NEWS: Reclaiming America for Christ

Originally posted by Alexodin
"The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion." ~ George Washington

How's that? Clear enough?

Pretty "God" damn clear actually. But it was President Adams that actually ratified (correction) the Treaty of Tripoli after Washington left office. (But you're right Washington signed that quote too).

The preliminary treaty began with a signing on 4 November, 1796 (the end of George Washington's last term as president). Joel Barlow, the American diplomat served as counsel to Algiers and held responsibility for the treaty negotiations. Barlow had once served under Washington as a chaplain in the revolutionary army. He became good friends with Paine, Jefferson, and read Enlightenment literature. Later he abandoned Christian orthodoxy for rationalism and became an advocate of secular government. Barlow, along with his associate, Captain Richard O'Brien, et al, translated and modified the Arabic version of the treaty into English. From this came the added Amendment 11. Barlow forwarded the treaty to U.S. legislators for approval in 1797. Timothy Pickering, the secretary of state, endorsed it and John Adams concurred (now during his presidency), sending the document on to the Senate. The Senate approved the treaty on June 7, 1797, and officially ratified by the Senate with John Adams signature on 10 June, 1797. All during this multi-review process, the wording of Article 11 never raised the slightest concern. The treaty even became public through its publication in The Philadelphia Gazette on 17 June 1797.

So here we have a clear admission by the United States that our government did not found itself upon Christianity. Unlike the Declaration of Independence, this treaty represented U.S. law as all treaties do according to the Constitution (see Article VI, Sect. 2).

But it was definitely ratified US law that the US was not founded on the Christian religion. Period. The end.


[edit on 24-2-2005 by RANT]

Mr. Crowne if you look around you there is a church on every corner, multiple 24 hour gospel channels and many more multiples of television and radio broadcasts by evangelicals. The President admires Jesus as a philosopher.

It is always stunning to me when I hear that Christians are getting crap forced down there throats by non-christians.

To have your own entire country that was built exclusively for and by Christians and then to be so impotent in it is a supreme irony.

Originally posted by LadyV

Originally posted by Ryanp5555
, i'm simply saying that those who are TRULY religious tend to be more caring, atleast that is how it is in the Christian world compared to the Aethist world. .

You can not honestly believe that!? You mean caring like, hating gays, hating other religions...that kind of caring!?

LadyV,
It seems like you need to learn the difference between sins and hatred! The only ones who hate anyone of those are the ones who are the "poser" believers.

[edit on 24-2-2005 by Ryanp5555]

Originally posted by LadyV
Whatever.....again all I can say is we all can believe what we want to, but all you have to do is study and learn your history! They (the Puritans) came here for religious freedom and the phrase "Under God" wasn't even part of the original Pledge of Allegiance, but added at a much later date FYI? Sheeeeesh people! ::::::shaking head::::::

Partly you are right, but i would also like to see from where those quotes supposedly came from.... because first of all, at least the first one is partially wrong. The following is the full quote of what Washington said after kissing a bible and being sworn into office in the year 1789.

"Every man, conducting himself as a good citizen, and being accountable to God alone for his religious opinions, ought to be protected in worshipping the Deity according to the dictates of his own conscience."

He was refering to God in that speech as the deity, but wherever you took your quote from, it seems they decided to leave out a part of Washington's speech for their own agenda....

The same bible which Washington kissed and which was used to swear him into power as president, was used by other presidents and vice-presidents of the US. Even today the same tradition is followed, using a Christian bible to swear presidents and vice presidents into office.

Also, if this country was not founded with the Judeo-Christian beliefs in mind, then do tell me why we can find the following quote in one of the sacret documents which was used to declare the US an independent country.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness

Excerpted from.
www.archives.gov...

Sorry to bust your bubble LadyV, and btw freemasons can be from any religion, including Christianity.



[edit on 24-2-2005 by Muaddib]

Allthough I disagree with thier last two goals I am 100% behind the first two.

Originally posted by RANT

But it was definitely ratified US law that the US was not founded on the Christian religion. Period. The end.

[edit on 24-2-2005 by RANT]

If it was not, then why use a bible to swear in the presidents of the US, starting with George Washington?... Why not use every sacred book that exists? and why say that all men are created by one God?

If there is no mention of one deity, a creator of all men, then why do we find that both words, creator and created are found in the declaration of independence?

I have said it before, I am not a religious person, but i call it as i see it. The US was founded as a Christian nation, and the forefathers used the basic beliefs of the Judeo-Christian religion as the Declaration of Independence was written....they all signed it too.


[edit on 24-2-2005 by Muaddib]

There are a couple misconceptions that always seem to mar discussions on this subject. I doubt this will clear them up, but I've got to try anyway

First of all, a lot of people get confused about the difference between secular and atheist. This is understandable, the two are conceptually similar, but the aren't the same thing.
Secular means pertaining only to the mundane, physical world. Atheist means a refutation or rejection of any god. As a secular institution, the US government should not concern itself with the metaphysics of its citizens. Its duty is to provide a safe place where the American people can prosper. It is not to teach them the One True Way Of God™. As a secular, but not an atheist, institution, the US government must act as if it is blind to religion, neither favoring one nor hindering another. Jefferson expressed, in his own way, that the safest way to do this would be to keep government out of religious affairs entirely, and to keep religious affiars out of government entirely. This doesn't mean that the US government should be hostile to religion, in general, just that it must treat all spiritual beliefs (including atheism) as if they were equally valid as it pertains to the law. That last part is important, it means that government officials can have any opinion they like, but they must set aside personal preferences and prejudices when acting as an agent of the state. That's why the 10 Commandments monument was removed, and why teachers cannot lead prayers in the classroom when acting as the teacher. Their position of authority, however limited it may seem, suggests that the US government backs their particular religious views.
As a secular institution, when the US government acts in a hostile manner towards a particular religion it is just as wrong as when it acts in a favorable manner.


Second, a lot of people conflate "A majority of US citizens are Christian" with "The US is a Christian nation." The first is certainly true, the second not at all. Of 208,000 respondants to the 2000 US Census, 160,000 identified themselves as Christian of one denomination or another. But that, in and of itself, doesn't mean the US is a Christian nation. Were we to follow that logic, we would also be a Female nation (143,000 women to 138,000 men), a 35-39 year old nation, or a Californian nation (largest population). Our citizens are, by and large, Christian, but that doesn't mean that our government should be an Earthly embodiment of Christian faith.

Were the US a Christian nation, I think it would be quite obvious to anyone. Take a look at the other theocracies (which is what the US must be, if it is a Christian Nation) that exist, or have recently existed: Israel, Afghanistan prior to 2001, Iran. No matter what your opinions on the individual countries, it was obvious to anyone, no matter how obtuse, that the governments of these countries promoted one specific type of religion over others. In some cases, such as Shia-led Iran, or Wahabist Afghanistan, it was a single sect of a particular religion. In others it was the base religion as a whole, such as Israel which promotes Judaism whether it's Orthodox, Hassidic, or some of the more progressive sects. In each case, codified in the governments' documents, are passages that specify the promotion of one particular spiritual view.
The US government doesn't have this. We have some generic wording about God and a Creator, but neither Jesus, YHWH, nor even Jehova is mentioned in our founding documents. I think that if the founders of the US had wanted it to be a Christian nation, the would have explicitly stated that. It was not the fashion at the time to vaguely allude to an indefinite creator when you really wanted to promote the Trinity, take a look at Descartes' works, he's pretty specific as to which God he's talking about.

And in any case, even had the Founding Fathers intended to have the US be a Christian nation, that idea failed. We are not a Christian nation, at least not currently. We are a secular, plurilist nation, and if you don't like that, then you can bloody well leave my country.

okay, guys, help me out here, where does the constitution, or the ammendments, or the declaration of independence refer to the Christian God? I've done a search on all three documents, and this is what I've found, in the Declaration of Independence.......

-------------------

"When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one
people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them
with another, and to assume among the Powers of the earth, the
separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of
Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of
mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel
them to the separation."

--------------------
It refers to "Nature's God"..............
and.....
--------------------

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created
equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain
unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the
pursuit of Happiness."
----------------------
which refers to our "creator"
----------------------

Gee, do you think there was a reason why they were so ambiguous in their reference?
Like ummm.......maybe they were just sick and tired of watching people be killed over some sort of disagreement in individual belief systems?
Which, gee, most of the fighting, I do beleive were over christian beliefs.
so which segment is our country founded on? Catholic, Lutheran, Pentacoastal?

Originally posted by Whiskey Jack
..................
And in any case, even had the Founding Fathers intended to have the US be a Christian nation, that idea failed. We are not a Christian nation, at least not currently. We are a secular, plurilist nation, and if you don't like that, then you can bloody well leave my country.

Partially you are right. But you are overgeneralizing as you slowly try to push your own view, but the facts speak for themselves.

First of all, it is true that most immigrants who came to this nation, when it started as a colony of the English, were doing it because they wanted freedom of religion....but what were they? A large majority called themselves Puritants, but they still had the same basic beliefs as the Christian faith.

Back then there was persecution against every "branch of Christianity" all over Europe. They were essentially persecuting each other, because people were part of different sects of Christianity....dumb, but this is a fact.

That's one of the reasons that started the immigration to the States. This was not only happening in England, but in Europe as well, but even though they all are branches of "Christianity", their members saw their respective faith as a different religion, to the point that they would punish people who were part of other sects in the most inhumane ways.

It is also true that the forefathers wanted no religion, they saw the different sects as different religions, to be the official one, because there were many sects, each and everyone which claimed they were the true religion. But the basic belief that is engraved in the Declaration of Independence says the tenet of faith which was shared by everyone, who followed one sect or another of "Christianity", and which is the foundation of this nation.

The Declaration of Independence does not say, that all men are created by many Gods, or that humans are a byproduct of evolution.... It clearly states...

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness

Do note that Creator is capitalized.

If you don't like it.....well, you can follow your own advice.

---edited for errors---



[edit on 24-2-2005 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by dawnstar
okay, guys, help me out here, where does the constitution, or the ammendments, or the declaration of independence refer to the Christian God? I've done a search on all three documents, and this is what I've found, in the Declaration of Independence.......

How many Gods did the different sects of Christianity were following?....
Did every sect follow a different Creator? or did they have a common Creator but thought their respective sects were the ones teaching the true faith of the Creator?

Originally posted by dawnstar
-------------------

"When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one
people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them
with another, and to assume among the Powers of the earth, the
separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of
Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of
mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel
them to the separation."

--------------------
It refers to "Nature's God"..............

So what exactly are you claiming with the above?

I really hope you are not suggesting they are talking in here about paganism...

I have nothing against paganism, but that is not what they are refering to in that quote.... You do know what happened to pagans in those times don't you? and what the different sects of Christianity thought about pagans....

Originally posted by dawnstar
and.....
--------------------

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created
equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain
unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the
pursuit of Happiness."
----------------------
which refers to our "creator"
----------------------

Again, what are you trying to say above?... Yes they are talking about the Creator...every Christian sect saw one Creator, and that Creator is God.

Originally posted by dawnstar
Gee, do you think there was a reason why they were so ambiguous in their reference?
Like ummm.......maybe they were just sick and tired of watching people be killed over some sort of disagreement in individual belief systems?
Which, gee, most of the fighting, I do beleive were over christian beliefs.
so which segment is our country founded on? Catholic, Lutheran, Pentacoastal?

Ah, you pretty much hit it in the nail in this last comment. There were so many Christian sects, that they did not want to proclaim just one as the right one, but wanted people to have the freedom to follow whichever sect (religion) they wanted to. Still....they proclaimed that men were created by one Creator.... the main tenets of the Judeo-Christian faith. That men were created, by one Creator.

---edited for errors---


[edit on 24-2-2005 by Muaddib]

I guess before we get too far into the question of the Founding Fathers' intent, we need to first establish their status in regards to the question.[1]

For myself, I see the FF as wise, well-educated men who were trying to create the best society they could. I do not see them, however, as prophets of God's will for governmental affairs. Because of this, one should take their words for what they are: wise, but not divinely inspired, guidance.

Because of this, I think it's safe to say that even if (and note that I'm not conceeding that point yet) Washington, Jefferson, et all intended the US to have a Christian, rather than secular, government, that is not the way things worked out. We can't, at this point, simply call "Do Overs" and wipe away 230 years of legal precedent.

[1] I prefer to frame the discussion this way, rather than over the question of the Constitution as "Living Document." That term has become too loaded, and the sides too set in their trenches to be really useful.[2]

[2] Yes, useful. I'm willing to be convinced that my current opinions are wrong, and have been in the past in good online discussions. It's not frequent, but the possibility exists

most of the indians that were living here long before columbus came over believed in one creator also.....and well, we know what happened to them, don't we....
the indians, who by the way not only helped the first settlers adapt to this land, but also helped them win their independence from Britain....so, I guess, as a reward for all their help, our founding fathers decided to turn their land into a christian country?? kind of doubt that....
and well, according to the Iroquois (sp!!!) up here. there are many ideas expressed in that constitution that came from them.....so....well...
sorry , don't buy it...

Originally posted by dawnstar
the indians, who by the way not only helped the first settlers adapt to this land, but also helped them win their independence from Britain....so, I guess, as a reward for all their help, our founding fathers decided to turn their land into a christian country?? kind of doubt that....
and well, according to the Iroquois (sp!!!) up here. there are many ideas expressed in that constitution that came from them.....so....well...
sorry , don't buy it...

Dawn..... the history of what was done to the native Americans is one of the darkest, but it is also a part on how this nation started. You do know that since white men came to the States the native Americans were pretty much exploited, enslaved and murdered....and you are here telling us that the Declaration of Independence was written with the native Americans in mind?.... Many nations (Indian) fought for us, and many nations also fought against us, but at the end the way they were paid was by relocating them to swamps in South Florida, or pretty much killing them unfortunately.

Ok, let me give an account by a native American as to what the Pilgrims did to them, and then tell me the declaration of independence was written with them in mind....

This is just a part of the text and the site.

The whites went after the Wampanoag with guns, swords, cannons, and torches. Most, including Metacomet, were butchered. His wife and son were sold into slavery in the West Indies. His body was hideously drawn and quartered.

For twenty-five years afterward, Metacomet's skull was displayed on a pike above the whites' village. The real legacy of the Pilgrim Fathers is treachery.
Most Americans today believe that Thanksgiving celebrates a boar harvest,
but that is not so.

By 1970, the Wampanoag had turned up a copy of a Thanksgiving proclamation made by the governor of the colony, the text revealed the ugly truth:
After a colonial militia had returned from murdering the men, women,
and children of an Indian village, the governor proclaimed a holiday
and feast to give thanks for the massacre. He encouraged other colonies
to do likewise-in other words, every autumn the crops are in,
go kill Indians and celebrate your murders with a feast.

Excerpted from.
www.btigerlily.net...




[edit on 24-2-2005 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by Whiskey Jack

.........
For myself, I see the FF as wise, well-educated men who were trying to create the best society they could. I do not see them, however, as prophets of God's will for governmental affairs. Because of this, one should take their words for what they are: wise, but not divinely inspired, guidance.
..........

The question still stands, if they were intent on not making any religious beliefs as part of the founding of the nation...why would they proclaim that all men are created equal by the Creator in the declaration of independence?

If they wanted to, i am pretty sure they would not have mentioned that "all men were created equal by a Creator."

hey, you're the ones claiming that they were chirstians, and formed their government and country to be christian, I believe,.....so....
since it was a christian country, ruled by christian doctrine, shall I assume that it was the christian religion that committed these attrocities, and much more?

just one of the many benefits of keeping church and state separate......God isn't blamed for the stupidity of people!!!

and, well, are you saying that since the original intention of the constitution wasn't to extend the idea that the basic rights of life, liberty, and the persuit of happiness that had been endowed onto the african american by his creator, we should find it perfectly acceptable to deny them these rights and enslave them again?






[edit on 24-2-2005 by dawnstar]

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne

Originally posted by soficrow
namehere - I'm an equal opportunity slammer. Really.

IMO - This world is big enough for everyone. There's no need to fight; no need to make everyone over like you. No need to push anyone around.


.

As far as the nation is concerned, go build your own. We Christians are tired of the crap you non-Christians shove down our throats in our own nation.

Ohmyohmy. You do make a LOT of assumptions there, Thomas m'boy. Just to set the record straight:


1. I am American by birth.

2. My father was Catholic, my mother Greek Orthodox, and I was baptized Catholic.

3. I grew up in a small town next door to a fundamentalist church, the only church in town, and that's where we worshipped every Sunday.

4. I was saved every single Sunday from the age of 5 through the age of 8, to my father's great embarrassment.

5. After the church closed, my parents still wanted me to have a religious education so they sent me to a nearby town for Lutheran confirmation classes.

6. I was confirmed Lutheran at the age of 14.


SO - I am born American, I've been "saved" over 200 times, baptized Catholic and confirmed Lutheran.


I ask you Thomas, How much more American or Christian can anyone get?


And really Thomas, This world is big enough for everyone. There's no need to fight; no need to make everyone over like you. No need to push anyone around. ...Unless of course you have some kind of dominance agenda...


.

this post is kinda gettin off topic but anyways
u know as many problems the christians have with the people who are already christian, why go around spreading the "faith"?? i mean priests are molesting little kids and then go convert some dude in south america?? dont make sense to me...

oh yeh, originally the indians inhabited america and the relegion was unique to a certain area inhabited by a certain tribe

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne


Well, you see, sof, this nation was built by the Christians.

Not true...

I've been over this many times before and I'll not give the class again. Nobody is saying the entire world has to be a believer in God - yet.

Then what's so special about the United States that it has to be so, in your own opinion?

When everyone does kneel in His prescence, it'll be in His time and by His hand, not by the hand of us Christians.

Won't happen.

As far as the nation is concerned, go build your own. We Christians are tired of the crap you non-Christians shove down our throats in our own nation.

It's the nation of every person who has the nationality of that nation. Regardless of religion. If it would not be so, then it would be no better than Afghanistan during the Taliban reign.

Originally posted by dawnstar

hey, you're the ones claiming that they were chirstians, and formed their government and country to be christian, I believe,.....so....

What i was saying is that the tenet of the basic faith of Christianity appears in the Declaration of Independence.

You obviously did not understand that i was saying that back in those days there were many different "sects" of Christianity, which each believed each and every one of them were a different religion because they wanted independence.... and i did not say that every forefather was Christian, although quite a few were, but they all signed the Declaration of Independence which has the basic belief of the Judeo-Christian faith.

Originally posted by dawnstar
since it was a christian country, ruled by christian doctrine, shall I assume that it was the christian religion that committed these attrocities, and much more?

just one of the many benefits of keeping church and state separate......God isn't blamed for the stupidity of people!!!

Yes, in the past Christianity did it's share of murder, but if you are going to put the past as an excuse, then perhaps i should put up a list of all the attrocities done by pretty much almost every religion in the world, some of which are still doing it today, and also the bloody history of how every country in the world have in their history genocide, wars, etc...and btw, not all these conflicts and skeletons in the closet of every nation in the world was done because of religion.

Originally posted by dawnstar
and, well, are you saying that since the original intention of the constitution wasn't to extend the idea that the basic rights of life, liberty, and the persuit of happiness that had been endowed onto the african american by his creator, we should find it perfectly acceptable to deny them these rights and enslave them again?
[edit on 24-2-2005 by dawnstar]

Did i say that anywhere? no? then, does that anwser your question?....

[edit on 24-2-2005 by Muaddib]