which..Person 1 whispers to person 2 "Bumble Bee Tuna" and it's relayed onto 20 more people. Person 20 say's the original word was Swordfish, And that's just 20 people. We can't possible pretend what was "meant" thousands of years ago.

I've been studying the bible and have discovered that it isn't the words we need to necessarily pay attention to, but the underlying spiritual concepts. Only paying attention to the words leads to confusion and misunderstanding, and there are many mistranslations throughout the bible versions. For example, "day" in Genesis comes from the original word "yom", meaning a period of time, not a literal day; "kill" comes from the original word "ratsach", so when you see "thou shalt not kill", "kill" here is incorrect, and it should rather say "thou shalt not murder".
Of course the words will change over time. This isn't important. The reason the books of the bible are called the "inspired word of God" isn't because of the words themselves, but the underlying spiritual concepts.

originally posted by: dfnj2015
It's not that Christians are persecuted. The problem with Christianity is a psychological one. Friedrich Nietzsche had some acute criticisms of Christianity. He said Christianity was born in response to Roman oppression. It took hold in the minds of timid slaves who did not have the courage or strength to take what they really wanted. The slaves could not admit to their own failings. So they clung to a philosophy that made virtue of cowardice. Everything the Christians wanted and wished they had in their lives for fulfillment was considered to be a sin. A position in the world, prestige, good sex, intellectual mastery, personal wealth were too difficult or beyond their reach. The Christian slaves created a hypocritical creed denouncing what they really wanted but were incapable of achieving while praising what they did not want was being virtuous. So in the Christian value system sexlessness turned into 'purity', weakness became "goodness," submission to authority became "obedience," and in Nietzsche's words, "not-being-able-take-revenge" turned into "forgiveness." A Christian slave was too weak to have any personal voice and was only capable of bending a knee to whoever was in authority. We have to balance submission to authority with a healthy self-esteem and confidence in our own inner authority.

Blind obedience to authority gives rise to people like Hitler who pretend to be God on Earth.

a philosophy that made virtue of cowardice

Cowardice is not virtuous in Christianity.

A position in the world, prestige, good sex, intellectual mastery, personal wealth

These aren't sins. Pride, lust, greed are. You can have all of the above things without pride, lust or greed. Having loving sex with your wife is much different than lustfully having sex with random women or prostitutes, causing unwanted pregnancies and getting diseases.

in the Christian value system sexlessness turned into 'purity'

The Christian value system does not exclude sex. There is nothing wrong with sex. In fact, God wants us to enjoy it.

weakness became "goodness,"

Wrong - you are confusing "weakness" with "meekness", which means not causing unnecessary conflict or being unnecessarily aggressive. If someone breaks into my house, splattering their brain across the wall to protect myself won't be a sin.

submission to authority became "obedience,"

17 Then Jesus said to them, “Give back to Caesar what is Caesar’s and to God what is God’s.”
We are never expected to be blindly obedient to human authority, merely to respect authority unless that authority conflicts with God's will. For example, we should pay our taxes and obey common-sense laws; but if some dictator tells us to go out in the streets and kill everyone we see, this is to be disobeyed, obviously.

originally posted by: dfnj2015
So Jesus did not really die. No harm, no foul. You can't be resurrected if you never really were dead in the first place.

His physical body died. This is no different than saying "we can't really die, because we have souls". Our bodies can still suffer and die.

originally posted by: dfnj2015
Christianity has way too much goofy logic to be true. The Bible had to be written by men because of all the errors and crazy stuff.

I thought so too until I started studying it. I used to think it was idiotic really. I actually have a huge upside-down cross tattoo. Yes, there are translational errors and nonsensical things, like the idea that two of every animal on Earth was put onto a giant wooden boat. These things, however, are unimportant. You have to look past the human words and into the spiritual concepts being relayed. The idea of the boat in and of itself may be stupid, but it is relaying an important concept. There are many messages hidden behind the words for people who truly wish to see them.

originally posted by: dfnj2015
There is only true all-power all-loving God. And that God is God. There is only one God. And that God is God.

Correct. The idea of the trinity is confusing, but you could perhaps think of it as saying that you have a body, a soul, and a will. Your body is you; your soul is you; and your will is you. In the same way, Jesus is God, the Father is God, and the Holy Spirit is God.

originally posted by: stormson
a reply to: Dcopymope

was jesus really a sacrifice?

usually a sacrifice is something you give up, never to get it again. thats not what jesus did.

if jesus was god, then he knew he wouldnt stay dead. he gave up nothing. no sacrifice.

if i give up coffee for 3 days, knowing that i will get coffee after that, did i sacrifice coffee? no.

Semantics. It can just as easily be said that you did sacrifice having coffee for those three days.

a reply to: Dcopymope
About eighteen months ago, I did my own thread series on salvation through the death of Christ.
I won't interfere with yours, but I will mention a couple of points where the usual language causes confusion.

Firstly, "knowing good and evil" does NOT mean "knowing that good and evil exist". The command not to eat from the tree had already told them that there was a difference between right and wrong. I think it's a Hebraism for "claiming to know, or claiming to define, the boundary line between good and evil". In other words, deciding for themselves what is right and wrong. In other words, following their own judgement instead of God's. That makes it easier to see how it makes them "like God", why it cannot be allowed, and how the disobedience of eating the fruit is such an apt symbol of what it represents.

Also, since some people jib at the word "sacrifice", I tend to call it a "self-offering" instead. This means the same thing theologically, but gets away from the private definitions of "sacrifice" that they might be using. I think that what the Father wanted from Jesus was not so much the death itself, as his obedience even to the point of death.

originally posted by: Sabrechucker
a reply to: Dcopymope

I'll agree to that but, what is good and what is evil still remains a mystery to me.

Jesus answered this clearly in my opinion at the sermon on the mount.
Love is good, if you sin motivated by love compassion then “ Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins.”

Jesus taught love, in your heart, if your motivation is love, it can’t be evil, even if you get it wrong

originally posted by: GBP/JPY
man, nice....nicely written.

God had no choice....the devils bargain....

lately this what's in mind alot. Why was blood needed..



god wants the matter overwith, huh.....120 years to finish dealing with man...120 Jubilees about complete

God doesn’t need blood, Christ forgave many people before His death
Blood was what mankind understood, God used Jesus so we can understand the depth of Gods love. Jesus died so we could understand what God was willing to do to show how much He loved us.

God never needed blood, God loves, desires relationship, wants to forgive, we doubt not Him

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: Sabrechucker
a reply to: Dcopymope

I'll agree to that but, what is good and what is evil still remains a mystery to me.

Jesus answered this clearly in my opinion at the sermon on the mount.
Love is good, if you sin motivated by love compassion then “ Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins.”

Jesus taught love, in your heart, if your motivation is love, it can’t be evil, even if you get it wrong

The Beatitudes are more about the consequences of how we behave and experience the present whcih is different than the way most Christians live their lives. I think most Christians are more obsessed with praising Jesus, being a fan of Jesus, saying the magic words of Jesus, for the purpose of being rewarded in the afterlife. I think the fandom part of Christianity and treating Jesus and the words of the Bible like little idols is the wrong approach.

I think most Christians are Jesus idol worshipers. Christians do not silently live the teaching of Christ. People are more vocal than anything. What Christ taught is secondary. Modern Christianity is way too evangelical in nature. It's more like a club or people being united like a group of people rooting for an NFL football team.

It seems empty and hollow to me devoid of any true meaning in terms of spirituality.

a reply to: Dcopymope

In other words, "why did God allow the fall to occur?" is the question. I posted another thread about this subject before long ago, but I really wasn't satisfied with it, so I'm giving it another shot. Often, people end up going around the block to cross the street even though the answer is sitting right in front of their faces starting from the very beginning of the book. When speaking about the death and resurrection of Jesus, the true reason as to exactly why he had to be sacrificed is often overlooked in relation to the garden of Eden. There is a very good reason why the tree is called the "knowledge of good and evil".

Jesus makes it very clear that transgression against the law actually starts in the heart, not in action. The law says thou shalt not do this or that, but Jesus takes it even further from simply "doing" what is forbidden, to also thinking of doing what is forbidden, in your mind. From Gods point of view, you already sinned the moment you even thought about it. This explains why Satan already sinned the moment "iniquity was found within him", according to Ezekiel.

Reminds me of a certain Satanic figure in modern literature. You might have heard of a man named Goldstein.

Crimestop means the faculty of stopping short, as though by instinct, at the threshold of any dangerous thought. It includes the power of not grasping analogies, of failing to perceive logical errors, of misunderstanding the simplest arguments if they are inimical to Ingsoc, and of being bored or repelled by any train of thought which is capable of leading in a heretical direction. Crimestop, in short, means protective stupidity.

This is the true reason why Jesus was sent, to eradicate the knowledge of good and evil, and it should be the basis for answering all of the more difficult questions people often ask, because I personally don’t see any other way to answer them convincingly. Assuming God decided not to plant the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, the only thing that would have done was postpone what God already knew was inevitable. The fall, or the knowledge of sin cropping up within Adam and Eve was going to happen regardless if there was a tree or not. We can know this for sure because the fall already occurred in heaven with Satan, and it doesn’t put the blame on a tree for his fall into iniquity. This also addresses the second question. Could God have started over with another Adam, Eve and new earth? Sure, but I am 100% certain that God wouldn’t have allowed things to continue as they were if he actually had a choice.

Yes, I said it, God didn’t have a choice in the matter, because the truth is, the whole creation is doomed without Jesus. I can appease the Hebrew Israelite/old testament only folks and take Jesus out of the picture for the sake of the hypothetical. We now only have old testament history, and perhaps revelation, minus Jesus. God judges every soul and destroys the old earth for a new heaven, earth and new Jerusalem. Those whose names were in the book of life are once again made sinless, or “perfect in thy ways” like Satan was, or “good” like Adam and Eve was. We can even take it a step further and say that God rewards all those in the book of life with the much vaunted “glorified body”, that contrary to popular opinion has nothing to do with being made sinless, but everything to do with being made immortal like angels are.

You say "God is all powerful" and then follow it with "God cant stop it". Then why call him God? Why worship a creature who has no power to prevent bad decisions?

Now understanding this, what exactly did God achieve in this hypothetical scenario? Was the knowledge of sin addressed by him simply creating a new earth and granting you immortality? The truth is it wouldn’t have accomplished a damn thing. Sooner or later, the knowledge of sin would have corrupted the creation in the new earth yet again. God did not need a tree of life for Adam and Eve to live forever, because he could have created them immortal like the angels in heaven from the get go if he really wanted to.

The reason why he didn’t is simple, he knew the future and he planned accordingly, God is not a moron. This is the crucial point of doctrine that the old testament only crowd and many Christians alike are not getting. When the Bible speaks of the “regeneration”, it is not really referring to you personally becoming sinless in this life, but is in fact referring to the end times creation of a new heaven and earth, and the old earth passing away along with sin, never again coming to mind, keyword being mind. None of this would be possible without Jesus, because he is the "regeneration", it is only his resurrection that truly makes everything new. When people understand this, they will begin to see just how profound his death and resurrection really was.

So the real question here is, who wrote the future that God executed? Because if he is unable to change the design, that suggests the design was never his. A greater force is in play here if you are right. God is not the highest of the high. A decoy? An impostor? A usurper? A myth? Who is the real "architect" and what is their real game? Nothing about this story makes sense.

This is the true reason why Jesus was sent, to eradicate the knowledge of good and evil, and it should be the basis for answering all of the more difficult questions people often ask, because I personally don’t see any other way to answer them convincingly. Assuming God decided not to plant the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, the only thing that would have done was postpone what God already knew was inevitable. The fall, or the knowledge of sin cropping up within Adam and Eve was going to happen regardless if there was a tree or not.

So it was all a coverup to disguise his biggest failure. He couldnt save his children from his own clever pets. I notice you didnt mention the snake at all, the serpent in the garden. Pretty sure that thing was one of his little toys that just happened to be in the right place at the right time. Not a coincidence.

And for the record, there is no moral or ethical basis for torturing and executing an innocent man to save billions of innocent lives. To trade even a single life in that manner is to fail as a god. You become as dirty and haunted as every other champion who eventually met their limit and discovered that there is no such thing as a perfect hero.

originally posted by: TzarChasm
a reply to: Dcopymope

Reminds me of a certain Satanic figure in modern literature. You might have heard of a man named Goldstein.

Sure didn't

originally posted by: TzarChasmYou say "God is all powerful" and then follow it with "God cant stop it". Then why call him God? Why worship a creature who has no power to prevent bad decisions?

Your ability to make decisions had nothing at all to do with Jesus Christs mission on earth. The knowledge of sin goes far beyond the very basic, human understanding of someone simply making 'bad decisions'. If there is no knowledge that can possibly be gained of something, then there isn't any "decisions" to be made based on it to start with. There won't be a "decision" that someone makes at any point in the new heaven and earth for God to be concerned about "stopping" from happening, since the knowledge the decision came from won't exist. I wouldn't get too caught up in basic, human understanding of what "all powerful" means either. These are human concepts applied to a being that, unless described in the Bible, is far beyond anything we can conceive of in our created little world, with our little pea brains.

originally posted by: TzarChasmSo the real question here is, who wrote the future that God executed? Because if he is unable to change the design, that suggests the design was never his. A greater force is in play here if you are right. God is not the highest of the high. A decoy? An impostor? A usurper? A myth? Who is the real "architect" and what is their real game? Nothing about this story makes sense.

My answer to this is very simple, before God there was no God formed, neither shall there be after him. God may have designed his creation perfect and sinless, or "good" like him, but that doesn't make them impervious to sin like God. This is where Jesus comes in. He wasn't sent here to "change the design", because the work is finished and was perfectly fine as he designed it. The only thing Jesus was sent here to change when it comes down to it was our ability to gain the "knowledge of good and evil".

originally posted by: TzarChasmSo it was all a coverup to disguise his biggest failure. He couldnt save his children from his own clever pets. I notice you didnt mention the snake at all, the serpent in the garden. Pretty sure that thing was one of his little toys that just happened to be in the right place at the right time. Not a coincidence.

Every decision God makes is 100% intentional, so there was no mistake to be made to start with. He knew what the outcome would be because he knows the future. And there was no talking snake in the garden either, that "serpent" Genesis speaks of is quite plainly identified as Satan, who is not a snake, but an angelic being.

(Revelation 12:7-9) "And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, [8] And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. [9] And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

In other words, I in fact did mention Satan, multiple times where it mattered. Whether or not he was in the garden would not have stopped what was inevitable, so therefore it really doesn't matter. If there was no angel falling into iniquity first, it was happening eventually on earth regardless.

originally posted by: TzarChasmAnd for the record, there is no moral or ethical basis for torturing and executing an innocent man to save billions of innocent lives. To trade even a single life in that manner is to fail as a god. You become as dirty and haunted as every other champion who eventually met their limit and discovered that there is no such thing as a perfect hero.

You are not the standard of what is supposed to be "moral" and "ethical", God is, and that man who was sacrificed to save billions was not just a "man", he was the word made flesh, who was God, and was with God in the beginning. I can entertain the idea that he could have just randomly picked someone out of the crowd who was "perfect and upright" and feared God, like Job to be the sacrificial lamb. However, we know the sacrifice had to be without blemish, unleavened, or untainted, and there isn't a human on earth that could have possibly fit the bill. Why? its simple, because it was by Adam, one man that sin entered the world to start with, therefore, all have sinned and come short of God's glory.

(Romans 5:11-12) "And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement. [12] Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

(Romans 3:21-23) "But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; [22] Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: [23] For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;"

If Jesus died for our sins why 2000 years latter, is sin in this world, as strong as ever? Either God wants us to throw more children down the volcano or he doesn't accept sacrifice at all (Matthew 9:13 ... "I desire mercy, not sacrifice").

It really comes down to the point of sin. If you look Genesis 2.16 the hebrew word for "command" also means "charge", Given genesis 2.16 lists the charge for the act, then it clearly wasn't a command but a statement. God created a tree of knowledge so we can experience all dualities of good and evil through countless lives (we shall surely die). To experience enlightenment through our senses. This is why God created the tree. Everything has reason.

Of cause this interpretation wouldn't appeal to a christian church that wants to enforce compliance using guilt as a stick. Having people confess sins as little children to their clergy.

originally posted by: glend
If Jesus died for our sins why 2000 years latter, is sin in this world, as strong as ever?

Neither Jesus or any prophet ever said sin would suddenly disappear at his resurrection, but would in fact get even worse from there on in, especially in the last days. If you were expecting things to get better, well that's not how this deal works. Sin and the knowledge of it will persist for as long as this world exists. It will only cease to exist the day heaven and earth passes away and is replaced with a new one. This is also what is referred to as the "regeneration event", when everything is made new, which is only made possible because of Jesus.

(2 Peter 3:10-13) "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. [11] Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, [12] Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? [13] Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness."

If you are looking for righteousness in this world, it may or may not be out there, as nothing more than a needle in a haystack, so good luck. We believers are told to look elsewhere in the world to come.

a reply to: Dcopymope

Counter with scriptures, it's all good for reproof and its easy.

John 1:8
New King James Version
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Sin is a state of being. It's a carnal lust that never goes away, it can only be brought to heel through faith and commitment to Christ.

James says that we sin because ....
James 1:13-15
13When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He tempt anyone. 14But each one is tempted when by his own evil desires he is lured away and enticed. 15Then after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death

I agree as to what actually is good and evil and what makes it happy. Yeah there are certain thing in the Torah that are forbidden but Jesus abolishes it in New Testament like eating unclean animals... god created all therefore he created satan/little horn/devil/Lucifer/ every stinking bad thing thing and emotion that can be thought of or happen by his will alone. If he didn’t want something then he has imperfect judgement to make anything if he hadn’t the forethought to circumvent the things he doesn’t like. It’s all a shell game of right and wrong and wtf this dude actually is trying to achieve. a reply to: Sabrechucker

a reply to: Dcopymope

1. If God only wanted Adam and Eve to eat from the tree of life, why bother planting the tree of the knowledge of good and evil to start with, especially knowing they were going to disobey since he is omniscient?

2. Since Adam and Eve disobeyed God, why didn't he just destroy them and start over? Why didn't he do the same to Satan?

The big problem with this line of reasoning starts with the wrong premises contained in the above statements, as if they are proven, totally true and real things. And when the initial premises of any argument are not proven or wrong, then the whole discussion and its conclusions fall apart.

How do you know for sure that there was a special "tree of the knowledge of good and evil"?! Because the Bible says so?! The Bible was written by people and that part too, and people are known to distort the truth according to the given circumstances of that time and their intentions.

I'm not saying that the Bible (Old Testament) is *all* untrue, but certain parts of it are intentionally (or not) distorted.

What if these people made it all up? What if there was a tree, but its function was to only have some special *nutritional* properties to its users and nothing else unique? But people, being people, built a whole totally fake legend around it (?!) Just think about it -- someone eats a fruit and they magically learn about good and evil (?!!) It does not make sense.

I've read in a different place, that Adam and Eve were on this earth, when this planet was already populated, they used the tree for its special fruits beneficial to their special bodies, but nothing else. Eve didn't disobey God, she was tricked into doing something not contained in their plans to help this planet and Adam intentionally sinned to be with her and both got punished from God, but none the less they helped immensely this planet during their time here and at the end of their long lives they continued their journey in heavenly places. Their hugely helpful work did not go in vain.

Now, even though what I read in this book makes way better sense, I cannot vouch 100% for its veracity, but still that's the best that I have and I'm never a person to throw the baby with the bathwater.

As far as to your question -- why God didn't destroy Satan, I can say that things are never simple when it comes to angelic rebellions. We're talking about huge amount of angels, grace periods, certain levels of sin to get to and many many more other unknown reasons, which only some high angels know.

When it comes to such big and complicated subjects around God and His relationships with His children, simplifying things never helps.

Why call him a god, if he doesnt crush his Satans, see them driven before him, and to hear the lamentations of their woman...or men for Jesus camps.

a reply to: Dcopymope

Your ability to make decisions had nothing at all to do with Jesus Christs mission on earth. The knowledge of sin goes far beyond the very basic, human understanding of someone simply making 'bad decisions'. If there is no knowledge that can possibly be gained of something, then there isn't any "decisions" to be made based on it to start with. There won't be a "decision" that someone makes at any point in the new heaven and earth for God to be concerned about "stopping" from happening, since the knowledge the decision came from won't exist. I wouldn't get too caught up in basic, human understanding of what "all powerful" means either. These are human concepts applied to a being that, unless described in the Bible, is far beyond anything we can conceive of in our created little world, with our little pea brains.

That hasn't stopped you from making a clever thread to justify the brutal sacrifice of an innocent person who should never have been harmed (assuming the narrative is historically accurate). My logic is pea brained but yours is not? Lmao

My answer to this is very simple, before God there was no God formed, neither shall there be after him. God may have designed his creation perfect and sinless, or "good" like him, but that doesn't make them impervious to sin like God. This is where Jesus comes in. He wasn't sent here to "change the design", because the work is finished and was perfectly fine as he designed it. The only thing Jesus was sent here to change when it comes down to it was our ability to gain the "knowledge of good and evil".

Do I need to share this again?

Crimestop means the faculty of stopping short, as though by instinct, at the threshold of any dangerous thought. It includes the power of not grasping analogies, of failing to perceive logical errors, of misunderstanding the simplest arguments if they are inimical to Ingsoc, and of being bored or repelled by any train of thought which is capable of leading in a heretical direction. Crimestop, in short, means protective stupidity.

The idea of that removing knowledge of good and evil will eradicate criminal conduct is a foolhardy one. It implies that our inability to think of "bad stuff" will make us good people. No, it makes us sheep.

Every decision God makes is 100% intentional, so there was no mistake to be made to start with. He knew what the outcome would be because he knows the future. And there was no talking snake in the garden either, that "serpent" Genesis speaks of is quite plainly identified as Satan, who is not a snake, but an angelic being.

Incorrect. Lucifer was an angel, Satan was not. Technically there is no actual description of what "Satan" is except for being an adversary (to the will of God) which is basically Emmanuel Goldstein all over again. I shared that quote above for a reason. You should really read George Orwell. And how exactly does this snake play into the grand design? Why was it so imperative that he trick the kids to defy Daddy? That question is particularly important, I hope you find time to answer it.

In other words, I in fact did mention Satan, multiple times where it mattered. Whether or not he was in the garden would not have stopped what was inevitable, so therefore it really doesn't matter. If there was no angel falling into iniquity first, it was happening eventually on earth regardless.

(Revelation 12:7-9) "And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, [8] And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. [9] And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

You mentioned him in the context of Revelations (which describes a confrontation much like the Iraq war) not the "garden incident" as I specified above.

You are not the standard of what is supposed to be "moral" and "ethical", God is, and that man who was sacrificed to save billions was not just a "man", he was the word made flesh, who was God, and was with God in the beginning. I can entertain the idea that he could have just randomly picked someone out of the crowd who was "perfect and upright" and feared God, like Job to be the sacrificial lamb. However, we know the sacrifice had to be without blemish, unleavened, or untainted, and there isn't a human on earth that could have possibly fit the bill. Why? its simple, because it was by Adam, one man that sin entered the world to start with, therefore, all have sinned and come short of God's glory.

Appeal to authority fallacy.

Appeal to authority is a common type of fallacy, or an argument based on unsound logic. When writers or speakers use appeal to authority, they are claiming that something must be true because it is believed by someone who said to be an "authority" on the subject

There is no actual reason to believe that your supposed "god" is incapable of unethical conduct. And it is our DUTY to question his methods, morals and motives. We are a constitutional society.

a reply to: Dcopymope

1. If God only wanted Adam and Eve to eat from the tree of life, why bother planting the tree of the knowledge of good and evil to start with, especially knowing they were going to disobey since he is omniscient?

To get your answer you must include outside literature that is of scriptural Hebrew acceptance. Your answer is written in 4 Ezras of Hebrew literature. Ezra the scribe was the author of Ezra Reviy'iy. There are two books by Ezra named Adam v'Chuah Ri'shon and Adam v'Chuah Sheniy.

Within this literature it is explained that Adam was actually created as a light bearing creature from the earth and placed in the Gan Eden to exist by food from the Gan Eden. Adam and Chuah ate from the tree of life as light bearing creatures until sin entered into the garden through their own will. They then were expelled from the Gan Eden and their substance changed form light bearing creatures to creatures of seven layers of skin and the blood of corruption.

Till the time that corruption entered into the world Adam and Chuah had no flesh or blood and was as the angels in substance. As Adam was created from the earth and water, the earth was pure without fault and had no curse set upon it
As the earth became cursed so also was all this second creation cursed that is our universe. As it is written in 1 Corinthians 15:50, flesh and blood has no part in everlasting life and must perish.

There is no permissive will in Gan Eden, only the perfect will of the Creator can exist in the garden.